TDG: Bone Soup

[Fat Guy]

If Jason and Steven are willing, I'll post a soy essay.

Bring it on!

I'm sure everybody would also love, at some point, to hear about your experiences starting and managing various farmers markets . . .

[Rachel Perlow]

Great article, despite the pointed out shortfalls. I'm curious about the seasoning/herbs you add to your stock. Usually, I just use basic ones like black pepper and parsley which add a good base flavor, and wait to add stronger flavors until I am making an actual soup or sauce. When you say you sometimes add "star anise and cloves, lemon grass and ginger" all I can think of making of a stock with those flavorings is Vietnamese Pho or Thai Tom Yam Kai. Not that there's anything wrong with those soups, but I can't imagine using the stock any other way.

Edit: Do you ever use Olive Oil? How do you know when it's gone carcinogenic?

Edited May 14, 2003 by Rachel Perlow (log)

[Nina Planck]

Boiling v simmering . Thanks for pointing that out. I bring it to a boil and then simmer. It wasn't clear.

Olive oil: I don't know the temperature at which the oil is unstable, but it's certainly a cooking temperature. So, usually, I don't heat olive oil at all. I use it cold or add it to hot foods at the end.

However, for sauteeing it's still so delicious, and I love it when I roast vegetables. I don't worry about it. When I do sautee or roast with olive oil for that fruity, vegetal flavor, I try to use use half oil, half heat-stable fat (like unrefined coconut oil, butter, or lard).

Flavoring stock: I've tried all those things with beef and veal stock (star anise, etc) but my favorite is still black pepper and bay leaf. It's also more flexible as you point out. But what fun to play with that, and with the vinegar/acid: straight leftover red wine is the best foil for beef I think.

When I'm making stock to freeze I add no seasonings but salt.

[trillium]

Hi there,

Thanks for taking time to be here. I'd like to respond to a few of your comments.

Soy: the soy industry here would have you believe that isolated soy protein, sugar, and vegetable oil (the basic ingredients in soy milk) has been eaten by Asians for 5,000 years, when the Chinese first learned that soy must be fermented to make it fit for human consumption. It is indigestible without fermentation and was before then used as a nitrogen fixer (adding fertillity to soil as a cover crop) and as animal fodder.

Can you define what you mean by fermentation please?  It's my understanding that tofu is made by coagulating proteins in soya milk with mineral salts.  Are you referring to an enzymatic activity by yeast or bacteria?  Additionally, while the ingredients you list as the basic ingredients in soya milk may be true for some products, it is not true for others, even western ones.  Silk, put out by White Wave, is a national brand whose ingredient lists do not show isolated soy protein or vegetable oil, and you can buy it in an unsweetened version.

Some soy industry types recommend you eat 100 g of soy a day. Yet Asians average 10 g per day - one-tenth.  Asians eat soy fermented, as a condiment, and in combination with animal foods which makes it more nutritious. They don't eat soy as a substitute for animal foods. Tofu, miso, natto, soy sauce: these are traditional soy foods. Enjoy them.

I find that statement to be misleading, and wrong, actually.  There is a significant population of vegetarians (mostly Buddhists) in many, many Asian countries.  There is a very developed cuisine based entirely on faux animal parts made from various plant products. I don't disagree that the processed crap being put out by major food makers here in the US as healthy is greedy marketing and actually bad for you, but I think it takes away from your argument when you support it with statements that just aren't true.

Complete Protein  A purely vegan diet with no animal foods presents many deficiences. The best quality proteins are in animal foods. No single plant food contains all the essential amino acids, and in combination, plant foods are still inferior - for protein - to animal foods. Try www.beyondveg.com.

For more, see www.westonaprice.org, a foundation dedicated to real food and accurate nutritional advice.

Vegetarians and vegans are two very different groups of eaters, lumping both together is unfair. I'm talking about vegetarians. The evaluation of protein quality is very complex, even nutritional scientists cannot agree on standards to evaluate a certain protein's "quality" and this is a pretty busy area of research. Instead of just counting amino acids in a protein, many nutritional scientists feel we should judge "quality" by how the body can retain or utilize a protein, the protein's digestibility and the bioavailability of individual amino acids, in addition to the essential amino acid content. Research indicates that some people have adaptive mechanisms that allow them to utilize plant proteins much more efficiently then expected. Of course, there are micronutrients that vegetarians have to be concerned about, since they need to be careful that their diet provide enough of the oft-quoted B-12, but also certain fatty acids and other mineral salts. However, I fail to see how in order to extol the virtues of animal products such as meat, which I enjoy eating, you need to put a vegetarian diet down as inferior. The area of nutritional research is not that black and white.

It's my understanding that most nutritional scientists agree that diets based on a variety of non-processed plant products can provide protein in the quality and amounts needed for a healthy human. I'm coming to that conclusion based on articles and discussions I've read that are published in peer-reviewed scientific journals. A nice review: Millward DJ. The nutritional value of plant-based diets in relation to human amino acid and protein requirements. Proc Nutr Soc. 1999; 58: 249–260.

regards,

trillium

Edited May 14, 2003 by trillium (log)

[Nina Planck]

Trillium,

Thanks for the reply!

