Improving my cooking skills (2003)

[MatthewB]

Great post, Seth!

Some thoughts . . .

-- Potatoes

I believe that a traditional boulangere utilizes beef stock. I'd try this again but with that stock rather than chicken.

Also, I would use a heavy half-sheet jellyroll pan (rather than a gratin dish) & reduce the amount of stock accordingly.

As far as garlic, I too sliced thinly but I didn't find the dish too garlicky.

I didn't soak the potatoes at all. Did I miss something?

-- Chicken

I, too, learned a bit from the sauteeing. I was surprised by how quickly the chicken cooked.

And, I also wonder about the strengths/weaknesses of a fricasse versus roasting.

Christmas list: poultry shears added (edit: or cleaver?)

Edited October 27, 2003 by MatthewB (log)

[marie-louise]

I thought the chicken dish was very tasty, although like Heather I thought the sauce was rather alcoholic.  I wondered afterward if this quality would have changed if we'd cooked it not completely covered but instead with the cover somewhat askew, as Marcella Hazan always has you do it...

My last question about the chicken was why?  Why do we sautee/fricassee this way, when we can roast?  Roasting produces a superior texture in the meat and crispy, tasty skin.  The only advantage produced by the fricassee that I can think of is the sauce, which I'm guessing has a richer, more stock-like quality than a quick sauce made from deglazing a roasting pan would have.  And the whole chicken gets infused with the flavor of the sauce, as well, which you could never do with a roasted bird.  What do you guys think?  Is that flavor difference worth the other disadvantages?

A few years ago I found what I think is the best technique for Braised Chicken. I got the idea from The Bay Wolf Cookbook, and have since adapted any and all braised chicken recipes to this method:

1) Saute the aromatics/ vegetables in an oven-proof pan until they are somewhat softened (that way the chicken doesn't get overcooked by the time the vegetables are done.)

2) Deglaze the pan w/ wine or Marsala. (that way some of the alcohol cooks off.)

3) Add the stock, bring to a boil.

4) Place the chicken parts-don't skin them-on top of the aromatics. I just buy thighs if it is the two of us, or thighs/legs. This is key-the liquid needs to come part way up the pan, but NOT cover the chicken. (Notice I am not browning the chicken.)

5) Place the pan in the oven, bake for 45 minutes at 350 convect. The chicken will be tender and best of all, the skin will be crispy because the top has roasted the whole time. (I never liked how the skin gets flabby when it cooks covered.)

6) Take the chicken out, keep it warm, and if required, degrease and/or reduce the sauce. Depending on the recipe, sometimes I add a little cream or creme fraiche.

You can adapt any of the thousands of braised chicken recipes to this, and you will always end up with tender chicken with a crispy skin and a flavorful sauce.

[Dave the Cook]

Wow. What a great series of posts. This is exactly the sort of thing I was hoping this would be.

Chicken

Great picture, Heather. I suspected that chives wouldn't add much to the flavor (I had forgotten them, and used some thiinly sliced scallion tops. But you have to admit that the chives add a nice visual touch; your picture is perfect evidence. Like you, I'd try tarragon next time, but maybe I'd keep the chives just for their visual appeal.

Yes, the breasts were to be boneless. As Seth points out, the bone-in breast makes for uneven heating, thanks to the arched ribcage. But that's easy to work around, I think (I find that making an extra turn, so the breast cooks on the thick edge for a couple of minutes, does the trick), and next time I'd probably split the breast and leave the meat on the bone.

I didn't have the alcohol issues with the sauce, although I anticipated them. As I was pouring the wine into the pan, I was thinking, "Man, is this all that goes in here? And then we're supposed to cover it? None of the alcohol will evaporate." But no one commented on it at dinner; in fact, we were wishing I'd taken the time to heat up a loaf of bread to soak it up. I cook with wine a lot, so maybe we're used to it. Or maybe it was the type of wine? I used an inexpensive Sauvignon Blanc -- Woodbridge, I think. What did everyone else use?

Potatoes

I used Yukon Golds. Since we were down to three people, I halved the recipe and used a 5-cup Corning Ware dish. At an hour, the top wasn't brown, so I gave it another 15 minutes, then let it sit on the counter for probably another 15. While no one liked it as much as a gratin made with some sort of dairy, it was OK, and certainly lacked the calories of something made with milk, butter and cheese. The potatoes were kind of overdone, though, because of the extra time needed to brown. I didn't have the soupiness problem. That makes me the odd man out, and I'm wondering why.

