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The Kitchen Sink


fifi
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Interesting that they state that the sinks are "Type 304 18/10 chromium/nickel stainless steel"... like that is something special. Type 304 stainless is just garden variety stainless. To even mention "chromium/nickel" is redundant. That is what makes stainless steel, um... stainless steel. Nice sink, though. I just hope nobody thinks they have to pay a premium price for "Type 304 18/10 chromium/nickel stainless steel". I would bet that just about every sink on the market is 304 stainless, that is defined by ASTM by the way.

Edited by fifi (log)

Linda LaRose aka "fifi"

"Having spent most of my life searching for truth in the excitement of science, I am now in search of the perfectly seared foie gras without any sweet glop." Linda LaRose

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Interesting that they state that the sinks are "Type 304 18/10 chromium/nickel stainless steel"... like that is something special.

That's called marketing!

For some reason, the point of an offset drain escaped me until this thread. I've seen them and wondered what the heck the point was. Duh, as they say.

Now that the scales have fallen from my eyes, I wonder if there are clearance problems with disposals, and how those are handled.

Dave Scantland
Executive director
dscantland@eGstaff.org
eG Ethics signatory

Eat more chicken skin.

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Interesting that they state that the sinks are "Type 304 18/10 chromium/nickel stainless steel"... like that is something special. Type 304 stainless is just garden variety stainless. To even mention "chromium/nickel" is redundant. That is what makes stainless steel, um... stainless steel. Nice sink, though. I just hope nobody thinks they have to pay a premium price for "Type 304 18/10 chromium/nickel stainless steel". I would bet that just about every sink on the market is 304 stainless, that is defined by ASTM by the way.

If I'm not mistaken the standard for 304 stainless is between 8-10.5% nickel. So the Elkay sinks are 18/8, for example and described as 304. The Franke's increased nickel content (at 18/10) accounts for the higher price, and I believe the luster of 18/10 is more aesthetically pleasing than 18/8.

Sometimes When You Are Right, You Can Still Be Wrong. ~De La Vega

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Now that the scales have fallen from my eyes, I wonder if there are clearance problems with disposals, and how those are handled.

By clearance problems, I am assuming that you mean the clearance required for mounting a disposal under a deep sink. I am wondering that also. I now have, in my hot little hand, the name of THE plumbing supplier in my area and I intend to go visit in the next couple of weeks to spec out my plumbing fixtures. I intend to ask that question. I will post the answer here but I am betting that someone has already been there, done that and we will know sooner.

I am like you with the "DUH" syndrome. I hadn't thought about the offset drain issue.

Linda LaRose aka "fifi"

"Having spent most of my life searching for truth in the excitement of science, I am now in search of the perfectly seared foie gras without any sweet glop." Linda LaRose

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I wonder if there are clearance problems with disposals, and how those are handled.

You'll need to choose a sink and disposal then check the specs to see if there's a problem. For instance, if you used the Franke sink above, and an Insinkerator Model 17 (Batch Feed) disposal, the locations of the drain centerline and disposal centerline should make it no problem. If you chose the Continuous feed model, which is wider, you may have a problem depending on the size of the cabinet in which the sink is installed.

Sometimes When You Are Right, You Can Still Be Wrong. ~De La Vega

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If I'm not mistaken the standard for 304 stainless is between 8-10.5% nickel. So the Elkay sinks are 18/8, for example and described as 304. The Franke's increased nickel content (at 18/10) accounts for the higher price, and I believe the luster of 18/10 is more aesthetically pleasing than 18/8.

I am checking with my friendly neighborhood metallurgist, but I think, from a practical matter, almost all 304 stainless sheet goods are of the 18/10 variety these days. I am also asking what the current specs allow for in the range of Cr content. A few years ago, I was involved in an ASTM round robin for testing of austenitic stainless for chloride cracking. We had a hard time getting the lower quality sheet goods for a positive control. Well, we couldn't get it. We will see. I just don't want folks to fall for a lot of hype and spend money unnecessarily. I have been intimately aquainted with cheaper and outrageously expensive stainless sinks and I can't tell the difference due to metallurgy. The main difference has been the surface finish that has nothing to do with the metallurgy.

