Tipping on Wine

[mkjr]

I am wondering what people think about tipping on the cost of wine, or if this has been posted before could someone please direct me to the thread that discusses (I apologise in advance if this is the wrong forum). Personally, the idea annoys me, although I still continue to do it. I think I am going to stop in the near future.

[beans]

Shit, I work in the service end and I count on that wine sale to raise my check average and more $$$ to pay my bills. If you are annoyed, then don't eat out and order wine.

[britcook]

I take the food cost, add roughly what the house wine would have cost if I'd had that instead of what I selected and work the percentage on that. It may be miserable but I figure the house is making enough on the wine, if they don't share that with the staff, ain't my problem. Have to say that in the US where markup on wine is generally much more reasonable than in the UK I tend to go more for the straight percentage.

[beans]

britcook:

I see your logic however a server is not responsible for what management and/or owners do with wine mark up. Tip them according to what is ordinary and customary and not cheat them for their running their ass off efforts in your pleasurable dining experience.

[vengroff]

My personal livelyhood has never depended on a tip from wine sales, but I would never consider not tipping on wine. In America, the tipping assumption is woven into the social fabric of the restaurant/customer relationship. Beyond that, it is codified in tax and employment law.

Until and unless a restaurant specifically advertizes that they are charging more than they otherwise would, but paying servers at a rate commensurate with what they would make based on lower prices plus tips, I will continue to tip on both food and wine. The amount I will tip varies somewhat with the quality of the service, but I would almost never not tip.

I know the argument that wine service is different than food service is going to come up in this thread, so I'll go ahead and start it. Some say that opening and pouring a $20 bottle of wine is no more work than opening an pouring a $200 bottle, and thus deserves no more of a tip.

Suppose the same argument were applied to food service, and by extension the tipping that goes along with it. Opening a tin of caviar and scooping it into a little bowl is less work than making a decent hamburger. Does that mean that caviar which costs a restaurant $50 wholesale should be sold for $57, just as $3 of ingredients are sold as a $10 burger and fries? There are several reasons why this is not the case, and most of them apply as much to wine as to food, if not more.

First of all, stocking expensive raw ingredients, like stocking fine wine, ties up capital, which costs money. A good cellar ties up more capital, for a longer time, then a kitchen stocked with even the finest fresh ingredients.

Second, there is necessarily a certain loss percentage associated with any ingredient or wine. Arguably, restaurants have even less control over whether a bottle of wine comes to them corked than they do over spoilage of fresh kitchen ingredients. If your bottle is corked, the restaurant takes it back and opens another one for you. They pay for this by spreading the cost of the bad bottle over all their wine customers.

Finally, as the quality of ingredients or wine goes up, people expect more luxurious service and presentation. Just as the caviar comes with little mother of pearl spoons and a little crystal bowl set in crushed ice, the '85 Chateaux Margaux comes with Reidel glasses and decanters.

So, if you are willing to tip on food on a percentage basis, you should be willing to tip on wine on a percentage basis too. Restaurants operate on a percentage profit basis, not on cost of materials plus fixed fee basis. That's the way the accounting is done, that's the way the taxing is done, and that's the way tipping is done. Is there conceivably a better overal system? Perhaps. But is there a path from where we are to such a system? I sincerely doubt it.

[Stone]

At my last French Laundry meal, we brought three bottles -- which meant $150 in corkage fees. I was a tad annoyed that this resulted in almost $30 in tips. But, as Beans pointed out -- the tips went to the staff, who did as much work for the BYO wine as they did for house bottles. The house on the other hand . . . .

(By the way, there are many threads on tipping policies and practices.)

Edited June 9, 2003 by Stone (log)

[Mark Sommelier]

Think of it this way: you are tipping on service, not wine. No one really expects 20% from the sale of a bottle of Petrus, but people still do it all the time, trust me. The sticky part here is that waiters/servers are assessed income tax based on their gross sales - that means food, liquor and wine. If no one tipped on wine, waiters would get a very raw deal.

[viejo majadero]

MKJR

I think you should follow Beans' advice and not eat out.

What would the tip be then?

or

Maybe the issue should be dealt with. Service should be properly rewarded with a tip but a $300.00 bottle of wine versus a $30.00 bottle are going to be generally served equally. Why should the tip on one be 10 times greater than the other?

Viejo

[beans]

Okay the wine service customer standpoint of the effort between two buck chuck and a '66 Chateau Mouton Rothschild.

The fucking tax man is the great reason to fire back at that rationalization.

Keep in mind your sales volume is one of the records that a restaurant does track in relation to what you are declaring as tips for taxation purposes. Now that really stinks like yesterday's diapers when your sales volume is kicked up because you are lucky enough to have suggested and sold $200 bottles of wine instead of the lowly $20 bottle.

