Recipe Thieves!

[fresh_a]

Thief!

[Lord Michael Lewis]

Although not legally inhibited (and thus, for many, acceptable), there is a moral dimension to recipe theft or unacknowledged heavy borrowing that requires articles like these. Public humiliation is an effective mode of influence, I only wish we had these kind journalistic values here in Britain.

[Andrew Fenton]

That's why I always complained to the lunch ladies at my high school, "Stop serving that turkey Tetrazzini! You're just a pack of recipe thieves! (Plus, it's nasty.)"

[Adam Balic]

If chefs stopped making derivative recipes then there would be no restaurants, but in published work it is good to see people being credited for there recipes.

[Eric_Malson]

This article contains what I find to be a very curious statement:

Tableside guacamole. "Rosa Mexicano is the originator on making guac at the table in New York," says Douglas Rodriguez, who acknowledged the Aztecs did this centuries ago. "Everyone from L.A. to Minnesota to Washington, D.C., has copied the idea. It's an awesome one."

I may be totally out of it (entirely possible), but hasn't Rosa Mexicano been in NYC only a few years, originating in L.A.? Were they in a different location from the present one before? They certainly haven't been at the Lincoln Center one for more than about 5 years.

I had guacomole made tableside at a sleepy Mexican restaurant in Dallas almost that long ago....one of those places that looks like it hasn't changed since the early '70's. I find the idea that they are even aware of anything Rosa Mexicano does quite hard to swallow.

[Lord Michael Lewis]

If chefs stopped making derivative recipes then there would be no restaurants, but in published work it is good to see people being credited for there recipes.

This is unsurprising magnamimity for a scientist, but imagine if someone copied your ground-breaking work on fruit flies, and passed it off as their own. I doubt very much if you'd be feeling quite so generous.

Time and again we have discussed this topic, and I am ever surprised at the generosity of non-chef pundits towards those who usurp others' creative efforts. What about the creators? Do you think they like it? Downplaying the importance of creative pillage, may have some benefits for the diner, but in the long run it allies food with fashion, and not art, with trends spreading like lice throughout a creatively corrupt industry serving a morally bankrupt, and clearly undiscerning clientele. The net result is the comforting homogeneity in which everyone knows what's in and what's out, that we find on these boards.

[Adam Balic]

If chefs stopped making derivative recipes then there would be no restaurants, but in published work it is good to see people being credited for there recipes.

This is unsurprising magnamimity for a scientist, but imagine if someone copied your ground-breaking work on fruit flies, and passed it off as their own. I doubt very much if you'd be feeling quite so generous.

Time and again we have discussed this topic, and I am ever surprised at the generosity of non-chef pundits towards those who usurp others' creative efforts. What about the creators? Do you think they like it? Downplaying the importance of creative pillage, may have some benefits for the diner, but in the long run it allies food with fashion, and not art, with trends spreading like lice throughout a creatively corrupt industry serving a morally bankrupt, and clearly undiscerning clientele. The net result is the comforting homogeneity in which everyone knows what's in and what's out, that we find on these boards.

No, I should make it more clear. If somebody copied my 'fruitfly' work and published it, then I would be very pissed off. Once my work was published, if somebodies work was based on my results and they didn't refer to my original work then I would again be annoyed. But, if I was given credit then I have do problem with this. It is how progress is made in the field, I imagine it is the same in Chef-world.

If credit is given, then all the world can know about you briliance. For those few original thinkers, this is the main way that their ideas reach the world, though others.

Edited August 1, 2003 by Adam Balic (log)

[Lord Michael Lewis]

But, if I was given credit then I have do problem with this. It is how progress is made in the field, I imagine it is the same in Chef-world.

Then you imagine wrongly. The chef world works more along the lines of -- fuck you. It's not illegal.

If credit is given, then all the world can know about you briliance. For those few original thinkers, this is the main way that their ideas reach the world, though others.

I quite agree, but this convention doesn't exist in catering, and its lack has provided ingress for many a reputation builder.

[Adam Balic]

But, if I was given credit then I have do problem with this. It is how progress is made in the field, I imagine it is the same in Chef-world.

Then you imagine wrongly. The chef world works more along the lines of -- fuck you. It's not illegal.

If credit is given, then all the world can know about you briliance. For those few original thinkers, this is the main way that their ideas reach the world, though others.

I quite agree, but this convention doesn't exist in catering, and its lack has provided ingress for many a reputation builder.

I guess my view is a little naive.

[Wolfert]

I'm wondering how a chef would feel if he went to a restaurant, saw on the menu a dish credited to him...and then orders it only to discover it is an awful rendition.

[Bux]

Troisgros' salmon with sorrel sauce was a nouvelle cuisine classic and served all over France. Daguin was the first to serve magret (grilled rare duck breast) but it soon became a southwest standard and then an international dish. The spread of recipes isn't "news." Anyway, you can't copyright recipes. All you can do is make it better than everyone else and have the world know that imitation is always second best.

