The Perfect Kitchen

[confusion]

What would you want in your home kitchen if money was no object? Well almost. Obviously you'd want the best, but would that necessarily mean restaurant equipment? There must be some more practical alternatives, taking into consideration noise levels, ventilation, style (stainless steel does match well with most houses), etc.

But things to think about--

Appliances: The best range? (FatGuy likes DCS), broiler, oven, refrigerator, dishwasher, etc

Other fixtures: Style of cabinets, faucets, pantries, closets, lighting, ventilation, countertop material, floor material

Layout: Location of the cabinets/faucets/pantries, island (where and shape?), height of countertop, overall design

Extras: warmers, extra refrigerators, extra faucets, etc

A lot of these seem subjective, but they should all have clear advantages and disadvantages. What have you all learned from countless hours in the kitchen? Hopefully I'll be able to design my dream kitchen in soon (maybe with the help of a kitchen design specialist), but it would be good to hear some opinions and suggestions.

[Jason Perlow]

The only thing I would really want to add to my kitchen if I had the room was a dedicated wok burner, and perhaps a REAL salamander, although our Garland's infrared broiler does a pretty good job.

[confusion]

I saw your thread about remodeling your kitchen, but couldn't find pictures of the finished product. I would really like to see how it turned out.

[Jason Perlow]

There are a few Imagestation albums:

Perlow Kitchen, before demolishing

Perlow Kitchen being demolished

Perlow Kitchen construction

we never did any "final" photographs but if you want some I think we can arrange that.

[jackal10]

I've laid out a few kitchens, both restaurant and demestic, so I will weigh in here.You need to think how it will be used, and the number you cook for. Restaurant stuff is often inappropriate if you are cooking for two, not two hundred.

Pre-requisite: Enough space. Mine is a former double garage. You wan to be able not only to cook in company, but also to eat and entertain in there.

Good layout. The stove/fridge/sink triangle is important, but also think about how it will be used. For example for serious dinners you might want, as restaurant style, a layout with the equivalent of a pass, and a seperate wash-up area. I have seperate sinks in the laundry room joining the kitchen to achieve this.

>Appliances: The best range? (FatGuy likes DCS), broiler, oven, refrigerator, dishwasher, etc

Ovens: Retaurant stoves are a bad idea, unless you are also going to put in restaurant level ventilation. The give out too much heat, and are overkill for just cooking for two. I *love* my 4 oven AGA, which is the centre of home. Supplement it with a gas wok-burner and two-burner stovetop, one witha low burner for a stock-pot. Also microwave/grill/oven combo. Others I know swear by a steamer. Luxury would be a wood-burning pizza/bread oven in the kitchen as well, but just outside with the smoker and BBQ pit is OK.

Refrigerator: Any that is big enough. I miss my restaurant walk-in, but for a normal houshold that would be silly. Two big friges (with icemaker) is OK, prefeably ones with seperate temperature zones. You might want a smaller expense frige under the countertop in the cooking area, then then main storage can be further away, for example in the laundry area, or handy for unloading when you return form the market.

Dishwasher: It is a mystery to me why domestic dishwashers are so much slower than restaurant ones.

However buy two, then you can load dirty dishs into one, while using clean dishes from the other. A wall plate-rack is also good.

Garbage disposal unit: great invention.

At least two sinks. Pot-wash spray arm in one.

Freezer: small-under counter locally, big freezer(s) elsewhere.

>Other fixtures: Style of cabinets, faucets, pantries, closets, lighting, ventilation, countertop material, floor material

I'm a great believer in natural materials. Wood (American white Oak) for the cabinets, properly made. Solid wood, not veneer or just doors on a fibreboard carcass. Not built-in kitchens (e.g Smallbone) are a good idea and more flexible, where each piece is a seperate piece of stand-alone furniture, but designed to work together. That way the dresser, for example, can become (or maybe already is) a family heirloom. Similarly tables, cupboards etc. I had a local joiner make up the units to my specification, with doors that fit in the frame, not just plonked on the front. Most commercial kitchen units use standard inserts anyway so you can buy the wire shelves, corner turntables etc that you need.

Piano hinges are a good idea, and stop the doors warping.

Lots of cupboards and storage space. Pull-out larder shelves, accessible from both sides are good. Glass fronted cupboards so you can see where things are.

