Totonno's Pizzeria Napolitano

[thereuare]

I finally made it to Totonno's in Coney Island last nite.

Just to give a brief history about this place, so you know it ranks up there with the "great ones", this pizzeria was started in the early half of the 1900s from an ex-employee of the original Lombardi's in NYC, and is noted at the second pizza parlour in NYC.

Very non-descript and non-decour type of place, with many articles and pictures of famous people that have visited adourning the walls, and a VERY laid back atmosphere. There seems to be a 'banter' that exists between the owner and one of the waitresses, with them each taking turns yelling at each other and calling the other one "stupid", but they both seem to enjoy it. You can see the decour yourself:

They produce a Patsy Grimaldi type of pie, but with more sauce and a much more charred crust. I think this version is better than the 'under the Brookyn Bridge' Grimaldi pie, but suffers from the same fate of turning soggy after the first 2 slices (it's not the crust which loses its crispiness, it's the dough under the pizza closest to where you take your first bite that loses its crunch). Here's what it looks like:

(notice the thimbles of soda served in a bottle, a pet peeve of mine, as i like to have a constant supply of liquids near me)

I would rank this pizza in the top 5, but it can't take the #1 position. The location is very out of the way and it was a long subway ride to Coney Island, so i don't know if i would necessarily make the trip again just for pizza, but if i was nearby (20 minutes) it would definately be a great stop to eat.

As of now, i'm in a toss up for #1 pizza between Lombardi's in NYC and Denino's in Staten Island... with Lombardi's being another "fresh mozzarella" type pizza and Denino's being a more 'traditional' cheese pie. (i know this is the NJ thread, but it continues my tri-state area pizza journey, so please don't move the post)

[Suzanne F]

There's a branch of Totonno's on the Upper East Side (2nd Ave between 80th and 81st). Have you tried that? Has anyone? Can anyone compare the two?

[Pan]

Thanks for the review and pictures, thereuare.

I notice you didn't mention DiFara's. Have you been there?

[Fat Guy]

These days the pizza at Totonno's doesn't even look particularly great. It tends to be somewhat burnt and somewhat wet. I really don't get the point of using fresh/wet mozzarella on this type of pizza. If you go to the original Patsy's in Harlem, you can order a pizza both ways -- with low-moisture mozzarella and with fresh -- and you can compare. The low-moisture is markedly superior from both a flavor and texture/moisture standpoint. I think Patsy's is the best when it comes to brick-oven pizza in the city (the original Patsy's, not the other ones, which have completely different ownership). Lombardi's makes a technically good pizza but it doesn't do much for me -- the only thing there that I think is superlative is the clam pie.

[bpearis]

Totonno's is my personal favorite NY pizza place... and pizza. The only major place I haven't been is the original Patsy's. The very middle is a bit soggy, but it is great, great pizza. Goes great with the Rheingolds they serve there. If you've never been, it's worth the trip to Coney Island.

[Fat Guy]

I don't find the burnt crust and wet center so easy to ignore as defects. I think those flaws basically take Totonno's out of the running in terms of comparisons to the best places. You'll never get a pizza with those defects at Patsy's in Harlem. They'd sooner throw it in the garbage and make a new one than serve it to you that way.

[eatpie]

The new Totonno's on 2nd and 26th claims to have a coal-burning oven. It was my understanding that for environmental emission reasons coal-ovens are no longer permitted in NYC. Those coal-ovens that existed pre-regulations are grandfathered, but new ones are not permitted.

The new Totonno's does have a beautiful, brand new, double brick-oven setup.

With the oven door ajar, a substantial pile of red-hot material that appears to be coal (or charcoal?) is easily visible. Couple ?'s for those qualified to answer.

Is it likely that this material is coal?

If so, is there now a way to construct coal-fired ovens that meets NY emission standards?

Is it common practice to rest the smoking coals ON TOP OF the pizza stone (at the same level as the pizza)? I seem to recall Lombardi's, Patsy's, Sally's, Grimaldi's etc feeding their coal-fired ovens from BENEATH the cooking surface. Does it make a difference?

I feel like the "curious child" at Passover dinner, sorry for all the ?'s.

The new Totonno's pizza was not particularly impressive. Sauce had absolutely no soul, the cheese had a nice creamy flavor but a slightly rubbery texture. The crust had a quasi-charred appearance which got my blood flowing but, in the end, lacked the smokiness and crunch of a coal-oven charred pizza. That's what turned me into "curious child"

[slkinsey]

With the oven door ajar, a substantial pile of red-hot material that appears to be coal (or charcoal?)  is easily visible.  Couple ?'s for those qualified to answer. 

Is it likely that this material is coal?

Yes, it is.

If so, is there now a way to construct coal-fired ovens that meets NY emission standards?

