Lecithin

[twodogs]

i spent the otherday getting strange looks at the health food store asking for lecithin (a soy granule), sodium alginate and calcium chloride. (this geling system is also brilliant, my mind is currently tripping over the possibilities )

anyway, i mixed the lecithin with watermelon juice and frothed with a hand mixer and generated a stable cold froth(per michael's relay of information he got from johnny innuzi sp)

well that was successful but what is next with this product? i here it also has great emulsifying properties.

let me know what you know

cheers

[Michael Laiskonis]

twodogs, can you elaborate on the process you used to create that watermelon froth? Did you heat the watermelon juice, or did the lecithin readily dissolve? What proportion of lecithin to juice did you use? And was there a perceptible taste? Was this for a 'sweet' or 'savory' application?

A few of us briefly discussed the role of lecithin in chocolate couverture here, and its use as an emulsifier, its properties of repelling moisture, and its ability to increase fluidity.

I, too, am quite intrigued by the sodium alginate/calcium chloride technique, though I have so much on my plate right now, I don't see myself playing around with it too soon.

Isn't it ironic, that as so many chefs continue to distance themselves from industrial/mass market food production, a few of us twisted souls are looking to exploit their tools of the trade for the good of haute cuisine? Lecithin, pectins, ascorbic and citric acids, all manner of gums... Not to mention the role of dehydrated products, from milk/yogurt powder to powdered glucose, powdered honey and beyond. I think we should be looking closer at all of these.

What about carrageenan/irish moss? Back in my homebrew experiments years ago, I remember using this stuff to clarify my beer. What other low temperature clarifying possibilities exist in our kitchens? Anyone mess around with this?

[Bicycle Lee]

it would seem apparent that the use of carageenan in creating smooth and consistent purees would be a great utilization of the product. And if calcium chloride reacts with the alginate, then it would also seem apparent that it would react in some way with the carageenan. I don't KNOW, because I have never tried to use these items, but it would be an interesting experiment. My friend who is a chemist at the local cancer institute said that in experiments where he uses calcium chloride he can always substitute magnesium chloride with no adverse reactions since magnesium is right above calcium on the PT. Perhaps there could be uses for it as well as it's calcium counterpart...

Really, the possibilities are endless....I also believe that those who scoff at such techniques are afraid.

great post!

[twodogs]

with regards to my initial experiments with lecithin: two grams of lecithin were buzzed into 500 ml watermelon juice in a cold state

the lecithin seemed to be absorbed easily

taste of lecithin had slight milky sweetness by itself but note noticeable in the final aplication which was served over watermelon pearls as a pre dessert (note that watermelon pearls were made with sodium alginate and looked nearly identical to trout roe)

it seems the use of lecithin can be used to eliminate fats normally used in creating froths thus allowing for a more intense flavor of the frothed product

with regards to irish moss i have just seen a recipe from fanny farmer 1918 which uses it in a blanc-manage (sweet but could be made savory)

how is irish moss used in clarification?

what is a source for dehydrated yoghurt and honey? could we make dip sticks greek desserts?

has anyone tried the lecithin in hot preperations, if so what are the results?

cheers

[Bicycle Lee]

for the watermelon pearls, how exactly did you produce them? In what concentrations did you add the sodium alginate? When immersing in the calcium chloride, how did you drop the liquid in?

[Hobbes]

Hey Bicycle Lee,

I have not had the chance to experiment with the gelling properties of sodium alginate and calcium chloried but there has been a thread on egullet about how Ferran Adria, of El Bulli, makes his fruit caviars.

The egullet member Inventolux who is a wealth of culinary information shed light on to this fruit caviar process in this above thread.

Hope this helps

Hobbes

[gsquared]

According to McGee, the composition of an egg is:

50% water, 16% protein, 10% lecithin, 22% fat by weight, 2% cholesterol.

Should it not be possible to simply take an egg white, add in the correct proportions of lecithin and fat and use that to make an yolk-less emulsion sauce such as mayo? I remember trying this some time ago, with soya lecitin, but could not succeed in getting the concoction to thicken.

