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Ong Choy Redux


Hest88

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I just got back from Vancouver, and had an experience that reminded me of Titus Wong's query about cooking ong choy--back on the favorite chinese veggies thread. Titus said his ong choy was always tougher than what he remembered, and a bunch of us shared our cooking tips. Well...

As many of you know, Vancouver is considered one of the best places for Chinese food in North America and you can easily find Chinese food stuffs there that are still unusual in the U.S.

So, we were at an upscale Hong Kong style seafood restaurant and ordered ong choy. When it came, the stems were yellower than I was used to, plus they were flatter. My mom perked up and told me that it was "water" ong, not the usual ong choy I've always eaten. I pressed my mom and my dad for more info. They said that the "water" ong is actually grown in water, unlike the ong choy I get in the Bay Area, which is of a species grown in soil. I was very puzzled, since I always thought that all ong choy was grown in water, but they insisted that that was the case. The "water" ong choy is thus more crisp instead of crunchy (does that make any sense?), and indeed was the case. It was a subtle difference, but the choy was definitely less fibrous and more delicate and giving.

So, Titus, now I'm wondering if what you were talking about had nothing to do with cooking techniques at all but everything to do with the kind of ong choy you were comparing your efforts to?

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Hest88,

"Kangkung (Ipomea) is grown throughout South-East Asia (including Malaysia, Myanmar, Indonesia and South China), in Australia and certain parts of Africa.

Kangkung has several common names - swamp cabbage, water convolvulus and water spinach. There are two common types of kangkung - one that grows on land (kangkung darat), and one that grows in water in padi fields and ponds (kangkung air). Kangkung darat becomes unhealthy when grown in water, and kangkung air will rot if grown on land.

There is a marked difference in the colour of the flowers and in the shape and colour of the leaves. Kangkung darat has long leaves with narrow, pointed ends. The leaf is a mixture of white and green, and the flower is white. Kangkung air has long, murky-green coloured leaves with blunt ends, and white and yellow or pinkish-red flowers.

Kangkung darat reproduces using the seed or the stem, whereas kangkung air reproduces only by the stem."

From the "Wetlands Library".

The Scientific/Latin/Botanical Name of this plant should be used for reference because this will refer to the exact same plant no matter where you are in the world. The name is Ipomoea aquatica.

You may be interested in browsing the following for additional information:

Water SpinachÑChinatown's Tasty Morning Glory

Growing and Eating Ipomoea aquatica: Several threads of discussion

:smile:

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Yes, and kangkong/kangkung has the toughest hollow stems known to man!

I remember going to slightly shonky chines restaurants as a kid and having my dad yell at the chef for giving us a dish of elderly kangkong - so tough that the whole tangled mass lifted off the plate with a single tentative pull of the chopsticks.

Mind you, my brother had an unfortunate experience with this vegetable once in Thailand..... We were dining in a darker corner of an open-air or garden restaurant, and he grabbed a chopstickbiteful of kangkong, only to find that tangled up in the leaves and stems were tiny green birdseye chillies.

Which are frankly incendiary.

The rest of us made sure to throughly shake each bite of kangkong before inserting in mouth. :laugh:

" ..Is simplicity the best

Or simply the easiest

The narrowest path

Is always the holiest.. "

--Depeche Mode - Judas

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Thanks Mudbug! I never paid much attention to the specifics of vegetables. Until I was well into adulthood I never realized that the horrible, bitter vegetables my parents grew in the back yard and loved to eat blanched was the same thing as the chives I used as herbs!

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Sorry, sorry, sorry! I just returned from a weeklong trip to the Canadian Rockies with my family, wending our way amongst the glacier-capped peaks in an entourage of three minivans. I did spy this thread while on vacation, but the unrelenting task of cajoling six hyperactive children forebore an earlier reply. I had a great time and got to share cooking tips with my mom and sisters-in-law.

My ong choy cooking techniques have improved vastly now that I chop off the bottom third of the plant, but I think my efforts are still too over-seasoned for my tastes. I have been using the Filipino shrimp paste I purchased (in an effort to get rid of it), garlic, fish sauce, soy sauce, sherry, and a dash of sugar. In addition, I've blanched the vegetable prior to stir-frying it.