Avoid stainless steel. It may look good, but its hell to keep clean and shows every fingerprint, especially if matt finished.

No contest for countertop material. It must be granite. Use one inch thick material supported by ply, two inches if money no object, but I prefer the look of the thinner top. Round edged. Cheaper then plastic, and more robust. Entirely inert - doesn't scratch, etch or stain. It will keep its good looks forever, and is easy to clean and maintain. You can put hot frying pans down on it without a worry, or cigarette or cigar butts still alight. Marble etches and stains, wood discolours and needs regular maintenance. Only disadvantage is that you might want to use a plastic chopping board to protect your knife edge - the granite will blunt knife edges quickly if you chop on it, but then you would naturally use a chopping board anyways. Why kitchen vendors still persist in selling surfaces that are manifestly not fit for purpose is beyond me.

Lighting: Task oriented downlighting. Incandescent strips under the cupboards

Ventialtion: Serious cooker-hood externally vented. Air conditioning, again with a vent option, would be good.

Floor: Again no contest, natural lino, continous sealed and up the wall to skirting board level. . Easy to clean, you can swill it down, and naturally anti-bacterial. Unlike vinyl, the colour goes all the way through, so wears better. Tile, including quarry tiles, or marble or stone are hard underfoot, can be slipppery and hell to clean. dirt gets into the grouting, that is hard to shift. Keep the tiles on the wall.

Wall: Tiled in the working areas. Gloss or other washable paint elsewhere. Avoid brilliant white - off white is easier to live with.

Layout: Location of the cabinets/faucets/pantries, island (where and shape?), height of countertop, overall design

Layout will depend on use and the shape of the building.

Units come standard heights, widths and depths. Here they are 600mm deep, 300 or 600mm wide and 900mm high. Make sure you can either move them or get underneath (removable foot panel) for cleaning. Think where mice or other nasties might nest or get access.

I dislike fixed island units - I find them isolating and inflexible. Theyare a solid barrier betwen you and your guests, and the thing you want is always on the other side. However you need a moveable table/butchers block or whatever so you can turn round from the stove and have a surface to put something on.

I have a large farmhouse table down the centre of my kitchen (pine, scrubbed every week), and everyone sits round it, and we eat most meals there, read the papers etc.

Extras: warmers, extra refrigerators, extra faucets, etc

Mixer. Small professional one if you are a serious baker.

Food processor (get a small commercial one. DOmestic ones don't stand up to much)

Pan-shelves in grabbing distance

Hanging for spoons, sieves,strainers etc about the stove

Oven themometers/digtal probe thermoters

Toaster

Radio/TV/Hi-fi system

Phone

Pinboard

Wine storage (probably seperate)

Breakfast component area: teapot, tea, coffee etc easy to grab when half awake

Bookshelves.

Hope this helps.

.

[SWoodyWhite]

I wish some of this discussion had been available when my partner started designing our new house. Que sera, as Ms. Day would sing.

I know I'll be happy with the two ovens, both wall mounted instead of under the range. I'm six foot two, and have never been happy with having to get down almost on my hands and knees to see what's happening in the oven. Not to mention the lifting, and the resulting back strain.

What's everyone's thoughts about convection ovens? Bruce was able to get a "deal," so I'll be discovering the pros and cons myself soon enough, I suppose. The good news is that they can easily switch to ordinary oven use, if I want.

Part of Bruce's bribe to get me to agree to moving was the range, with six 14" burners. At long last, room for decent stock pots!

Refrigerator and freezer: I guess most people would want everything handy to the kitchen, meaning on the same floor. Me, I'm an admitted oddball here. We'll have the main unit in the kitchen, but the backup fridge and freezer will be downstairs in the "basement". (The house is built on a hill, with the main floor at street level and a walk-out basement, if that helps you picture the layout. That's part of why the house has been a bitch to build: no one in Delaware knows what a hill looks like!) What I'm planning is for the downstairs units to be used for storage, and the kitchen unit to be the "working" piece, with as much clear shelf space as I can manage. And no, I don't have any problem with lugging stuff from downstairs up to the work area; my back isn't that sickly. The way I figure, if everything was all together, in no time someone would decide to use the extra space in my "working" fridge for storage, and the work space would be gone in a flash.

