Christmas Lunch Planning

[sarah w]

I am looking for help on alternative christmas lunches, it is the 1st year in our 1st home and we are entertaining. My boyfriend is a chef so we are more than prepared to try something different.

I have been thinking about goose but i have no idea what it taste likes, what to put with it, how much it costs etc. We have lots of reference books at home we could look at but i thought it would be nice to ask the "experts"

Any input is welcolme on previous christmas dinners you have cooked, been to etc both good and bad.

Do you always have starters? if so what

what other dishes have you had other than turkey.brussels etc?

desserts?

Thanks

sarah x

[PoppySeedBagel]

I heartily recommend goose - it's delicious - really tasty! I use Simon Hopkinson's method, involving pricking the skin and pouring hot water over the skin the night before , so all the fat runs out so it's not very greasy. He stuffs with potato and serves with apple and prune. The details are I think in his book Gammon and Spinach

[jackal10]

Goose has surprisingly little meat on it, but a lot of glorious fat.

Two greedy people can easily eat a goose, but you could stretch it to 4 plus kids with sausages, stuffings etc

[MobyP]

Last year I did a Gooken - a deboned goose stuffed with a deboned chicken - and it went a long way. Also - the next day we had the leftovers for the best sheperds pie in the history of mankind. It takes a little time, but it's fun. And it frees up the bones to make jus with.

Also, there's a great looking recipe in the new Fernley-Whittingstall book that makes a stuffed goose neck ballotine - I'd defenitley like to try something along those lines.

Also - I was shown a really good brussel sprouts recipe (specifically for people who hate them) that is finished with pecans, maple syrup, and grapes - it sounds odd, but I've never seen a platter of sprouts emptied so quickly. It was scary. PM me if you'd like the recipe.

[Jonathan Day]

Moby, I'd love to see your sprouts recipe. I think there are threads in eGullet with some interesting sprouts treatments -- roasted, the leaves removed, etc.

A few years ago we did two geese at Christmas: one classically roasted, the other braised with sauerkraut, Alsatian-style. The sauerkraut goose was delicious; the grownups couldn't stop eating it but the children found it daunting. It was done in advance, the liquid taken off and defatted and the meat removed from the bones. Unfortunately the fat that cooked with the sauerkraut picked up its flavour, and had to be discarded; but we had enormous amounts of fat

Last year we had a smaller group at Christmas, so we served a capon, stuffed with boudin blanc, foie gras and truffles and slow-roasted.

[Andy Lynes]

I have also cooked Hopkinson's Goose (as it were) a couple of times at Christmas and the recipe is a cracker. The meat is very rich however, and all the usual trimmings make for an even heavier meal than usual.

[MobyP]

Last year we had a smaller group at Christmas, so we served a capon, stuffed with boudin blanc, foie gras and truffles and slow-roasted.

Holy Cow, Jonathan - that sounds amazing. Please - long lists of adjectives, followed by a few nouns, and the odd piece of punctuation...

Was it your recipe? I saw a foie gras stuffing for Capon in the Robuchon book - did you adapt it? Was it a (now infamous) Dove's Capon? And where did you get the boudin blanc (not to mention the truffles and the foie gras)?

I had a starter course of butternut squash tortelli with shaved white truffles, but nothing like that capon caper.

Please tell all. I'll write down that sprouts recipe.

[sarah w]

I found the capon recipe in Robuchon's book, looks very good.

What is capon like (is it a castrated chicken?)

i would love the brussels recipe, sounds great

sarah

[Jonathan Day]

I can't claim much credit for the hard parts of this one.

A capon is indeed a castrated chicken. They tend to be larger and fatter than the usual chicken.

This one was a chapon de Bresse from our French butcher. I asked for a farce (stuffing) based on the one he used for boudins blancs: I think this one was mostly chicken breast, cream and eggs. You can also do boudins blancs with veal or with pork, or a combination of meats. His version was exceptionally light and creamy. "Shall I put in some foie gras, for richness?" he asked, "and a truffle?" I assented to both. The final bird was in demi-deuil, or half-mourning, with thin slices of truffle inserted under the skin, and of course the diced truffle in the stuffing. Being able to get products like this is one of the joys of dealing with an artisanal butcher in France. A good butcher in London will happily procure you a capon, if you order in advance.

I slow-roasted this one for a long time, in dry heat at, I think, 70C.

In retrospect, I wish I had browned the skin with a blowtorch either before starting or just after it came out of the oven. Doing this again, I would cook the stuffing separately from the capon, because it took a long time for the stuffing to get to the right temperature; also I would have rested it longer than I did before carving.

Still, it was good and juicy and the truffle flavour came right through.

[MobyP]

I sent the recipe this evening. If anyone else would like it, let me know.

Jonathan - you have me absolutely intrigued about finding a capon now (and maybe one from Bresse!). Do you know how big they come? The best ways of dealing with them etc.? Always low heat? Do they dry out like turkeys, or are they more like chickens?

Have you seen them in the UK? And what magic do they know in Bresse that was lost to the rest of the world?

[Jonathan Day]

Dove's or Moen's, to name two butchers I have used, will source a capon for you, through it will probably be British and not from Bresse.

Bresse poultry is world famous -- like wines, their chickens have an appelation d'origine controlée (AOC), with strict standards both for the way they are raised and for the appearance of the products that are sold. This is the only AOC applied to poultry in any country in the world. Hence you will see poulet de Bresse identified on restaurant menus, in the same way that British restaurants are starting to identify specific pork breeds like Gloucester Old Spot. But it's more than just a breed: like other "industrial clusters" (ceramics in certain parts of Italy; printing equipment and inks in Germany) an area like Bresse will have a lot of inbuilt lore and knowledge about the best way to raise chickens.