This, I have become convinced, is overkill.

Ong choy has a delicate flavor (tastes like tea to my unsophisticated palate) that is easily overwhelmed. I have resolved to return to the basic technique of sauteeing with a bit of garlic and a splash of sherry. In the future I might succumb to mashing up a cube of spicy fermented tofu just to investigate the results. Similarly, I'll want to check out the shrimp paste on it's own (Ong choy+shrimp paste+garlic+sherry) and later, with the Tra Chang (sp?) brand of Thai shrimp paste that Trillium recommended.

BTW, glad to see that Hest888 was in Canada relatively soon before I got there. For the most part, my family confined our eating adventures to family restaurants. On the last full day of the trip, we visited the West Edmonton mall, supposedly the largest in the world (a claim I'm not sure I would be proud to voice myself). Despite that, the developers have modeled one wing of the mall into a Chinatown of sorts with a few Asian merchants and a massive, Costco-sized Asian grocery called T&T Supermarket.

Visiting T&T Supermarket was an eye-opener for me if only for the sheer size of the place. I have visited a similar megamarket in the Chicagoland suburbs named Diho, but this place is simply on a larger scale of magnitude. It encompasses a sushi bar, a dim sum counter, a counter featuring Vietnamese sandwiches and baked goods, a Chinese bakery, a well-stocked seafood counter with numerous live specimens, and all the other typical accoutrements of a supermarket. I was duly impressed. So were my family who purchased packages of sushi, dim sum, styrofoam cups of congee and soy milk, Asian drinks and juices, and chowed down to their hearts content. My folks were particularly enamored of the boneless (*boneless* mark ye!) spicy chicken feet, the boneless spicy duck feet, spicy sliced pig ears, and spicy marinated conch.

I felt my eyes going around and around as I took it all in. It was enough to tempt me to immigate to Canada.

Edited by titus wong (log)
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Titus,

"It's important to know how to "pinch" the leaves. We don't use knife to cut this vegetable, we use fingers "pinch" from the top to the root. Pinch top leaves with 1 1/2 to 2 inches stem (down to next leaf), pinch one leaf with the same length of stem, then another... repeat this process until it's hard to pinch the stem. Then you know you should stop, because if it's hard to pinch, it's not tender enough to eat."

I highly recommend simply sauteeing with Chinese 'chili preserved bean curd'. We prefer the M.T.T. brand. Stick with the Sichun/Sze Chuan types. It's the only seasoning you need with the ong choy, sets off the natural flavors of the ong choy....

You'll find it's one of the most common and treasured methods of preparing ong choy if you click on the link for "Growing and Eating Ipomoea aquatica" posted above.

:smile:

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Titus,

"It's important to know how to "pinch" the leaves. We don't use knife to cut this vegetable, we use fingers "pinch" from the top to the root. Pinch top leaves with 1 1/2 to 2 inches stem (down to next leaf), pinch one leaf with the same length of stem, then another... repeat this process until it's hard to pinch the stem. Then you know you should stop, because if it's hard to pinch, it's not tender enough to eat."

I highly recommend simply sauteeing with Chinese 'chili preserved bean curd'. We prefer the M.T.T. brand. Stick with the Sichun/Sze Chuan types. It's the only seasoning you need with the ong choy, sets off the natural flavors of the ong choy....

Thanks for the hard info, mudbug! I did try wading through those threads earlier, but I didn't get to ChicoGirl's informative post until today.

I didn't see the M.T.T. brand you specified in the website/link you posted (am I mistaken). I think I recognize the brand anyway as my granny used it. It has a green label, right? So all you do is oil+spicy bean curd+ong choy? Any salt, garlic?

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Titus, good to see you back. Vancouver is an incredible place for Chinese food. I hate the "malling" effect--which we have here in the South Bay as well--but oh I love having access to all that authentic Chinese food and goods.