[JOE DZIEMIANOWICZ in the Daily News] Which is precisely why megachef Boulud, in the end, wasn't that concerned by the brazen burger burglar. "I don't care," he says. "No one makes it better than me."

You can also improvise on the original and you can credit your source and inspiration. I think that changes everything and this surprised me a bit in the article.

[JOE DZIEMIANOWICZ in the Daily News] • Potato-wrapped sea bass. Daniel Boulud was cooking at Le Cirque when he created this dish — tater-draped fish served with leeks and red wine sauce — in 1987. Soon around town, it was monkey sea bass, monkey do.

I don't know if Daniel's recipe for sea bass in potato crust is still on his web site. It's a dish he created while working at le Cirque and one his clients demanded later when he opened his own restaurant. This is what he had to say about it on the site and in his cookbook.

Paul Bocuse's Rouget en Écailles de Pomme de Terre inspired this exquisite dish of tender fish fillets wrapped in a crisp crust of sliced potatoes.  But since those beautifully briny red mullets from the Mediterranean are rarely available in this country, I suggest sea bass, which makes a superb substitute.  For the sauce, I chose Barolo wine, one of the best wines of Piemonte (northwestern Italy), in honor of Sirio Maccioni, the owner of Le Cirque restaurant.  I was duly flattered when Chef Bocuse sent the chefs from his restaurant at Epcot Center in Florida to Le Cirque to learn my adaptation of his recipe.  You can assemble this dish up to 1 hour ahead of time and keep it refrigerated before cooking and serving it.

I think it sums up why he's upset when he's upset and sets an example of professionalism.

I appreciate Scott Conant's feelings, but I think he over reacted. Then again I'm dependent on the writer's spin and choice of quotes for that view. I'm glad however, that I don't know the name of the pasty cook who didn't have the honesty not only to praise Conant, but to both credit him and improvise to make the dish her own. There is a code of ethics even if it's poorly followed.

[Bux]

I'm wondering how a chef would feel if he went to a restaurant, saw on the menu a dish credited to him...and then orders it only to discover it is an awful rendition.

Yes, of course there's that. I suppose it's a mised blessing.

[Sandra Levine]

I may be totally out of it (entirely possible), but hasn't Rosa Mexicano been in NYC only a few years, originating in L.A.?  Were they in a different location from the present one before?

Rosa Mexicano was on Second Avenue, near 59th Street at least 20 years ago.

[Eric_Malson]

Ah, thanks....I didn't know!

And no wonder--that's on the east side.

[HungryChris]

If I have a dish that I really enjoy in a resturaunt, you bet that I'm going to try to make it myself. When I bought it I was paying for the ingredients, the idea and the execution. If I was then to start selling the same dish, I would be selling my ingredients, my execution and an idea that wasn't mine. Would that be wrong or dishonest? If the answer is yes that means that whoever came up with the idea should have exclusive use of it. If that were so there should only be one place to buy fried clams or pizza or ceazer salad in the world.

HC

[Lord Michael Lewis]

If I have a dish that I really enjoy in a resturaunt, you bet that I'm going to try to make it myself. When I bought it I was paying for the ingredients, the idea and the execution. If I was then to start selling the same dish, I would be selling my ingredients, my execution and an idea that wasn't mine. Would that be wrong or dishonest? If the answer is yes that means that whoever came up with the idea should have exclusive use of it. If that were so there should only be one place to buy fried clams or pizza or ceazer salad in the world.

HC

There is a world of difference between the generic dishes you cite, and the personalized 'haute cuisine' of Boloud et al. At the highest level, and never more so than at present, fortunes are made on chefs' ability to create and innovate. Unfortunately there are some high profile chefs, who, lacking this ability, rely on importing other chefs' creative endeavour into their own menus and claiming the credit for themselves. Your compelling what's-yours-is-mine rationale may make you feel this is acceptable, but it's hardly rooted the moral or ethical foundations of the society in which you live.

[tommy]

I may be totally out of it (entirely possible), but hasn't Rosa Mexicano been in NYC only a few years, originating in L.A.?  Were they in a different location from the present one before?

Rosa Mexicano was on Second Avenue, near 59th Street at least 20 years ago.

1st ave.

you should know that sandra!

Edited August 1, 2003 by tommy (log)

[HungryChris]

If I have a dish that I really enjoy in a resturaunt, you bet that I'm going to try to make it myself. When I bought it I was paying for the ingredients, the idea and the execution. If I was then to start selling the same dish, I would be selling my ingredients, my execution and an idea that wasn't mine. Would that be wrong or dishonest? If the answer is yes that means that whoever came up with the idea should have exclusive use of it. If that were so there should only be one place to buy fried clams or pizza or ceazer salad in the world.