Edited September 21, 2003 by gsquared (log)

[twodogs]

yes, the initial experiments into the flavor pearls were a direct result of inventolux's post which referenced the ratio between sodium alginate and calcium chloride solution

from this stepping stone we have increased the amount of liquid to sodium alginate to make a more delicate pearl ie exploding, but i think we must also reduce the amount of calcium chloride in the forming solution

as of now we mixed two grams of alginate into 150 ml of liquid (watermelon juice) the calcium bath was one gram to 100 ml of water

back to lecithin--though actually a broader discussion of food science and its discoveries is welcome and encouraged

new sauce: 250 ml charenteis melon juice infused with fresh ginger, 150 ml whole milk yoghurt (strauss family farms), 2g lecithin salt and lime juice to balance frothed beautifully and held froth as a topping for warm smoked tubot with charentais melon mini-parisians marinated in garden herb puree

curious about lecithins emulsification properties?

what else are cooks doing with it?

cheers

[Michael Laiskonis]

According to McGee, the composition of an egg is:

50% water, 16% protein, 10% lecithin, 22% fat by weight, 2% cholesterol.

Should it not be possible to simply take an egg white, add in the correct proportions of lecithin and fat and use that to make an yolk-less emulsion sauce such as mayo? I remember trying this some time ago, with soya lecitin, but could not succeed in getting the concoction to thicken.

It is my guess that all the lecithin in an egg is found in the yolk. However, I recall Hervé This, or Blumenthal, or some other principal of the Molecular Gastronomy 'group' was able to acheive an egg white-based mayonaisse (thus without the lecithin- though I encourage someone to prove me wrong!) The result was 'clean' in flavor, yet not necessarily 'delicious'.

I'll look around to see what I can dig up from my MG files, at least to answer this particular question. Meanwhile there is a ton of interesting information here.

Might I quickly add (also with the help of Harold McGee) that lecithin is a phospholipid, which "resembles a fatty acid in that it is water soluble at the head and fat soluble at the tail..." Lecithin is the emulsifying powerhouse of an egg yolk, of which it makes up about 30%. It acts like a 'soap', preventing oil droplets from coalescing in water. Given that an egg yolk will emulsify both hot and cold preparations, and with the results of twodogs' initial experiment, I think we could also say the same of soy-derived lecithin- works hot or cold.

Also in On Food and Cooking, McGee simply offers that "such 'surface-acting' molecules have many other applications as well" but only mentions its use in the baking industry as an anti-staling agent. In other chapters, he refers to both its role in chocolate, as already discussed, but also of the trace amounts found in cream, and thus its role in butter.

So, aside from its straightforward emulsifying properties, how exactly does it produce a stable foam with a simple fruit juice, without added fats? Is it this 'soapy' quality in the lecithin itself that is responsible?

Sure, more questions, but perhaps more answers will result...

I'll look around to see what I can dig up from my MG files, at least to answer these particular questions. Meanwhile there is a ton of interesting information here.

[gsquared]

I repeated the mayo experiment yesterday - still no luck. The mixture emulsified beautifully, but would not thicken. Looking at McG again -

"The large protein molecules, together with even larger yolk particles, composed of both fat and proteins, obstruct the movement of water molecules in the liquid, and so make the liquid yolk itself seem thick and viscous. It's this inherent thickness of the yolk that is largely responsible for the thickness of the yolk-based sauces."

So - the lecithin on its own will do the emulsification, but not produce a thick sauce.

Oh well...

[twodogs]

what is your current ratio for your yolkless mayonaise?

cheers

[gsquared]

what is your current ratio for your yolkless mayonaise?

cheers

what is your current ratio for your yolkless mayonaise?

I worked on a 20g yolk, and used 14g egg white (for the protein and the water), 2g lecithin. and 5g fat.

[Michael Laiskonis]

Going back a bit, twodogs asked for some info on powders. Here is a general discussion with a link to a source. We then spoke specifically about a sweetcorn powder Heston Blumenthal has used.

With regard to the yolk-less mayo issue, I dug up an Hervé This demo. It's in French, but I think I get the general thrust of the concept at work- the unrolling strands of the protein molecules in the whites are what makes it work. Not too far removed from This' 'chocolate chantilly' or a whipped gelatin base. In this case though, I can't quite discern whether trace amounts of lecithin are involved at all... Perhaps someone with a few moments to spare could run the page through a translation engine, and share the results with the rest of us.

La mayonaisse subversive montée aux blancs d'oeuf.

By the way, Bertrand Simon is an associate of This, and has documented many of his projects. There is a lot to look at on the rest of his site. Click on anything having to do with MG or This.

[melkor]

english translation.