One issue is the dish, I think. Cook's Illustrated makes a point in their The Best Recipe that the shape and size of the dish can make all the difference in the world. I think that's especially true when you're working with a gratin that relies entirely on absorption; gratins with dairy in them also thicken because the milk proteins curdle and thicken the sauce. I think if I had used a pan with a smaller footprint, the potatoes would have needed the longer time to cook through, and so would have been done at the same time as the top browned. If we really want to dissect this recipe, we should all provide more details on the pan. I think Marie-Louise's experience of faster-than-expected cooking is telling, as is Matthew's suggestion to go to something shallower.

Another issue is the type of potato. It seems to me that a medium-moisture potato like the Yukon Gold works best. Heather's red potatoes, which are very high in moisture, didn't absorb much stock -- they were pretty much waterlogged from the start. Seth's russets are so low in moisture that the potato sucks up all the stock, then disintegrates.

I could see a place for this dish in my set of regular menus, but I would have to bulletproof it. I like the fact that it's low in fat, which makes it a good choice for menus that already have a lot of tongue-coating triglycerides. Obviously, the quality of your stock will make a huge difference. Matthew's idea of using beef stock also makes it somewhat adaptable. Last note: clean-up on a stock-based gratin beats a dairy-based gratin all to hell. Oops, one more: I wondering about the garlic issue. Seth says he like garlic, but found this harsh. Could this simply be the garlic itself? I've noticed new varieties in the market lately, so we maybe we're at a seasonal change for it?

Salad

I couldn't find Boston lettuce, so I substituted green leaf, and learned a good lesson about matching greens to dressing. The leaf lettuce is more assertive than Boston, and would have been better with Jacques vinegar dressing, I think.

Hacking

I'd go with a pair of sturdy scissors that can be disassembled for cleaning (like these). They won't cut through turkey bones, but neither will poultry shears. They're just fine for chicken, and they're only $20. Wusthoff also makes a pair in their GP line that are $30, I think. The poultry shears are considerably more expensive, they'e a pain to clean, and they're always springing open at inappropriate times. OTOH, a Chinese cleaver is cheap, too, but I don't have Fresco's facility with it. For boning breasts, I use a cheap flexible boner or a utility knife, whichever is closer to hand.

[guajolote]

I'd go with a pair of sturdy scissors that can be disassembled for cleaning (like these). They won't cut through turkey bones, but neither will poultry shears. They're just fine for chicken, and they're only $20.

As I suspected, you are Alton Brown. I saw this on his show last week.

My butcher uses a boning knife to cut up chicken. He can cut up a whole chicken in about 20 seconds, but he's been practicing for about 40 years.

[Dave the Cook]

A few years ago I found what I think is the best technique for Braised Chicken. I got the idea from The Bay Wolf Cookbook, and have since adapted any and all braised chicken recipes to this method:

1) Saute the aromatics/ vegetables in an oven-proof pan until they are somewhat softened (that way the chicken doesn't get overcooked by the time the vegetables are done.)

2) Deglaze the pan w/ wine or Marsala. (that way some of the alcohol cooks off.)

3) Add the stock, bring to a boil.

4) Place the chicken parts-don't skin them-on top of the aromatics. I just buy thighs if it is the two of us, or thighs/legs. This is key-the liquid needs to come part way up the pan, but NOT cover the chicken. (Notice I am not browning the chicken.)

5) Place the pan in the oven, bake for 45 minutes at 350 convect. The chicken will be tender and best of all, the skin will be crispy because the top has roasted the whole time. (I never liked how the skin gets flabby when it cooks covered.)

6) Take the chicken out, keep it warm, and if required, degrease and/or reduce the sauce. Depending on the recipe, sometimes I add a little cream or creme fraiche.

You can adapt any of the thousands of braised chicken recipes to this, and you will always end up with tender chicken with a crispy skin and a flavorful sauce.

This looks great. I love the way the skin is handled. I'm sure that the reason Jacques removes the skin is the yucky texture of braised chicken skin.

As for why do it this way, when we could just roast it? like having a number of ways to cook something. This is a great next-day dish -- we finished it off for Sunday lunch, and if anything, it was better than Saturday night. This can come in very handy. I could cook it Sunday and hold it until Tuesday, for instance, without worrying that it will deteriorate. I could do the same with roast chicken, or fried, I suppose. But reheated (or cold) roast or fried chicken, while very good, are not the same thing as their hot counterparts.

[Dave the Cook]

As I suspected, you are Alton Brown. I saw this on his show last week.

Is that the one with the dinosaur skeleton? That's probably where I got the scissors idea -- one of those slap-your-forehead moments.