HC

There is a world of difference between the generic dishes you cite, and the personalized 'haute cuisine' of Boloud et al. At the highest level, and never more so than at present, fortunes are made on chefs' ability to create and innovate. Unfortunately there are some high profile chefs, who, lacking this ability, rely on importing other chefs' creative endeavour into their own menus and claiming the credit for themselves. Your compelling what's-yours-is-mine rationale may make you feel this is acceptable, but it's hardly rooted the moral or ethical foundations of the society in which you live.

Give me a break! How do you think those dishes I cited became generic?

If you as a chef don't have faith in both the merit of your creations along with your ability to carry them out like nobody else, YOU have chosen the wrong field! If you weaken at the knees and cry fowl at the prospect of some other chef challenging you at that same dish, you deserve defeat.

Your fortunes as a chef should be made or broken in how well you can execute that creativity you signed on for as well as how you respond to the challenges that come with the job and shouldn't be guaranteed because you thought of it first. Let's face it, the 'haute cuisine' of Boloud et al of today could be the french fries of the future and I'm comfortable with that. If great chefs were made or broken based on their creativity of thinking alone, this would be a different world and a sadder place for it.

[schaem]

Give me a break! How do you think those dishes I cited became generic?

Exactly. How can Ceasar salad be called a "generic" dish. It has a name fer chrissake!

It comes down to the old artist vesus artisan view of chefs. I guess if a chef is an artist, then copying his unique creations would be akin to copying a painting or a novel. If the chef is an artisan (which seems more likely considering they crank out numerous copies of their "works" every night) then the arguement doesn't hold. Recipes and ideas are more akin to "tricks of the trade", students (cooks) are influenced by their masters (chefs) and masters are influenced by their peers. Daniel Boulud adapting a dish from Paul Bocuse is a perfect example of two [confident] peers riffing off of each other.

It is often said that the common trait of all great chefs is generosity. One can be gererous with ideas as well as with food.

[Lord Michael Lewis]

If great chefs were made or broken based on their creativity of thinking alone, this would be a different world and a sadder place for it.

Does this mean you are suggesting greatness resides in other areas - which areas?

Do think a chef that makes his reputation by purloining other chefs hard work, merits the epithet, 'great'? I think you confuse greatness with success.

By your tone, it seems that you're a chef. If you feel that there is no stigma attached to stealing recipes and passing them off as your own, why don't you post details of where you work, and to what extent you practice what you advocate?

[Katherine]

Your lordship, this is just plain silly.

Do you refuse to eat dishes that have a known provenance outside of the kitchen they are currently being prepared in, or do you merely pass judgement on those who make and eat them?

[Lord Michael Lewis]

Your lordship, this is just plain silly.

Do you refuse to eat dishes that have a known provenance outside of the kitchen they are currently being prepared in,

Absolutely, if it seems a chef is passing off someone else's work as his own.

or do you merely pass judgement on those who make and eat them?

Can you proffer a good reason why I should defend intellectual theft?

[schaem]

Do think a chef that makes his reputation by purloining other chefs hard work, merits the epithet, 'great'? I think you confuse greatness with success.

And i think you confuse writing recipes or menu ideas with the hardest work a chef does. Execution, training, managing, acquisition of products. These are the hardest things a chef does.

And since all of this "other" hard work is what contributes to a chef's "greatness" (not to mention a well-executed front-of-the-house operation in which to experience the chef's work. For a great chef is nothing without a great restaurant; something that is certainly the product of a great team, not an individual.) merely stealing a recipe is not as serious as the commonly accepted definiton of intellectual theft. Intellectual laziness maybe, but more harmful to the "thief" than to the "victim". If one wants to be the next Joel Robuchon, say, stealing his recipes (which are public record) will not help. Better to steal his obsession with perfection, or his rigorous technique. But one can't steal those traits, can they? I doubt Robuchon is afraid of some no-talent stealing his recipes and trying to pass them off as his own.

[Lord Michael Lewis]

merely stealing a recipe is not as serious as the commonly accepted definiton of intellectual theft.

Please develop this assertion.

If one wants to be the next Joel Robuchon, say, stealing his recipes (which are public record) will not help.  Better to steal his obsession with perfection, or his rigorous technique.  But one can't steal those traits, can they?

In order to aim for perfection one needs a general idea what perfection is. The creatively bereft rely on importing their standards from those whose standards have acquired something generally agreed to be approaching perfection. The key element in this equation is creativity, obsessives are two-a-penny.

[schaem]

The creatively bereft rely on importing their standards from those whose standards have acquired something generally agreed to be approaching perfection.

So, is the importation of standards of perfection by the creatively bereft also intellectual theft?

Edited August 3, 2003 by schaem (log)