I really only use the fermented tofu now as well. And, truth be told, I haven't used cooking spirits in years. I've just gotten too lazy and it doesn't make a big enough difference for my tastes to bother. I will use garlic, but what I've found makes a huge difference to me is to chop up a jalapeno and throw it in.

So, my lazy method is to heat up oil, throw in garlic, jalapeno, two cubes of the spicy, fermented tofu, and then throw in the blanched ong choy. Really the most time consuming part is "pinching" it. If I'm stir-frying just enough ong choy for myself as a snack, I'll even skip the blanching.

Edited by Hest88 (log)
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Kangkung has several common names - swamp cabbage, water convolvulus and water spinach.

. . .

The Scientific/Latin/Botanical Name of this plant should be used for reference because this will refer to the exact same plant no matter where you are in the world. The name is Ipomoea aquatica.

Thanks for the great info, Mudbug. However, one part confused me a little. Ipomoea and Convolvulus are two separate genus names for different types of morning glory (Convolvulaceae). I believe that Ipomoea spp. usually are the climbing kind (such as the sweet potato, Ipomoea Batatas) and Convolvulus spp. usually the prostate kind, but I'm not certain. Since Kangkung / Ong Choi is not really a climber, "water convolvulus" makes sense. But then why is the botanical name Ipomoea aquatica?

Regarding how to cook old ong choi. I usually try the asparagus technique - stems on the bottom and leaves on the top sticking out of the water. You need a lot of ong choi bound together loosely, otherwise it tips over. The stems usually end up tough anyway, so I cut them off and let the kids use them for straws. By then I'm too frustrated to add anything but plain yellow bean sauce or oyster sauce and sesame oil.

Sun-Ki Chai
http://www2.hawaii.edu/~sunki/

Former Hawaii Forum Host

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Titus,

My pleasure. The M.T.T. brand is a red label, gold trim, black type - have some in the fridge right now... If you browse the Asian groceries, you'll likely find it. You are correct in that it is not at that web page. If anyone else has specific brand recommendations, please post. I specified because we got a brand which had a terrible taste and was a great disappointment and it looked like the Hwang Ryh Shiang jars (check the bean curd link). Bleh! If you can find the same brand your granny used, then by all means, go with what you know and like.

All we do is add a tiny bit of oil to a hot (not smoking) wok or pan. At this point you can add garlic and stir fry half a minute. Add fresh water spinach and stir fry one minute our until leaves go limp. Add one cube preserved bean curd per half pound water spinach. (You can add a tiny pinch of salt and sugar at this point.) Break up the cube as you stir fry and mix it up into the spinach for about three to four minutes. Ummmmm... making myself hungry!

Hest88,

"...never paid much attention to the specifics of vegetables. Until I was well into adulthood...

Isn't it fascinating? I became intrigued by it from discussion at the Asian Vegetable Forum and started growing it this season. So looking forward to trying something new, once I had a bit to harvest, we cooked it I describe above and my first exclaimation was, "I've had this before!" And then I went on to agree with everyone else that it really is good.

I'll have to try the jalapeno idea. Although we like flavor of serranos even better so I look forward to trying each.

skchai,

LOL, sounds to me like you should have your kids pinch off the tender parts.

There are many more common (English) names for Ipomoea aquatica syn Ipomoea reptans. The key word being common and not necessarily scientifically accurate and it would be very difficult to compile a complete listing from all countries and dialects. Swamp morning glory, Swamp Cabbage, Tropical spinach, (Chinese) Water Spinach, aquatic morning glory, bamboo leaf, Ung Choi, Ong Choy, Kang Kong, Kang Kung, Kankon, Weng Cai, Ngung Choi, Ung Tsoi, Kong Xin Cai, Tong Sin Tsai, Toongsintsai, Hung sam choi, Ong tung tso, Ungtsai, Tung Choy, Rau Muong, etc.

Now keep in mind I am not a botanist! But I hope this helps for clarification purposes...

Ipomoea and Convolvulus are each a different Genus within the same Family of 'Convolvulaceae' (the Morning-glory family).