TIP your server. Don't judge their job unless you've done a day in their shoes.

edit: the first inaugural use of the fine epithet by which to express

Edited June 9, 2003 by beans (log)

[tommy]

I am wondering what people think about tipping on the cost of wine, or if this has been posted before could someone please direct me to the thread that discusses (I apologise in advance if this is the wrong forum). Personally, the idea annoys me, although I still continue to do it.  I think I am going to stop in the near future.

why on earth would you "not tip" on the cost of wine? it's clear to even the novice diner that a good amount of service, on which one presumably tips, is geared towards wine service. perhaps even more so than the rest of the aspects of the meal combined.

i'll look for the other threads. from memory, i can say that most will disagree with any suggestion on not tipping on wine. however, some will suggest that 20% on 2 bottles of $300 wine doesn't necessary merit a $120 tip.

[beans]

tommy:

Thank god that wasn't the philosophy of the person I sold $1,500 of wine to one evening. I'm taxed on that sales volume of selling same. Thank you IRS.

[tommy]

tommy:

Thank god that wasn't the philosophy of the person I sold $1,500 of wine to one evening.  I'm taxed on that sales volume of selling same.  Thank you IRS.

is that in the US?

i'm not alone in this approach Beans. how much are you taxed on a sale of $1500?

[amandam]

  Service should be properly rewarded with a tip but a $300.00 bottle of wine versus a $30.00 bottle are going to be generally served equally.  Why should the tip on one be 10 times greater than the other?

Viejo

[glenn]

Keep in mind your sales volume is one of the records that a restaurant does track in relation to what you are declaring as tips for taxation purposes. 

That's against IRS code in the US, though I know it's common practice at some joints. If I were a tipped employee and my employer declared tips for me that I did not earn, I would have them undeclare it, or pay me the tips.

[beans]

tommy:

Oh, I'm taxed for anything that exceeds $20.00 in 30 days worth of time in tips, technically. The IRS knows I earn tips. If what I'm declaring does not even equate a reasonable percentage, well then I'm audited. As well as where I work. And yes, they do view sales volume to the individual as well as the whole staff to the establishment. I've endured that torture and paid more than my share of taxes because whatever bimbo did not.

glenn: what are you looking at?

I've lived through allocations. Re-review the tax code dude. I am taxed on every penny I earn in tips as well as a rule of regulations on my sales volume. If I'm not declaring every penny, per se, then the IRS wonders about when sales volume equals X and the delcared tips are Y (read not even 15 %). Don't dumb down our IRS. They know and they will investigate. I've lived through it. I know.

Folks, the bottom line is tip your server, your bartender and/or sommelier. Why buy a Bentley when all you can afford is the gas and not the insurance to drive the beast?

Edited June 10, 2003 by beans (log)

[KatieLoeb]

If I were a tipped employee and my employer declared tips for me that I did not earn, I would have them undeclare it, or pay me the tips.

Except that with rare exception it goes the other way. As if always walking home with cash in their pockets weren't enough, some waiters and bartenders (obviously not Beans) have this nasty habit of not wanting to pay taxes on April 15 like the rest of us, and feel that being in the service industry and making tips is license NOT to declare income. Having been in charge of payroll at several of my previous places of employment, I can tell you that I would always declare a minimum of 12% of sales, whether an employee asked for that to be done or not. If the volume of sales doesn't match up to at least a fraction of the declared tips at an establishment, the restaurant would be audited and it was MY job to prevent that from happening (and yes - there are adjustments for comps, manager meals, promotions, etc.). Besides, if a reasonable amount of earnings aren't declared, then the employee ends up OWING taxes rather than breaking even or getting a refund as some of us do.

This is neither here not there in terms of tipping however. MKJR, perhaps next time you want to eat out, you should come in a few hours earlier and polish your glassware and silverware, make sure that the salt and pepper shakers on your table are filled, cut lemons for soft drinks and cocktail garnishes, etc. Go get your own bread from the bread station. Make sure you brought your corkscrew so you can open the wine you've chosen and gone and fetched from the cellar. When your appetizer comes up in the kitchen, just tell the server not to bother, and go walk through the kitchen doors and fetch it yourself. Then you'll have to interrupt your meal to go let them know to fire your entree, so there isn't a long wait between courses. Does this sound like a pleasant evening out???? Stay home and be happy. Eat out and tip on service.

[beans]

At my last French Laundry meal, we brought three bottles -- which meant $150 in corkage fees.  I was a tad annoyed that this resulted in almost $30 in tips.  But, as Beans pointed out -- the tips went to the staff, who did as much work for the BYO wine as they did for house bottles.  The house on the other hand . . . .

(By the way, there are many threads on tipping policies and practices.)

Peace and everything else flowery stone, but I wouldn't *dare* do a byob at Charlie Trotter's. That's a penalty fee dude.

[beans]

Katie:

Thank you. If I didn't declare, I would have never qualified for owning a car let alone my house.