I am going to have to con Bruce into installing a mini-fridge in his office/study, for all his munchies. It should be a fairly easy con. His study is also where his teapot belongs. And a microwave for his immediate use. (He's going to be so easy to spoil once we move. )

And, one thing we agreed was important from the start: a pass-through counter between the kitchen and the dining room. We plan on entertaining, so having the kitchen open to the dining area is important to me. I refuse to be a kitchen hermit!

Sorry, Jackal, the countertops aren't granite. I didn't get to make that decision. And Bruce "hates" glass doors for the cabinets. The movable table was already a given, however.

Oh, how to people feel about pull-out drawers for storage below the counter-level, as opposed to cupboards with doors at that level? I think they're easier to work with, again because of back strain but also because of visability.

As for bookshelves, the cookbooks are going in my personal room, where they belong! (Wall to wall bookcases, of course!) What I need I can move from one room to the other. We're still working out where the laptop computer goes; I want to be able to move it from my room to the kitchen, with Internet hookups in both locations. The argument hinges on the printer, which I don't see as a kitchen utensil but Bruce insists I'll want. Aaargh.

Edited May 18, 2003 by SWoodyWhite (log)

[Fat Guy]

The best range? (FatGuy likes DCS)

Fat Guy likes DCS because he has a limited budget and thinks it's a good compromise. He doesn't think it's the best. He would get a Diva de Provence island with multiple ovens and elements if he could.

[jackal10]

Fat Guy likes DCS because he has a limited budget and thinks it's a good compromise. He doesn't think it's the best. He would get a Diva de Provence island with multiple ovens and elements if he could.

That's just a stove. Its not a ton a and a half of iron and insulation, warm and purring, always on and ready to cook or snuggle up to.

Four oven Aga, plus the new Aga Extension, giving six ovens, two hotplates/griddles, plus two burners, wok burner and stock-pot burner. Four ovens at preset temperatures, including very hot and one at 75, perfect for the new extended cooking, another conventional oven and an oven/broiler. Indestructable. Any fuel you like, including coal.

Aga Ranges

Edited May 18, 2003 by jackal10 (log)

[Peter B Wolf]

Since money were no object, don't know yet what all I would want. But:

Select all first, then placement, and here is the clincher,

THEN BUILD THE WALLS . LIKE 'WRAPPING IT UP' !

A storage pantry adjacent, ventilated, but dark and cool.

No more chest freezer, a full size 'Upright'.

That's for starters.

[NeroW]

Convection burners.

[Lesley C]

A La Cornue Palais 160 with the Chateau Kitchen counters and baskets to match (see www.lacornue.com). And, of course, the whole line of "culinary tools."

Also, a tap behind the stove to fill pots.

Very smart move that extra tap.

[pixelchef]

Jason: I'd love to see some finished photos. It looks absolutely gorgeous in the construction photos.

[Jason Perlow]

Jason: I'd love to see some finished photos.  It looks absolutely gorgeous in the construction photos.

Well, I just tried to take pictures of it now, and I got yelled at to wait until the cleaning ladies come by again.

[Jason Perlow]

Also, a tap behind the stove to fill pots.

Very smart move that extra tap.

We DID get one of those. And for filling big pots for boiling water, its awesome.

[fifi]

I agree with most all of the above.

In my now-being-designed house, I banished kitchen cabinets above the counter. I have enough room to put everything in drawers below the counter. I am short so those upper cabinets are next to useless to me without having a step stool permanently "handy" to be tripped over. And I don't like grovelling on the floor to get at the back of cabinets.

I had a walk in pantry at my previous house. I will never live without one again!

Painting tip for walk in pantries and other storage areas... Paint the ceiling a bright white, the glossier the better. You would be amazed at the difference when you turn on that ceiling light.

A question about the Aga cookers... Does anyone seriously consider one of those in a hot and humid area like the Gulf Coast? I know they have a lot of insulation but I can't imagine having a permanent heat source where you have to pay for air conditioning 10 months of the year. They sure look cool, though.

[Marlene]

We just re-did our kitchen (pics can be found on tommy's bio thread). For the most part, I think we got everything we wanted in it. We did hardwood floors, directional pot lighting and granite counter tops. The cabinets are cherry with the shelving inside is birch stained to match the cherry. The doors are Danish Louvre, which match the lines in the sunroom and the cherry is stained to match our cedar sunroom.