Kingdom: Plantae Ð Plants

ÊÊÊÊÊÊ Subkingdom :Tracheobionta Ð Vascular plants

ÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊ Superdivision: Spermatophyta Ð Seed plants

ÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊ Division: Magnoliophyta Ð Flowering plants

ÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊ Class: Magnoliopsida Ð Dicotyledons

ÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊ Subclass: Asteridae Ð

ÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊ Order: Solanales Ð

ÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊ Family: Convolvulaceae Ð Morning-glory family

ÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊ Genus: Ipomoea L. Ð morning-glory

ÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊ Species: Ipomoea aquatica Forsk. Ð swamp morning-glory

GenusÊÊConvolvulus L. -- bindweed

GenusÊÊIpomoea L. -- morning-glory

Ipomoea batatas (L.) Lam. -- sweet potato batatas is the species

From the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA)

:rolleyes:

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skchai,

LOL, sounds to me like you should have your kids pinch off the tender parts.

There are many more common (English) names for Ipomoea aquatica syn Ipomoea reptans. The key word being common and not necessarily scientifically accurate and it would be very difficult to compile a complete listing from all countries and dialects. Swamp morning glory, Swamp Cabbage, Tropical spinach,  (Chinese) Water Spinach, aquatic morning glory, bamboo leaf, Ung Choi, Ong Choy, Kang Kong, Kang Kung, Kankon, Weng Cai, Ngung Choi, Ung Tsoi, Kong Xin Cai, Tong Sin Tsai, Toongsintsai, Hung sam choi, Ong tung tso, Ungtsai, Tung Choy, Rau Muong, etc.

Now keep in mind I am not a botanist! But I hope this helps for clarification purposes...

Ipomoea and Convolvulus are each a different Genus within the same Family of 'Convolvulaceae' (the Morning-glory family).

Kingdom: Plantae Ð Plants

ÊÊÊÊÊÊ Subkingdom :Tracheobionta Ð Vascular plants

ÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊ Superdivision: Spermatophyta Ð Seed plants

ÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊ Division: Magnoliophyta Ð Flowering plants

ÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊ Class: Magnoliopsida Ð Dicotyledons

ÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊ Subclass: Asteridae Ð

ÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊ Order: Solanales Ð

ÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊ Family: Convolvulaceae Ð Morning-glory family

ÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊ Genus: Ipomoea L. Ð morning-glory

ÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊ Species: Ipomoea aquatica Forsk. Ð swamp morning-glory

GenusÊÊConvolvulus L. -- bindweed

GenusÊÊIpomoea L. -- morning-glory

Ipomoea batatas (L.) Lam. -- sweet potato    batatas is the species

From the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA)

:rolleyes:

Thanks a lot! That's a lot of "ÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊ"s!

Regarding the kids, seriously, it might just work. They would probably be pretty motivated to pinch the leaves off so that they can get to the "good" part - i.e. the "toy" stem.

The reason for my strange interest in the Ipomoea / Convolvulus distinction is that I once had a traumatic experience with planting ornamental Ground Morning Glory (Convoluvus Maruticum). The rabbits (we lived in Tucson then) kept eating it down to the nub. I thought that convolvulus was supposed to be the inedible genus in the family! Seriously, I considered eating it myself since it seemed much more easily chewable than ong choi.

Sun-Ki Chai
http://www2.hawaii.edu/~sunki/

Former Hawaii Forum Host

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skchai,

My pleasure. I have an avid interest in Asian vegetables and sleuthing from common names to the scientific names so the rest of us can enjoy them too. It's fascinating to find out how different countries prepare the same plant.

Good. Get your kids involved in the food prep. They'll be occupied for a few minutes, appreciate the food more, and carry on their knowledge into adulthood. It's terrible to think of "grandma's cooking" as lost forever because the children never learned for whatever reasons.

"Maruticum"? Are you sure? Here is a link to the Convolvulus Species. I don't see the Maruticum or anything similar in that or a google search.

:huh:

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  • 2 weeks later...
"Maruticum"? Are you sure? Here is a link to the Convolvulus Species. I don't see the Maruticum or anything similar in that or a google search.