Not to the best of my knowledge. But the NY laws governing these things are strange. There is any number of reasons it might be allowed.

Is it common practice to rest the smoking coals ON TOP OF the pizza stone (at the same level as the pizza)?

Yes, it is.

I seem to recall Lombardi's, Patsy's, Sally's, Grimaldi's etc feeding their coal-fired ovens from BENEATH the cooking surface.

I can't speak about Sally's, but the other three all have the coal burning in the same chamber where the pizze are baking.

Does it make a difference?

Yes, for several reasons:

• The first part of the process is to franfer the heat from the burning coal to the thermal material of the oven (masonry, brick, whatever) and then from the thermal material of the oven to the pizza via direct conduction (from the oven floor), radiation (from the oven walls) and convection. The thermal material of the oven is much more effectively and efficiently heated if the heat source is inside the oven rather than below it.
  
• A big part of cooking Neapolitan and neo-Neapolitan pizza is that the toppings are cooked by the heat from the fire burning inside the oven chamber which is reflected off the roof of the oven
  

If you're curious, have a look through the discussion in the New York Pizza Survey thread, where many of your questions are directly and more extensively addressed.

[picaman]

The new Totonno's on 2nd and 26th claims to have a coal-burning oven. It was my understanding that for environmental emission reasons coal-ovens are no longer permitted in NYC. Those coal-ovens that existed pre-regulations are grandfathered, but new ones are not permitted.

Does anyone know what was there before? If there was an existing coal-fired oven they could now be cooking their pizzas with it.

Sorry to hear the bad report. I'm going to have to get down there and check it out, as I'm a big fan of the Coney Island Totonno's.

Jamie

[rozrapp]

Does anyone know what was there before?  If there was an existing coal-fired oven they could now be cooking their pizzas with it.

Sorry to hear the bad report.  I'm going to have to get down there and check it out, as I'm a big fan of the Coney Island Totonno's.

A few years ago, Old San Juan, the Puerto Rican restaurant on 9th Ave. & 51st St., opened a satellite in that location. It didn't last long and closed some time ago.

I've never been to the original Totonno's in Brooklyn, but I've heard how good the pizza is there. So, when we went to this Totonno's two weeks ago, I was expecting the pizza to be terrific. Sadly, I have to agree with eatpie that it was totally disappointing -- a very mediocre pizza in every respect. Frankly, I've had better pizza at Andre's, on Third Ave., between 23rd & 24th Sts., and they aren't exactly on anyone's list for great pizza. They have a brick oven, but I don't know what the heating source is.

[Fat Guy]

You're very lucky to get good pizza on any given day even at the original Totonno's. The Upper East Side branch was always poor. There's no reason to think the managers of Totonno's, who give every indication of being completely incompetent save for the ability to turn out the occasional pizza that's as good what Totonno's used to serve, could open a branch with any sort of consistent high quality.

In terms of the emissions and fire laws, I don't think they forbid coal ovens, wood ovens, or anything of the sort. I think the issue is that if you build a new one you have to conform to more regulations than if you just move in like a hermit crab and utilize an old one.

Coals can either be in the chamber or under it. At Sally's they're under; at Pepe's they're in; etc.

[JosephB]

If so, is there now a way to construct coal-fired ovens that meets NY emission standards?

I posted this in the NYC Pizza Survey a few weeks ago.

Some of you may be interested, as I was, to know the law with respect to coal-fired ovens in NY.

After a small bit of research, I found that § 27-848.04 of the NYC Admin Code. (Building Code) requires that all applications for the installation of fireplace and stove equipment must comport with the City’s Air Pollution Control Code, which prohibits at Admin. Code § 24-173 the use by any person of solid fuel in fuel burning equipment, except that solid fuel in the form of anthracite coal (bituminous coal is absolutely prohibited) can be used for fueling boilers in existence on or before May, 1968.

This certainly explains why no new coal ovens can be built in NYC, but doesn’t explain how the existing coal-fired pizza ovens became grandfathered. The statute permits coal to be burned in coal-fired boilers existing before 1968, but says nothing about coal-fired ovens – a pizza oven is not a boiler. Suffice to say that there must be some administrative decision somewhere which allowed Grimaldi’s and the others to revive the old coal ovens they found.

[Fat Guy]

I'm pretty sure section 848.04 doesn't apply to the types of stoves used in cooking. At least, section 848.01, which seems to be the umbrella for 848.xx says: "This article shall not be construed to apply to a central heater with hot air distribution, a central boiler with either hot water or steam heat distribution or a water tank, water heaters, furnaces or cooking stoves." The section seems to be silent on the question of ovens, assuming there is a difference between an oven and a "cooking stove."