Dave... want to weigh in on this issue?

Linda LaRose aka "fifi"

"Having spent most of my life searching for truth in the excitement of science, I am now in search of the perfectly seared foie gras without any sweet glop." Linda LaRose

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Some day when I win the lottery (ha!) I'll install a foot rail.  It works in bars and the US Post Office (whatta combo!) so I guess that would work for me.

This is a damn brilliant idea. Toliver, make it and market it. Seriously.

Margaret McArthur

"Take it easy, but take it."

Studs Terkel

1912-2008

A sensational tennis blog from freakyfrites

margaretmcarthur.com

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If you haven't designed the cabinetry yet, clearance issues should be avoidable. Really, depending on your height, consider adding a few inches to the height of the cabinet, which will help compensate for a deeper sink and/or off set drain. I predict that an off set drain will also make for more usable space under the sink.

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Kohler and Elkay, two very large manufacturers of mid-range stainless steel sinks, typically use 18/8. The higher-end firms, Franke, Blanco and KWC included, tend to use 18/10.

As I said, I find the 18/10 more aesthetically pleasing. The two materials function identically as far as I can tell, so it's really a question of do you want to spend the money to get the look.

Sometimes When You Are Right, You Can Still Be Wrong. ~De La Vega

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If you do get one of the higher end sinks with the off-set drain, be sure to get the dish rack that is designed for your style of sink. The generic ones you can get at Bed & Bath or somewhere like that will not have the hole in the right place.

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I noted in the Blanco catalog that they have the racks for the bottom of the sink. I have never had a rack in a sink and I have a hard time visualizing why I would want one? I'm not knocking them, I just don't get it. Looks like something else to wash to me. Enlightenment, please.

Linda LaRose aka "fifi"

"Having spent most of my life searching for truth in the excitement of science, I am now in search of the perfectly seared foie gras without any sweet glop." Linda LaRose

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I predict that an off set drain will also make for more usable space under the sink.

I hadn't thought of that since I was really after the offset drain for easier clean-up. But, you're right - so long as the plumbing is exiting from the same side as the drain. As in: if the drain is on the right and the waste pipe is headed to the right - it's all clear space under the sink. Why didn't I think of that? :biggrin:

Good thread Fifi. We'll all be going "duh" before we're done.

Edited by Nick (log)
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I predict that an off set drain will also make for more usable space under the sink.

I hadn't thought of that since I was really after the offset drain for easier clean-up. But, you're right - so long as the plumbing is exiting from the same side as the drain. As in: if the drain is on the right and the waste pipe is headed to the right - it's all clear space under the sink. Why didn't I think of that? :biggrin:

Good thread Fifi. We'll all be going "duh" before we're done.

Hot damn! That is right! Given that my big sink is in the corner, that gives me one really nice cabinet space!

Linda LaRose aka "fifi"

"Having spent most of my life searching for truth in the excitement of science, I am now in search of the perfectly seared foie gras without any sweet glop." Linda LaRose

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If I'm not mistaken the standard for 304 stainless is between 8-10.5% nickel. So the Elkay sinks are 18/8, for example and described as 304. The Franke's increased nickel content (at 18/10) accounts for the higher price, and I believe the luster of 18/10 is more aesthetically pleasing than 18/8.

I am checking with my friendly neighborhood metallurgist, but I think, from a practical matter, almost all 304 stainless sheet goods are of the 18/10 variety these days. I am also asking what the current specs allow for in the range of Cr content. A few years ago, I was involved in an ASTM round robin for testing of austenitic stainless for chloride cracking. We had a hard time getting the lower quality sheet goods for a positive control. Well, we couldn't get it. We will see. I just don't want folks to fall for a lot of hype and spend money unnecessarily. I have been intimately aquainted with cheaper and outrageously expensive stainless sinks and I can't tell the difference due to metallurgy. The main difference has been the surface finish that has nothing to do with the metallurgy.

Dave... want to weigh in on this issue?