I don't conflate vegan and vegetarian diets. I say that a vegan diet presents deficiences. I say that there are no traditional cuisines which are purely vegan and that the only complete (and the highest-quality) proteins are found in animal foods. That doesn't mean there are not careful vegetarians who thrive on a vegetarian diet. Many Indian cuisnes are vegetarian. Those curries call for many eggs and dairy, often fermented.

Fermenting is a traditional process in many cultures wiht many foods from miso to vinegar to bread to sauerkraut to kimchee to cheese to wine to fish sauce. It starts with some kind of live culture or bacteria. Fermentation enhances nutritional value, usually because B vit are produced but also sometimes b/c fermentation makes foods more digestible. That's the case wiht yoghurt, for ex, for people who don't tolerate milk, and with soy, which contains high amounts of phytic acid. Phytates are so-called 'anti-nutrients' because they prevent the absorption of nutrients. Phytates in soy (and in grains) are neutralized by soaking and fermentation. Hence soaking of rice and other grains in many cultures.

The Chinese learned to ferment soy about 5,000 years ago. The soy industry products I'm talking about - promoted by many thousands of ad dollars - are not fermented. They are mostly soy protein with added flavors to make them mimic traditional foods, like margarine is dyed yellow to make it mimic real food: butter.

Eat the traditional foods instead! Sounds like we are in agreement on most things here.

I highly recommend www.westonaprice.org for more.

Best wishes, Nina

[Xanthippe]

If Jason and Steven are willing, I'll post a soy essay.

Bring it on!

I'm sure everybody would also love, at some point, to hear about your experiences starting and managing various farmers markets . . .

I'll look forward to the soy essay, Nina, as well as your insights w.r.t. farmers' markets. I've just returned from one of our local venues laden with the bounty of this fertile area; if anything, I probably overbought, as I'm like a kid in a candy store when at the market!

Thanks for your time.

[trillium]

Trillium,

Thanks for the reply!

I don't conflate vegan and vegetarian diets.  I say that a vegan diet presents deficiences. I say that there are no traditional cuisines which are purely vegan and that the only complete (and the highest-quality) proteins are found in animal foods.  That doesn't mean there are not careful vegetarians who thrive on a vegetarian diet.  Many Indian cuisnes are vegetarian. Those curries call for many eggs and dairy, often fermented.

Fermenting is a traditional process in many cultures wiht many foods from miso to vinegar to bread to sauerkraut to kimchee to cheese to wine to fish sauce. It starts with some kind of live culture or bacteria. Fermentation enhances nutritional value, usually because B vit are produced but also sometimes b/c fermentation makes foods more digestible. That's the case wiht yoghurt, for ex, for people who don't tolerate milk, and with soy, which contains high amounts of phytic acid. Phytates are so-called 'anti-nutrients' because they prevent the absorption of nutrients. Phytates in soy (and in grains) are neutralized by soaking and fermentation. Hence soaking of rice and other grains in many cultures. 

The Chinese learned to ferment soy about 5,000 years ago. The soy industry products I'm talking about - promoted by many thousands of ad dollars - are not fermented. They are mostly soy protein with added flavors to make them mimic traditional foods, like margarine is dyed yellow to make it mimic real food: butter.

Eat the traditional foods instead! Sounds like we are in agreement on most things here.

I highly recommend www.westonaprice.org for more.

Best wishes, Nina

Hi again,

Thanks for explaining your position, it does indeed sound like we're in agreement on many things. I'm all for dismissing processed foods touted as healthful because they contain soy proteins when in fact they're nutritional garbage and taste bad to boot. I just don't like seeing things generalized to the point that they aren't factual.

I wanted to point out

1. there is a significant population of vegetarian ethnic Chinese (Buddhists) in many Asian countries that do in fact, eat a lot of faux meat stuff made from plant products (the things they can do with gluten!).

2. Tofu when eaten in its plain form, is not fermented, nor is fresh soya milk. I'm not talking about the red and white chou tofus which certainly are fermented and used as a condiment. Both are consumed with regularity in many Asian countries, but are not considered substitutes for anything else, where dairy is much more rarely consumed.

3. Most nutritional scientists don't think you need to get all your essential amino acids (essential aas = complete protein) in one meal or even in one day, so whether a food is a "complete protein" or not is not as important as whether your diet is varied (that goes for meat eaters too).

Thanks for the link, I actually prefer to read nutritional studies in the primary literature, so I can draw my own conclusions from the data (it's the analytical scientist in me... a fault, perhaps) .

Thanks again for spending time here.

regards,

trillium

[corvus]

Nina:

I enjoyed your first article and look forward to reading more of your work. I could tell from reading it that you were a proponent of "Nurishing Traditions". I feel the same way about food. I enjoyed my first bowl of oatmeal in two years this morning after having let it soak with yogurt overnight. Of course I loaded it up with buttter. :-) I hope you'll continue to bring those ideas forward in your articles as more people need to hear it. When will that next book of yours be published?

[Nina Planck]

Almond Milk

A nice way to make it:

Soak almonds in juice overnight.

Whizz in blender.

A pinch of salt helps.

I use ones with skins.

Nina