We got a triple sink, with a garburator in the middle, it's been invaluable. We have moen faucet, which also has filtered water. The island is large, with pot drawers on one side, cuboards on the other and one of the ovens at the end. I did not put a sink in the island as I wanted it all for work surface, and the other end of the island is the breakfast bar.

The whole one side of the kitchen is floor to ceiling cupboards. They include, pull out spice racks, a pantry with shelves on the doors, pull out bar, and an appliance pantry with pull out shelves (this is the best. No more moving things to get at my blender, food processor, toaster etc). We have two convection ovens and a side by side 25 cubic food fridge. Every corner has rack storate for hold cookie sheets, cutting boards, racks etc. One of the cupboards is a lazy suzan cupboard. Most drawers have dividers. The cutlery drawer is two tier. Pull out garbage can. We went with a Thermador cook top with a bridge burner. I like it, but it's not as fast as gas for sure. The ovens are kitchen aid, and I love the convection. We have two extra fridges downstairs and a large freezer

Would I do anything different? Yes, if I'd had more room I would have got a huge gas range with multiple ovens.

[confusion]

Wonderful info, especially jackal. I'm trying to come up with some questions but am very busy. There are just too many options, and I have a lot to work with (within reason of course). Does anyone know any additional sources of information? I've been scouring the local library's 'Home' magazines collection.

[pixelchef]

Jason: cleaning lady!? Dude, does your butler type your posts for you so as to not strain your finger musculature? :)

In all seriousness, would you mind saying how much it cost to remodel your kitchen? If you don't feel comfortable with that, I'd understand. More importantly, do you feel it was worth the money/stress?

[Jason Perlow]

In all seriousness, would you mind saying how much it cost to remodel your kitchen?  If you don't feel comfortable with that, I'd understand.  More importantly, do you feel it was worth the money/stress?

Pixelchef, I'd rather not go into details... suffice to say you could buy a really nice car with it.

It was definitely worth the money, but not having a functional kitchen for almost 6 months was a horrendous experience.

For those of you interested in reading our harrowing tale:

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=7407

Note that a lot of the embedded graphics links are broken, use the Imagestation links I posted early in this thread instead.

[oraklet]

no granite counter top for me. drop a plate or a glass or...on it, and that love is instantly cured. hey, one can't even throw one's knife aside when in a hurry.

wood is good, 'long as it's properly seasoned and treated.

and i'd love to have a double sink. helas, no room for that.

[Marlene]

Pixelchef, unlike Jason and Rachel, we were very lucky with our kitchen reno. Even though they ripped everything out, floor to ceiling, wall to wall, they were more or less done in three weeks. I had been apprehensive about how long it was going to take because I'd heard horror stories from lots of other people about delays and stuff, but we got really lucky. Our major delay was that the contractor ordered the wrong pot light trims and we had to wait a couple of weeks after the kitchen was done for them, but it was not a big deal. It was however, very inconvenient even for three weeks, and if I'd been without a kitchen for 6 months like Jason and Rachel, I might have been prepared to kill someone. It was pretty expensive and dusty!. But it was soooo worth it.

[Schielke]

Just a quick side, how much do those ranges listed above cost? They are so beautiful...I think I shed a tear when I saw the Diva Island.

[KatieLoeb]

In addition to the tap behind the stove for filing pots (brilliant!), I'd want a foot pedal to operate the water at the other sink for when hands are full or scouring. Pull up shelves in the cabinets for larger appliances like the KitchenAid mixer, food processor, etc. so as not to take up too much counter space. Pull out cutting board; divided drawers; a spice cabinet with pull out shelves (like bookshelves) that go "into the wall", that are accessible from both sides and go back into the cabinet; pot shelves that have racks inside the doors for pot lids; mediterranean tile backsplash; Corian countertop; butler's pantry; dual temperature wine storage fridge; wood burning brick oven with a rotisserie (like Lydia Bastianich has in her kitchen) for cooking meat on a spit and pizzas.

Well - you did say money was no object!

[GordonCooks]

I'll take Mark Miller's Kitchen

[NeroW]

Jason: I'd love to see some finished photos.  It looks absolutely gorgeous in the construction photos.

Well, I just tried to take pictures of it now, and I got yelled at to wait until the cleaning ladies come by again.

Cleaning ladies? Sacre Bleu!

I have one of those too. If by "cleaning lady" you mean "roommate."