I would only note that 18/10 is nearly impossible to find in cookware anymore, either. When you find it, it's nothing you would want to buy, not because it's cheaper steel, but because the cheaper steel apparently goes along with cheaper manufacturing and a less thoughful design aesthetic.

This is not to disparage Kohler and Elkay, who make fine products. It's a general observation based mainly on examining utensils and cookware, and not sinks.

I assume the extra 2% nickel is related to brightness of the finished surface, and not to durability or to a particular finish. I surmise that the actual finish is a mechanical process; you see 18/10 in polished, satin and brushed finishes, and the warranty on such products does not vary. I've never seen a s/s sink in anything but a brushed finish; I assume that's to disguise the inevitable scratches.

Other than that, I don't know -- as you say, fifi, "I am not an expert." I've had cast-iron sinks for as far back as I remember, and never gave them a lot of thought. I picked my last one for size and color, and didn't consider the other issues that have been explored on this thread. I agree with Nick, it's been great.

Dave Scantland
Executive director
dscantland@eGstaff.org
eG Ethics signatory

Eat more chicken skin.

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I noted in the Blanco catalog that they have the racks for the bottom of the sink. I have never had a rack in a sink and I have a hard time visualizing why I would want one? I'm not knocking them, I just don't get it. Looks like something else to wash to me. Enlightenment, please.

Um, because I grew up with a rack in the sink and I've always had a rack in the sink? Hmm. I've gotta think about this one.

A plastic coated rack in a porceline sink is necessary to protect glassware & dishes from breakage. But do I really need a metal rack in my metal sink? What do I use it for? The main purposes seem to be:

  • 1) To keep glasses & dishes elevated off the sink bottom - either for cleanliness or to protect the sink. Both of these reasons are irrelevant. The dishes are usually dirty when they enter the sink and I'm not concerned about little scuffs and scrapes in the metal. After the first few small scratches you've just got to admit you can't keep these things looking new for long.
    2) As an actual dish rack when cleaning dishes (i.e. vertically supporting the edge of plates as you hand wash). I very rarely hand wash, having a fancy schmancy dishwasher and all, so only use it for this purpose occasionally.

So, back to the original question, do I really need the rack? No, probably not. But I like having it for the occasional times I need it and I am just so used to having one, it would feel weird without it. Cleaning it is no problem. Most times when I run the dishwasher, I just add the rack to the upper level (horizontally over the glasses and misc items). Doesn't interfere with the cleaning of anything else and cleans up just fine there.

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I have a shallow rack living on the bottom of one of the sinks permanently and find it very useful. I like to clean out pots/pans, mixing bowls, utensils, etc. as I go rather than let them pile up. Also, I don't find that the dw does a very good job on pots/pans, even stainless.

"Half of cooking is thinking about cooking." ---Michael Roberts

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I was at my brother's house yesterday and was reminded again how nice my sink is. Their's is large in inches square, but shallow in depth (5 inches?). No soap dispenser, no spray nozzle. How can they survive? (This is, of course, a joke. Because their house (and kitchen) is a thousand percent tidier than ours.)

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  • 4 months later...

We installed a huge stainless sink (24"x18") and pretty deep (12"). The sink is seamlessly integrated in a custom designed ss countertop. The sink is large enough to put all pans inside after cooking. After dinner, they can wait there until next morning (the kitchen is one large informal living room actually). And we can clean especially large baking tins very easy as well.

The integrated worktop is about 32" deep which is useful for putting everything at hand (soap, mise en place, etc.). Same time, you get very deep drawers (full extendible a must).

There's another double prep sink near the range. Very practical in a two person cooking kitchen. The doble sink is turned 90 degrees, so the smaller sink is placed behind the larger one. Most of the time the smaller sink serves for holding washed vegetables, more like a sieve. Nice gadget.

We took commercial grade faucets and a pro pre-rinse spray (imported from the US, made by Chicago faucets, relatively cheap compared to the stuff produced here (KWC, Franke) and indestructable.

The combination of a large sink, deep worktop and a prep sink is the most important piece in a generous private kitchen, I think. More important than anything else. Cleanup is an easy game, almost fun.

Regards

Make it as simple as possible, but not simpler.