:huh:

Mudbug, sorry to take so long to respond. I've been out of town and just got back - wasn't checking my email.

You're right, I messed up the species name - it's Convolvulus Mauritanicus, not "Maruticum". Aka Convolvulus Sabatius ssp. Mauritanicus

Not sure how I came up with that - probably scribbled it off the tag. Anyway, I guess it must originate in Mauritania?

Sun-Ki Chai
http://www2.hawaii.edu/~sunki/

Former Hawaii Forum Host

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Hi skchai,

Convolvulus Mauritanicus appears to have originated in Northwestern Africa. As for edibility... I don't know. It's funny though. I was just talking with a gardener acquaintance about heirloom tomatoes. (Heirloom vegetables are those whose lineage can be traced back 50 years or more and have not been genetically modified or hybridized for mass production purposes which means flavor has not been sacrificed.) And she was saying how she'd planted a couple of heirloom tomato plants but her husband wouldn't have anything to do with eating them because he was afraid of them. And here you are thinking... if the rabbits can eat it, maybe I can too...!

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One secret of keeping Pak-boong (in Thai) or On Choy (in Cantonese) from turning chewy is super hot wok.

You must let your wok heat until super hot, then throw in the veggie with seasonings, the a couple of turns and immdediately off the heat.

I never cook On Choy stir fry at home because I don't think I could ever get the wok to be hot enough in my kitchen. And chewy on choy is yucky in my opinion.

chez pim

not an arbiter of taste

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  • 6 months later...
I never cook On Choy stir fry at home because I don't think I could ever get the wok to be hot enough in my kitchen. And chewy on choy is yucky in my opinion.

Pim,

I think different people eat different parts of the plant and cook them in different ways according to how they were exposed to them during childhood, etc.

I'm just thankful when I can find it fresh at all! Love it with spicy bean curd which seems to be the most commonly preferred method of preparation above.

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Titus,

My pleasure. The M.T.T. brand is a red label, gold trim, black type - have some in the fridge right now... If you browse the Asian groceries, you'll likely find it. You are correct in that it is not at that web page. If anyone else has specific brand recommendations, please post. I specified because we got a brand which had a terrible taste and was a great disappointment and it looked like the Hwang Ryh Shiang jars (check the bean curd link). Bleh! If you can find the same brand your granny used, then by all means, go with what you know and like.

Hi everyone. I've learned a lot form this forum, so thanks to all of you. I was just about to post a general question about fermented bean curd but saw the subject come up in this thread so I thought I'd post it here. Since I'm new to the ingredient I'd appreciate some help in understanding it. The first jar I bought was so overhwheming that I eventually determined that it must have spoiled. The liquid was quite "fizzy" and the cubes of bean curd had a clear slime sticking to them and were very mushy, with about as much structure as room temperature butter. Is this normal? I decided I needed some other samples for comparison so I purhcased two diffferent brands from two different stores. These seemed more normal to my untrained eye and palate. Intense yes, but edible. The tofu, though soft, was firm enough to be picked up with chopsticks. No slime, little fizz. What do you think? Do you think the first sample was spoiled or are those common characteristics? What should I look for an ideal sample of fermented bean curd? Or does one jar vary greatly from the next?

-michael

"Tis no man. Tis a remorseless eating machine."

-Captain McAllister of The Frying Dutchmen, on Homer Simpson

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Michael,

Others may have more experience with different brands but the M.T.T. brand we prefer is consistent with everything you said above without the fizz.

I don't think they should be necessarily slimy, but different brands may be in a slightly thicker liquid which my be interpreted as such. The cubes should be solid enough to pick up with chopsticks while at the same time easily mushable with a fork.

Trust your nose. The smell should be intense but if it's repulsive, I don't think I'd try it.

Exactly which brands did you try? Would it be possible for you to post photos?

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Yes, fizziness is not desirable. I don't know about the MTT brand, but the jars of the ones I get often do not look very airtight, so I imagine it would be very possible to get a jar that was contaminated. It should last a hugely long time, though, so if you determine that the jar is okay you shouldn't have problems storing it in the frig for your next use.