There are three official subclasses: poulet (young bird, 1.4 to 2.4 kg), poularde (older, fattened hen, at least 1.6 kg) or chapon (castrated male, at least 2.5 kg).

For a presentation in French on Bresse poultry, see this.

For a badly spelled but factually accurate presentation in English, this will do.

The Roux brothers once had a butcher/traiteur in Chelsea that would source Bresse chickens. It closed a few years ago. I don't know that there is another. But there are fine British producers, and if I were cooking a capon here, that's where I would turn.

A capon makes an ideal Christmas bird for a small family -- it will be about 4-5 kg. They are fattier than turkeys and don't have the same problems with the breast meat drying out. I've been slow-roasting meats and poultry a lot over the past year or so, but this is just a personal idiosyncrasy. It's also very difficult to slow-roast with most home ovens, because they will not maintain a steady heat below about 100C. You could easily roast a capon on high heat (220C) in the traditional way: I would recommend it be done unstuffed (or with just a bit of flavouring inside); trussed, of course, in the tricky new Chef Fowke/eGullet way.

[MobyP]

I've seen poulet de Bresse in both Harvey Nicks and Harrods. I guess I'll have to ask about the Capons.

Thanks, Jonathan.

[Jonathan Day]

Ah, yes, Harrods. Or, as they say in French, 'Arrods. I had forgotten about them.

One more poulet de Bresse story. I had ordered one last year, and had come to the butcher shop to collect it. When you get a chicken in a fine French butcher, it typically arrives with head and feet intact, in part so that you can see the feet (les pattes) which in the case of a poulet de Bresse must be blue -- as distinct from the black legged chickens that are also highly sought after. The shop will then chop off the head and feet, remove any remaining feathers, and truss (brider) the bird to your specifications.

The shop was full, there was a long queue, and the butcher was busily cutting up a lamb. When I reached the head of the queue, the apprentice was the one to serve me. He collected the chicken and started to dress it. The butcher spotted him, dropped the lamb, grabbed the chicken and insisted on doing it himself. "C'est un poulet de Bresse," he said, brandishing a blowtorch, "il faut le respecter" -- "This is a Bresse chicken! Show some respect for it!"

And that, in a nutshell, is why, even in these days of Flunch and McDo's, you can still eat very well in France.

[MobyP]

Look what I found. The testimonials (from Michel Roux, Rowley Leigh (sp?) etc) sound pretty impressive.

I emailed them, asking if they ever do Capons. I'll let you know the response.

Edited November 4, 2003 by MobyP (log)

[MobyP]

"No, we don’t sell capons – it is illegal to caponise birds now. And, yes, as regards chickens and guinea fowl it is the same price regardless of weight.

Regards,

Susie Charles"

[JasonCampbell]

You wont get a proper capon in the UK, but it's reasonably easy to get a Bresse chicken, although you might be disappointed by what £20 gets you as regards to size. The same could be said of goose, it looks big enough when you buy it but there's a shock in store for the unwary when they come to serve it. In my opinion the best reason to buy a goose is for the fat, you'll struggle to serve 6 with even the biggest goose, your roast potatoes will be divine however.

At the moment I'm minded towards a good chicken (or two), I'm no fan of turkey and I will have had my fill of game by Christmas. A possible alternative might be a nice (ridiculously priced) bit of Welsh Black Beef, if I get my arse into gear and order it in time.

[MobyP]

A possible alternative might be a nice (ridiculously priced) bit of Welsh Black Beef, if I get my arse into gear and order it in time.

What is this?

[JasonCampbell]

A possible alternative might be a nice (ridiculously priced) bit of Welsh Black Beef, if I get my arse into gear and order it in time.

What is this?

It's beef, from a Welsh breed of cattle. Over the last few decades it has risen to prominence as one of the best slabs of meat in the world, upsetting the French and Scottish in the process. The animal is black, hence the name. It's expensive, but worth it in my opinion. I find that you have to order it well in advance, or you don't get the best.

Here's a link that might be of interest.Taste test

[MobyP]

And where do you find it in London?

[JasonCampbell]

Wouldn't have a clue sorry, I live in Gloucestershire and have no knowledge of London's provender's stock.

[MobyP]

Apologies.

[Jonathan Day]

I will ask at Dove's this weekend about sourcing a capon -- a real one, not a "large chicken"; I guess it would have to be ordered from outside the UK.

I've checked a DEFRA document on surgical castration of fowl and it is indeed illegal here. Don't know when this came into effect.

[MobyP]

Jonathan -

that would definitely get a gold star in your book.

Thanks.

[JasonCampbell]

The Welfare of Livestock (Prohibited Operations) Regulations 1982 SI No 1884, stops the UK from cutting the knackers off chickens. Although I'm pretty sure the chemical castration of the cock (a Caponette) was banned before this.

[Jonathan Day]

I'm starting to think we should retitle this thread: "about capons".

I asked Mr Dove, the grouchy but very knowledgeable butcher, about capons.

"We can get you a bird called a capon, but it's really a large chicken," he said. (I should add that Doves' large chickens are very, very good -- lots of meat, great flavour.)

He warned that many so-called capons are chemically altered, by giving them testosterone injections. "You don't want those. They don't taste good and God knows what they will do to you."

I asked whether he could order a surgically caponised bird from France.

"I don't buy French poultry," he said, adding, after a short pause, "except for duck breasts." And guinea fowl, I thought, but decided that discretion was the better part of valour.

So no chapon de Bresse from Dove & Son, Butchers. I'll ask at Harrods next time I am there.