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a note to add to this - make sure you get taps (and I agree, a single mixer tap, not separate hot + cold) that you can turn on and off with your elbows - looks a bit 'pass the scalpel please, nurse', but it drives me INSANE that in my current kitchen, if the phone rings, I have to turn on the tap with my bread-dough covered hand before I can run the water to wash my hands. And then have to waste more time wiping the tap down before I can get back to my work. Elbow taps, elbow taps.

Also, had you considered getting deeper-than-normal work surfaces? I'm going for ones that are 60cms deep plus a shallow (8cms high, 25cms deep) step shelf at the back, so you can put electric kettle, knife block, herbs + spices tray, wooden spoon pot, etc on the shelf and get them OFF the work surface - makes it look less cluttered and makes for easier clean up as you don't have to lift all the items to wipe underneath.

can't wait to see photos of the finished kitchen!

Fi

Fi Kirkpatrick

tofu fi fie pho fum

"Your avatar shoes look like Marge Simpson's hair." - therese

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I am glad this has popped up again. I have been looking at sinks at various friends' kitchens. I am more convinced than ever that I should go for the size and depth that I can get (stainless steel) and not fall for any really high dollar deal. (More than $1000 for a sink? I don't think so.) My el cheapo big sink/little sink in my house was performing admirably after 6 years and I can't see a whole lot of difference.

I haven't found a single valve faucet with the elbow things. I am considering a foot pedal if I can get it.

Yeah... Pictures... First I have to build the damn thing. I have been procrastinating because it is such a PITA. (I have done this before a few times.) My New Year's resolution is to get it done.

Linda LaRose aka "fifi"

"Having spent most of my life searching for truth in the excitement of science, I am now in search of the perfectly seared foie gras without any sweet glop." Linda LaRose

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We installed new counters/sink over the summer when Corian was having their sale. I do like having a large, deep sink for big pots and the like. It's also nice that it is integrated, especially when cleaning up.

I couldn't really find the elbow thing faucet either, but we did end up with one you could turn on with your wrist at least! Plus, it's kind of cool: http://www.chicagofaucet.com/catalog/catal...PR&FamilyID=149 The spout swivels around to where you need it. And I just like the way it looks! :biggrin:

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I haven't found a single valve faucet with the elbow things.

I am considering a foot pedal if I can get it. 

We took a similar to this one:

50-317CP.jpg

This are wrist style levers. You can opertate them easily with the backside of your hand. Personally, I don't miss single valve. You can change the shape of the spout.

$140.

Here, you have a single valve "surgical/clinic" style lever:

KWC Orcino

Scroll to the bottom page 10 (in the pdf).:

KWC ORCINO

•Copper supply lines

•With long lever

•Swivel spout 160° with pull-out spray

– TAC turn and clean aerator

– automatic diverter reset

– with lockable needle spray

– pull-out length 27"

•Conservation ceramic disc cartridge

with adjustable temperature and flow rate limitation

•Mounting hole size Ø =13⁄8"

•Flow rate: 2.2 gpm@60 PSI

The long lever is retrofitted and should match with different models.

Pedal:

Pedal valves

Street prices are about 70% of the indicated price.

Regards

Make it as simple as possible, but not simpler.

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Thanks, Boris. Some of those look really good. I will print that out and take it with me to the plumbing supply guy. I have to disagree on the double valve arrangement. This apartment kitchen has taught me that I REALLY want a single mixer valve like I had in the house.

Linda LaRose aka "fifi"

"Having spent most of my life searching for truth in the excitement of science, I am now in search of the perfectly seared foie gras without any sweet glop." Linda LaRose

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My two cents since we just redid our kitchen. Settled on Franchi Manor House sink. http://www.franke.com Commercial grade thickness SS and ONE BIG OPENING(33"). Companion faucet is Franke Single handle Pot Faucet that works like a dream. Franke "Little Butler" on order to complement and provide instant hot water for tea/coffee and filtered cold water. Go to http://www.homecenter.com for the best prices. You will have to call to order specifc finishes but they saved me at least 1K .Be sure to order Franke drain plug as the sink does not come with one. -Dick

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