Are professional schools for amateurs as well

[slkinsey]

Steve and Lesley, thanks. Very interesting.

[beans]

So much depends on each personality. But I think school is a great thing for chefs and amateurs alike. It's an eye opener, and it gives you the chance to mess up or shine.

So Lesley, have you changed your initial perception and answer on this topic?

If so, I'm glad.

I'm just not some little flirt that coersed her way into working shifts in our kitchen during the slower winter months to earn a better meager paycheck, nor have I been that same flirt to get into the blodgett ovens creating some pastry that we did in fact sell. I know what I've done with some vanilla, flour, eggs and butter by far surpassed what they tend to purchase from Northern Haserot and plate up for mere $5.95 a plate with a squiggle of raspberry puree and/or chocolate sauce along with a squirt of carefully placed whipped cream.

I've earned my place and respect by our heart of the house. I will never jeopardize or make light of that. Yet, I am an amateur seriously considering culinary school and not guaranteeing that is where I'll be earning a paycheck upon completion.

[meatman]

I have a perfect culinary background to weigh in on this subject. I started to cook professionally when I was in college. I found out that I liked it and ended up climbing the ladder quite high before I took the big plunge and attended the CIA. I was a good cook before I arrived and a better one when I left. What a formal education in the culinary arts did for me was teach me the why behind the what. I learned technique and chemistry. My class had several " LCB types" or debutantes if you will. Most of the chef instructors were hateful to them. What troubled me was in the last class, the American Bounty room one student was sent to the cooler to retrive a veal inside round and returned with a beef lip-on ribeye. I have allways remembered this story, because for me it exemplified the variable level of education one gets at a trade or skill school. You had to fight your way to the front of the pack if you wanted to see anything.

Anyway, I am rambling on. I went on to a wide and varied cooking career before opting out and joining the wholesale food distribution business and allways felt that would be in better steed with a seasoned "street cook" than some over confident, under experienced culinary grad. More on this later.

As far as a novice or non-professional wanting to attend a school, if you have the money and time, have at it.

[Lesley C]

So Lesley, have you changed your initial perception and answer on this topic?

No.

I never had a problem with anyone -- pros or amateurs -- going to school. To repeat myself for the tenth time...I just think people who want to be professional chefs should be in a professional school that doesn't cost an arm and a leg, and that people who want to cook as a sideline should stick to focused, paying programs.

The examples I know best are the vocational programs here in Quebec and the CAP/apprentissage route in France. These schools aren't just cheap, they're free.

My big beef is with schools like the CIA, FCI, CCI and LCB that feed off the students who choose to cook for a living and don't have tens of thousands to spend on school. A system of public education for future chefs would cut costs for a student who don't have that kind of money. Chefs jobs, for the most part, are not high paying. I don't know how students could manage to pay back such exhorbitant fees. I see no problem with expensive specialty courses for working professionals, but for beginners, it seems insane. No wonder so many young chefs contemplate skipping school to go directly in the work force. They can't afford school. Here and in France most chefs go to cooking school because it's free.

I am an amateur seriously considering culinary school and not guaranteeing that is where I'll be earning a paycheck upon completion.

The minute you or sandra decide to earn money cooking, you become a professional. If you're even contemplating going into the business, it's worth going to a professional school. I had an amateur student who showed up with his secretary to take notes for him. Very nice man, very passionate about cooking, but I wouldn't want to see that person in a professional class.

[fresco]

"I had an amateur student who showed up with his secretary to take notes for him."

Hilarious. Sounds like the perfect item to launch the "most inauspicious beginnings" thread.

[beans]

So Lesley, have you changed your initial perception and answer on this topic?

No.

I never had a problem with anyone -- pros or amateurs -- going to school. To repeat myself for the tenth time...I just think people who want to be professional chefs should be in a professional school that doesn't cost an arm and a leg, and that people who want to cook as a sideline should stick to focused, paying programs.

My somewhat hazy memory (I'm having a very busy "week" at work -- last Tuesday seems like eons ago already) seems to remember you stating amateurs had no place in professional culinary school....

Well, I still think you're wrong. 

I've taught people who want to be pros and people who want to learn to cook. The discipline just isn't the same. And the program isn't the same. Amateurs and professionals make for a lousy mix.

OK, but some here are making claims that amateurs and professionals have equitable skills or should learn the same skills in the same schools. I say, completely false.

The topic of this thread is whether cooking classes should mix future professional chefs and home cooks.

My answer is still no. The type of training is not the same. It’s not about the quality of education. It’s about the type of education and the goal behind such courses.

Bleh, I guess we are splitting hairs. I note you did not qualify which school was appropriate for who, which is a part of the basis for this threadzilla, no?

My big beef is with schools like the CIA, FCI, CCI and LCB that feed off the students who choose to cook for a living and don't have tens of thousands to spend on school. A system of public education for future chefs would cut costs for a student who don't have that kind of money. Chefs jobs, for the most part, are not high paying. I don't know how students could manage to pay back such exhorbitant fees. I see no problem with expensive specialty courses for working professionals, but for beginners, it seems insane. No wonder so many young chefs contemplate skipping school to go directly in the work force. They can't afford school. Here and in France most chefs go to cooking school because it's free.

Why limit that train of thought to merely culinary school? Who would be picking up the tab on and subsidise the tuition for the student? The government that ultimately makes it the masses' social responsibility with oppressive additional tax levies? I mean, those good folks from that educational institution have bills too, so they ought to be earning a paycheck, right? I don't see an ideal answer to this quandry. Althought it is nice to have some sort of well wish about the tuitions/entrance fees be lower and more affordable, but then we're getting into economic debates and re-inventing the wheel on the old supply and demand theory. Why do these schools charge that outrageous amount? Because they can, not to mention they are also offering top notch quality instruction, reputation and all of those post completion networking opportunities.

I am an amateur seriously considering culinary school and not guaranteeing that is where I'll be earning a paycheck upon completion.

The minute you or sandra decide to earn money cooking, you become a professional. If you're even contemplating going into the business, it's worth going to a professional school.

But I have already earned money from cooking, but I am not a "professional." That would be akin to saying the boy flipping burgers for McD's is a professional. (And for those devil's advocates -- sure, okay, that boy is a fast food hamburger patty flipper professional.... yeah, yeah, yeah! I can hear/see it already! )

I had an amateur student who showed up with his secretary to take notes for him. Very nice man, very passionate about cooking, but I wouldn't want to see that person in a professional class.

By chance was this passionate amateur a lawyer? (I sincerely mean no offense -- varmint, Fat Guy, paul o'v, slkinsey or soba -- or to anyone else that has some connection to the practice of law!! Just having a giggle at the expense of my own experiences with that once upon a time career of mine!!! )

[Lesley C]

No, he was a diplomat.

Maybe he was doing research.

[cook foo masta]

You get what you put into it .life will give no gifts without hard work. i have been cooking for 16 yrs. and im now in cullinary school,and geting a lot out of it . so put in what you want out of it .

[NeroW]

I was going to add a new post to this thread, but until it gets a bit less personal and testy, I'll be signing off. I would encourage everyone else to do the same.

Word. Wasn't happy to see this one pop back up to the top.

EDIT: to say whoops! It was linked somewhere, and by posting, *I* popped it back up to the top! Just like earlier today, when I mixed up Italy and Spain in my International Cuisine class, and made focaccia on Spanish Food day! This $32,000 education has taught me nothing! I give up.

Edited March 24, 2004 by NeroW (log)