As I recall, you and I were both spatchcocking with scissors at Varmint's.

[guajolote]

As I suspected, you are Alton Brown. I saw this on his show last week.

Is that the one with the dinosaur skeleton? That's probably where I got the scissors idea -- one of those slap-your-forehead moments.

As I recall, you and I were both spatchcocking with scissors at Varmint's.

yes, we were both using regular kitchen scissors, i don't have the skill or experience to do it w/ a boning knife.

i'd bet a pair of shears from the the hardware store would be cheaper than poultry shears.

[Dave the Cook]

Scissors rule for spatchcocking. I don't see any point in using a knife, and a cleaver is too unwieldy for me.

Absolutely, go to the hardware store. But I like the Wusthof kitchen (not poultry) scissors, 'cause you can take 'em apart and put 'em in the dishwasher. Disassembly also makes them easier to sharpen.

[Malawry]

This is my recipe for pommes boulanger, from L'academie. How does it compare to what you guys did? This technique made for some very tasty, crusty potaotes but then I suspect it uses a lot more butter than ya'll did. Butter is goooood.

Boulanger Potatoes

Potatoes

Onions

Melted butter

Sea salt and white pepper

White stock

Slice potatoes and onions very thinly; toss with butter. Season. Put in pie plate. Slice more potatoes thinly and arrange decoratively over the top. Brush each layer of potato on top with butter. Ladle on enough stock to cover halfway. Bake until tender and browned, rebrushing with butter every 10 minutes or so.

[edemuth]

Sorry, all... due to a 70-hour workweek last week, I did not get to preparing our menu. However, I'm planning on making it this weekend, unless we have another menu scheduled, in which case I'll jump ahead to that. I look forward to reading your posts on the chicken/potatoes menu in detail!

[hjshorter]

This is great, everyone!

I agree Dave, these potatoes might be good with an already rich meal. I left the garlic cloves whole in mine. It added garlic flavor without overwhelming.

As far as why cook the chicken this way... I like roast chicken too but it is better the day of. Like Dave said, this would keep for a couple of days with no loss of flavor.

I took the chicken out at the end of cooking and boiled the sauce for a couple of minutes and mounted with butter. It helped A LOT with the raw wine aspect. And the boned breasts were perfectly done after the suggested cooking time, so maybe I did it right after all. Although like you guys I am partial to bone-in usually. Next time I will skip cooking the wings and save them for stock.

We wished for a loaf of bread too. I won't forget that next time.

I used an unoaked Chablis (Domaine d'Elise 2001) in the dish, and we drank the same wine with dinner.

[Dave the Cook]

This is my recipe for pommes boulanger, from L'academie. How does it compare to what you guys did? This technique made for some very tasty, crusty potaotes but then I suspect it uses a lot more butter than ya'll did. Butter is goooood.

Boulanger Potatoes

Potatoes

Onions

Melted butter

Sea salt and white pepper

White stock

Slice potatoes and onions very thinly; toss with butter. Season. Put in pie plate. Slice more potatoes thinly and arrange decoratively over the top. Brush each layer of potato on top with butter. Ladle on enough stock to cover halfway. Bake until tender and browned, rebrushing with butter every 10 minutes or so.

No butter in our recipe. I like yours better. How long is the baking?

The taters got a two to three-minute simmer in the stock before being put in the baking dish without decorative arrangement (they could have used some, but the simmer cuts down on the baking time). BTW, did anyone notice the stock thickening? I was dubious.

Malawry reminded me of the onions, which were copious in Jacques' dish. I liked them, but now I wonder if maybe they contributed to the liquid problems? What kind of onions did y'all use?

[slkinsey]

Scissors rule for spatchcocking. I don't see any point in using a knife, and a cleaver is too unwieldy for me.

Depends a little on the kind of spatchcocking you want to do. I always cut out the backbone wich poultry shears. But if I want to go the extra step of removing the breastbone, this requires a knife. I almost always do remove the breastbone because (a) I can save the raw backbone and breastbone in the freezer for stock at a later date, or (b) I can or boil them right then and there to augment a pan sauce. The only time I always leave in the breast bone is for grilling, where the ribcage provides extra structure to prevent the chicken from falling apart as it is turned.

Another thing for all the spatchcockers out there... try splitting the chicken at the breastbone instead of the backbone. I am still experimenting with this, but it may have some advantages in terms of getting more heat to the legs as opposed to the breasts. Splitting at the breastbone is a knife task, I think...

[MatthewB]

I used yellow onions--non-Vidalia.