I whole heartedly believe, do a day in that server's shoes and then attitudes would be different with regard to tips, notwithstanding the European faction. Done that discovery and learned at another forum.

Peace.

[glenn]

Except that with rare exception it goes the other way. As if always walking home with cash in their pockets weren't enough, some waiters and bartenders (obviously not Beans) have this nasty habit of not wanting to pay taxes on April 15 like the rest of us, and feel that being in the service industry and making tips is license NOT to declare income.....

It's fine to protect the establishment as long as you understand that what you are doing is not entirely kopastetic. Take for example a server who works at your establishment for only 1 shift and the law of averages doesn't apply, and he/she only gets 10% in tips. That person has a right to go back to you and demand you remedy your reporting.

Having said all that, I also prepare the payroll and do virtually the same thing as you. :))

[Kim WB]

If I didn't declare, I would have never qualified for owning a car let alone my house.

However, Beans, in your expereince, don't you find that your behavior is an exception to the rule? I have never, in 10 years of selling real estate , met a serviceperson who did not run into trouble qualifying for a mortgage because they delcared that they made 22k, and wanted to buy a 300k townhouse! It's also prevelant with hair stylists and small business owners. so I'm not just pinning it on waitpersons!

My husband often order multiple bottles of $200 plus wine. He tips 20% on the meal and first boottle,and a flat 10-15 bucks per bottle thereafter. I know for a fact that servers fight for his company's table a the high end restaurants he visits, so he must be in the ballpark. Of course, I am talking about bills that excced $100pp before the wine...

I think there is a medium ground between "tipping 15% on the entire total" and " eat at home if you don't want to pay".

edited to add that I was a waitress for 5 years.

Edited June 10, 2003 by Kim WB (log)

[beans]

Whether I'm an exception or not whatev.

Tip your server. If you can't morally do it, then don't eat out. They are still held accountable for the amount of their sales volume so don't be a shmuck and wimp out on what is rightfully their tip, given they don't stick their finger in your food or drink, at least what you know of....

Folks don't be a cheap bastard when dining out. You'd be surprised to know what a memory servers have with regard to whomever regular joe is that stiffs them.

[KatieLoeb]

It's fine to protect the establishment as long as you understand that what you are doing is not entirely kopastetic. Take for example a server who works at your establishment for only 1 shift and the law of averages doesn't apply, and he/she only gets 10% in tips. That person has a right to go back to you and demand you remedy your reporting.

Glenn:

That servers total sales for any given pay period, are by definition, THEIR sales, whether they are based on one shift or ten. On average for that one shift, they should still be making way more than I declare for them. If not, either they suck and should be fired, or they're a magnet for lousy customers Their percentage of the total restaurant sales for that period might vary from pay period to pay period, but their tips are hopefully at least what I declared for them.

[beans]

Katie:

You are my hero.

[mkjr]

Many thanks to those of you who have replied thus far, your observations and insights have been duly noted.

Please let me apologize for not being clearer in my inquiry.

I originally wrote:

“I am wondering what people think about tipping on the cost of wine, or if this has been posted before could someone please direct me to the thread that discusses (I apologise in advance if this is the wrong forum). Personally, the idea annoys me, although I still continue to do it. I think I am going to stop in the near future.”

I did not say that I was going to stop tipping on wine in the near future. I said I am going to stop tipping on the cost of the wine in the near future.

I agree that not tipping on wine is unacceptable, since there is a definite service that I receive and definite labor and capital cost of providing said service all of which I very much appreciate.

What I intended to say is that I am unhappy with feeling obligated to tip a percentage of cost of the wine that I am charged.

The owner of the restaurant has every right to mark-up the wine in accordance with the costs they incur to acquire the wine, develop and maintain a cellar, and in accordance with other costs incurred such as rents, labor costs etc. that come with running a restaurant. This is their right and when I buy a bottle of wine that includes this mark-up, I pay without hesitation.

However, if I purchase a bottle of wine from the owner, that happens to be $100 or $1000, I do not feel very happy when I feel obligated to tip 20% on that amount, $20 or $200 respectively, and whether or not this is done all the time, and continues to occur, my question was intended to elucidate a discussion of this issue, and this issue only.

I look forward to reading further responses on this point or direction to a thread on this matter, and for those of you who have addressed this issue already, your comments are much appreciated.

I will continue to read the engaging discussion that many of you are providing.

[vengroff]

Is the question of tipping on wine cost really any different than the question of tipping on food cost? Suppose customer A orders a green salad and bowl of soup. Customer B at the next table orders foie gras with black truffles, and a lobster, and had a bill five times as large. When the check comes, A leaves a $5 tip and goes home. B sees this and thinks, "that server didn't work any harder to serve my food, why should I leave any more than $5?"

It seems to me that if you are unwilling to tip on wine cost, you can only be consistent if you are also unwilling to tip on food cost. But that's not how the current system works.