My understanding is that you can burn wood or anthracite coal or nuclear waste so long as you conform to the environmental and fire codes, which require that you provide various forms of insulation and fire suppression, and that your smokestack be equipped with a catalytic converter and that it clear the surrounding buildings by a certain number of feet. I don't have a particularly good mechanism for searching the codes, though -- I'm just reporting what I've heard from various people who have had success installing barbecue pits and wood-burning ovens.

[eatpie]

I remember reading that Angelo's on W 57th St found an old bakery's coal oven and moved it into their 57th St locale. That was the first I heard about the pre-1968 grandfather clause. I ate there a good 5 years ago and remember the $20+ pie pissed me off and vowed never to return.

When the much lamented Picasso Cafe (anyone know what happened to Michael "the pizza maestro"?) opened on 29th St I had a few discussions with Michael about getting his pizza oven installed. He had a beautiful clay oven built that the city would not let him use. The cost of fixing his smoke outlet to meet city regulations was cost prohibitive. He ended up purchasing some kind of modern steel type oven while the clay/brick oven sat unused in the kitchen. Regardless, he still made crisp, wafer thin, tasty Neapolitan pies...that guy was a legend!

[picaman]

There's no reason to think the managers of Totonno's, who give every indication of being completely incompetent save for the ability to turn out the occasional pizza that's as good what Totonno's used to serve, could open a branch with any sort of consistent high quality.

I agree that the Upper East Side outpost is sketchy. However, I go to the Coney Island Totonno's several times a year before Brooklyn Cyclones games and, without exception, have gotten consistently great pizza. Admittedly, I was never there in Totonno's mythical heyday, but current-apples to current-apples, it's my favorite NYC pizza. I'd be interested in a fuller explanation of their "incompetence."

It's probably not an easy thing to export good pizza willy-nilly, even given the advantages of superior equipment. I'll try the new place, but I'll steel myself for disappointment.

Jamie

[Fat Guy]

To me, the crust despite its attractive blistering is too spongy and flaccid -- puffy as opposed to crispy-but-pliable the way it's supposed to be -- and has no real flavor other than the char. What I've written in the past about the sauce is that it "tastes as though it's made from nearly spoiled tomatoes -- like bad unripe supermarket tomatoes left on the windowsill for too long in the naïve hope that they'll magically find within themselves the energy to become good tomatoes." The cheese is quite good, but I prefer Patsy's in Harlem, which uses low-moisture mozzarella -- for coal oven pizza, it's better.

In my old pizza guide I had an illustrative quote from my friend Neil -- one of the greatest fressers in the land -- about Totonno's:

"Jerry Pero, Totonno's old owner, the son of the original owner and the actual pizza maker -- he's the only guy I ever saw at the oven, ever, in my many visits there -- was a surly misanthrope. (As opposed to the sunny, cheerful type of misanthrope.) With him at the helm, there was a tense atmosphere -- analogous to the Soup Nazi's place, except that Pero didn't even deal with the customers; he had his back to us as he made pizza, and if he did turn around you'd want to avoid eye contact. It was clear that he set the tone, and that the workers were afraid of him. His pizza really was the best, better even than Sally's and Pepe's in New Haven. But with the king gone, the workers relaxed. The kids took over and, typically, liberalized the atmosphere, spent money and fucked everything up. They took some of the presumably abundant cash (or found an investor) and opened a friendly, chic Upper East Side place (the polar opposite of the Coney Island locale and atmosphere). They made the original branch more user friendly, actually painting the name on the windows to let people know it was there, opening their doors almost all week long, and decorating the walls with all kinds of cute and superfluous self-serving stuff (framed Zagat comments, etc.) that Jerry would have torn down and incinerated, not that anybody would have dared to post them in the first place during the Jerry era. The bottom line, of course, is that the new generation didn't learn to make pizza the way Jerry did. Now, it sucks."

[eatpie]

That quote is genius -LOL

For what it's worth, I called Totonno's earlier today to deal with a lost umbrella. If Mark loses his umbrella on a Tuesday, expect a Noah's Arc deluge on Wednesday. Anyone look outside lately? Anyway, Rene the owner picked up the phone. Before I could deal with the umbrella, she asked me what I thought of the pizza. My response, "it was eh" and "it just wasn't crispy enough." She told me that her customers at the Upper East Side location complained about the "burnt" crust so often that they started pulling out the pies earlier. Now, its the norm.

So, if you decide to give Totonno's in NYC a try and want crisp and charred crust, make sure to let your server know.

[Pan]

So, should I stay home instead of taking a 1-hour+ subway trip to Totonno's in Coney Island on Friday?

[slkinsey]

She told me that her customers at the Upper East Side location complained about the "burnt" crust so often that they started pulling out the pies earlier. Now, its the norm.

Philistines.

[alacarte]

So, should I stay home instead of taking a 1-hour+ subway trip to Totonno's in Coney Island on Friday?

I intend to try both!