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Yes, fizziness is not desirable. I don't know about the MTT brand, but the jars of the ones I get often do not look very airtight, so I imagine it would be very possible to get a jar that was contaminated.

Thanks for the info. I'm now pretty sure it was contaminated.

Mudbug, thanks as well. I think I've learned what to expect now. I threw out the first jar so unfortunately I don't have any pictures to share. Just picture chili-flecked sludge with clear slime sauce. Will track down MTT brand to do a final comparison.

"Tis no man. Tis a remorseless eating machine."

-Captain McAllister of The Frying Dutchmen, on Homer Simpson

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  • 4 months later...

Ong Choy leaves take much less time to cook than stems. When you cook them (leaves and stems) together, usually the leaves get overcooked and become too soft.

Here is a trick I often use: separate the leaves of Ong Choy from stems. For the stems, blanch them, but not leaves.

To cook Ong Choy, I only do one of the 2 styles:

1. Oil, garlic, 2 - 3 tsp of Chinese shrimp paste, 1/2 jalapeno (sliced)

2. Oil, garlic, 2 - 3 cubes of fermented tofu (Foo Yu), 1/2 jalapeno (sliced)

When the oil is hot, throw in the garlic, shrimp paste (or Foo Yu), jalapeno, stir for a few seconds, then put in the blanched stems and fresh leaves. The leaves will cook very quickly.

No extra salt needed because both shrimp paste and Foo Yu are very salty by themselves. The jalapeno (or chili peppers) really makes a big difference in cooking Ong Choy. It's just not the same without them.

Edited by hzrt8w (log)
W.K. Leung ("Ah Leung") aka "hzrt8w"
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Good info, hrtz8w. I finish off the the dish with a liile cornstarch thickening. This serves two purposes; to prevent, or at least delay the leaching of a lot of liquid from the veggies, and it gives a smoother mouth feel to the dish.

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  • 1 year later...

I spent the past few days in Toronto suffering through a heat wave from hell. NO COOKING anywhere by anybody of my family, so we spent a few evenings lingering over excellent Chinese meals in air-conditioned comfort.

Both my kids love fu yu like a cat loves catnip, so for three suppers we had pea shoots, ong choy and even amaranth cooked with garlic and fu yu. Even my kids' caucasian SOs grew to love the stuff.

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The best tasting "Ong Choy" that I enjoyed for many years was grown in Shatin in the then "New Territories" are of Hong Kong in semi-stagnant water in artificial ponds. It tasted much better, was consistent by being grown year round in the ponds.

It was always throughly washed with a special detergent used often with Vegetables called "Wonderful" that advertised being anti-bacterial.

It was then spun dry in large plastic tubs and sorted for size. The Larger Fibrous Leafs were reserved for staff meals after being blanched. The ones that passed the tenderness test were always cooked to order as per the customers request.

Generally after quickly sautéing in a hot wok with Peanut Oil the greens were put to the side of the Wok and some Diced Garlic and Ginger was placed into the oil for several seconds when some Clear Pork/Chicken Broth was added brought to a boil then the Ong Choy was returned stirred with some Cornstarch mixed with Cold Broth was added till it thickened slightly then served.

The most popular addition was some "Pearl River Oyster Sauce" the one with the older gentleman's smiling face on the Label and a little very hot oil.

The other often ordered variations were with Shrimp Paste, Fermented Spicy Bean Cake, and Fresh Chillies.

What we later learned is that the reason, "Ong Choy" in Hong Kong was the very best was due to the fact that it was always grown in Water utilizing "Night Soil" as fertilizer. This was applicable to almost all veggies grown in the then Colony where there were always woman who were hired by the government as collectors. I don't know if this is still the custom under Chinese Government since they occupied Hong Kong. Everyone made sure to Cook all Vegetables except the ones purchased vacuum sealed from importers even though there were those who trusted washing in "Wonderful".

Hope this wasn't more then you wanted to know.

Irwin

I don't say that I do. But don't let it get around that I don't.

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