And we had bread. A large loaf from a local Bosnian bakery at the right price: $1.10 out the door & still warm.

Oh, BTW. Returned the J & J. Got a refund & then found a remainder copy for $16.

Edited October 27, 2003 by MatthewB (log)

[Dave the Cook]

I used yellow onions--non-Vidalia.

And we had bread.  A large loaf from a local Bosian bakery at the right price:  $1.10 out the door & still warm. 

Oh, BTW.  Returned the J & J.  Got a refund & then found a remainder copy for $16. 

Hmmm. Same here.

Vidalias have a lot of water, in my experience. (I also think they're a waste of money if you're doing anything that cooks for a while, but that's another thread.)

Bread and book: good job.

[hjshorter]

I used plain old yellow onions too.

Matthew - score!

Ok, so what's next? Beef?

[MatthewB]

Ok, so what's next?  Beef?

I looked at the beef recipes & I'm pretty comfortable with all of those.

But I'm always open to beef.

Is there a recipe that grabs you?

(I was hoping to find a beef wellington recipe.)

[hjshorter]

I'd like to try the Beef Bourgonionne, or maybe one of the veal recipes. I've never cooked veal at home.

Scott made the pate a few years ago, but I will like to try it this time.

Anyone have any suggestions?

[MatthewB]

I'd like to try the Beef Bourgonionne, or maybe one of the veal recipes.  I've never cooked veal at home.

Scott made the pate a few years ago, but I will like to try it this time.

Anyone have any suggestions?

*tag*

You're it, Heather.

Pick!

[hjshorter]

But I picked the last menu and look how it turned out.

[MatthewB]

But I picked the last menu and look how it turned out.

It turned out fine.

What do others think of the Beef Bourgonionne?

Edited October 27, 2003 by MatthewB (log)

[SethG]

You guys move so fast! I quickly typed something, dashed off to court, and came back for lunch to find you discussing the next meal!

I just wanted to say about our last meal that you're absolutely right, Dave, about the fricassee having a better shelf-life than a roast. I had some of my chicken the next day and I thought it was even better than it was when it came off the burner.

As for the next meal, I've been wanting to make a pate. I never have. And beef is good for me too, and whenever you want is cool with me. Maybe we should let Julia have our attention this time?

Edited October 27, 2003 by SethG (log)

[edemuth]

Beef bourguignon sounds great, Matthew... what should we have with it? (I'm not near my copy of J&J right now, otherwise I would suggest a complete menu; maybe I should start bringing it with me to work every day!

Great posts all round!

Malawry's potato recipe calls for adding liquid until halfway up the potatoes, while Jacques' calls for covering the potatoes IIRC. I'll try reducing the amount of stock added when I make it and see what happens to the texture as compared to your experiences.

Are we cooking again this weekend or next? I'll be in NYC the weekends of Nov. 8-9 and 15-16 helping Steve Klc and chefette at their demos and I'd love to get to do a menu before then, but I bow to the majority.

[hjshorter]

I just wanted to say about our last meal that you're absolutely right, Dave, about the fricassee having a better shelf-life than a roast.  I had some of my chicken the next day and I thought it had gotten even better than it was when it came off the burner. 

As for the next meal, I've been wanting to make a pate.  I never have.  And beef is good for me too, and whenever you want is cool with me.  Maybe we should let Julia have our attention this time?

I had the leftovers for lunch today. Delish.

Ok, beef. If the stew doesn't do it for you, how about Steak au poivre? Steak Diane? I need to work on sauteeing more than stewing.

And I'd like to try some of the vegetable preparations too, like the glazed carrots and turnips, or maybe the tomatoes. We could try the other potato recipe just to compare one with the other.

I am going hunting for A New Way To Cook tonight, so maybe we can add some of those recipes next week.

Seth, the pate makes 20 portions. Scott made it for a party a few years ago so I didn't pay attention to how much the recipe made. Unless we're having company it would need to freeze well.

[Dave the Cook]

I'll invoke the holday excuse on the pate. I want to make it, but the end of the year will be better for me -- I'll have a lot more help in consuming it.

I'm happy with any of the beef dishes; it's a matter of which techniques we want to cover. I'm more comfortable with stewing and braising than sauteeing, though as I recall, the beef in the bourguignon gets a browning -- always a challenge to get it nice and brown without burning the fond.

This doesn't bring us a bit closer to a decision, except to say that I'm with Heather -- I'd like to get some challenging veggie dishes into my portfolio. This sort of argues for the bourguignon, since it leaves time for something fancy while it's simmering.