More to Southern cuisine than barbecue

[kpurvis]

how come no one mentions Q from so. carolina? seems most, if not all, the comments above deal only with Lex, NC & environs, "as if" that is the only area worthy??!!

That's a good question, and one I've pondered occasionally. ("on a midnight dark and dreary, as I ponder weak and weary, where my next brisket sandwich is coming from . . . ")

My theories:

1. South Carolina barbecue is harder to sum up in a neat description. (No, it's not all mustard, mustard is just in a small pocket around Columbia in my experience). South Carolina barbecue is all over the board, with whole pig in some places and chopped in some places and all kinds of different sauces. Faced with something hard to describe, people tend to just not describe at all.

2. South Carolina is very rural, with big pockets of people concentrated in Columbia, Charleston and Myrtle Beach. Visitors are usually just whipping through on their way to one of those places and the notable barbecue places are often farther off the path. It's not like flying in to Charlotte for a business trip and running up to Lexington or over to Shelby for an afternoon.

The truly great S.C. places, like Sweatman's, take some effort to get to.

3. If a national writer on the caliber of a Craig Claiborne comes to the Carolinas, it's easy to fit in an N.C. barbecue jaunt on the way to interview somebody like a Bill Neal or a Ben Barker. But if a national food writer goes to South Carolina, they tend to fly straight to Charleston and skip everything else.

[baruch]

well-said kpurvis.

a bunch of us south carolineans might have to come after you! SC rural???? hey, have u ever been to florence, orangeburg, st. matthews, etc

& IF u are a TRUE Southerner, u would NEVER mention brisket, bbq, & the South in the same sentence!!!!

FYI: SC bbq is mostly about pork shoulders/boston butts, & sauce- characterized as follows:

mustard-based from center of state, the " midlands", down through the "low-country" in the southern part of the state;

vinegar & pepper-based in the northeast, around myrtle beach;

tomato-based sauce in the northwest, i.e., "upstate"; &

ketchup-based sauce in the river counties, the Pee-Dee, along the western border (what do they know? )

now thats pretty clear, n'est-ce pas? good Q SHOULD be hard to neatly classify!!!

&, it is also true about sweatman's - it IS out-of-the-way, i know, i've driven way out-of-the-way to get there, but of course, it was worth it!!!! but hell, sweatmans's is not even the best!!!!

&, by-the-way, who in his right mind would EVER want to go to charlotte or atlanta???

& lastly, would be quite difficult for mr. claiborne to visit, in that he had passed on to that great BBQ PLACE above!!!

Edited May 14, 2003 by baruch (log)

[Bill Klapp]

It amazes me that the thread is as long as it is, with very few people willing to step up and name names. I'll name one-Crook's Corner in Chapel Hill, NC. A great restaurant, but not even a barbeque joint. Go figure. No hushpuppies, baked beans or fried okra, and no Brunswick stew. (I am warning you in advance in case you are seeking the full monte barbeque experience.) Just some of the finest NC vinegar-based Q I have ever eaten, served with an atypical red cabbage slaw to die for. I have never met barbeque that I would not eat. Even that heretical beef stuff in the Midwest and Texas. I will say, however, that in the Carolinas, the mustard-based and tomato-based sauces, however delicious they may be, mask the flavor of the pork. In my experience, only the eastern NC sauce, which is little more than vinegar and an assortment of peppers, actually enhances the flavor of pork. (Allen & Sons on the outskirts of Chapel Hill can deliver the full monte for you.)

[Random Alias]

Asking people about Barbecue in NC is just asking for trouble.

Lextion Collection - Allen & Son

This a classical joint, folks, serving the real thing! Run by Mr. Allen's son for over thirty years, it serves hand-chopped barbecue made from shoulders in the classical way over hardwood coals. The vinegar and pepper finishing sauce is unique -- a little eastern, a little western, and a little butter! And, the hush puppies are outstanding.

Shinola NC Barbecue - Allen & Son

Having eaten there several times, I've found it to be only slightly above-average. It's not as good as Bullock's over in Durham, but it's a mite closer to our Carrboro/Chapel Hill domiciles, and it's a nice change of pace when you've seen all those autographed celebrity photos one time too many.

We tend to go to the Chapel Hill location, which is actually way out in the country north of the "State Zoo" (what Ol' Jesse calls this "liberal" college town--but of course The Man We Love to Hate probably thinks Rush and Newt are liberals), and the staff here claim that this is the best of the three. The building is poorly heated, cinder-block, and you're just as likely to be seated in a plastic chair which can made for chilly eatin' in winter. But the rural setting alone seems to improve the flavor; at least for now until the real estate agents strike a deal with someone in local government and build some toxic dump or yuppie condos.

The service is pretty slack; the whole band ate here before our March show at the Lizard and Snake and several times our meals were botched. I was hung over, thanks to Jason's lovely gift of a gallon of cheap wine the night before and I was counting on the barbeque to get me through. I learned a powerful lesson: Don't believe the Mayor. Like all politicians and intellectuals, everything he says is serving some self-justification. Greasy southern breakfasts and barbeques are *not* good hangover cures. If you don't believe me, ask Anthony if you can borrow the videotape of our show that night. Ugghh

Kent's North Carolina-Style BBQ Pag - Allen & Son

Most other NC-Style-BBQ review sites on the Internet give Allen & Son BBQ in Chapel Hill either their highest or next-to-highest review ratings, but to save me, I don't see how. I've been there three times, and three times I've been served barbeque so terrible I literally paid for it and walked out leaving it on the table untouched, not even bothering to ask for a styrofoam container to bring it home so my dog could eat it, because I figured that Ben My Dog would probably turn up his nose at it. The only reasons I can come up with as to why and how it stays in business at all is that Chapel Hill is home to a large non-NC-native population because of it's a "company town" mainly populated by the students and workers at the University Of North Carolina at Chapel Hill (UNC), many of whom are non-native transplants from other regions who've not discovered nearby Bullock's BBQ in Durham and other sources of truly great NC Holy Grub.

[baruch]

QUOTE "I will say, however, that in the Carolinas, the mustard-based and tomato-based sauces, however delicious they may be, mask the flavor of the pork. In my experience, only the eastern NC sauce, which is little more than vinegar and an assortment of peppers, actually enhances the flavor of pork." END QUOTE

not to be arguementative , but the above quote seems somewhat puzzling - can everyone in an entire state be incorrect???? thx for helping us understand . & btw, a bbq "place" , not joint would NEVER serve hushpuppies, fried okra?, or baked beans. WOULD normally serve bbq, bbq ribs, slaw, wonder bread or buns, hash & rice, sweetened tea, pickles (maybe) & texas pete on every table, which normally would be uneven!!

most places are pretty much outside the mainstream, somewhat nameless, but known by the owner/bbq'r's last name, & generally hard to find. would never deny the great Q in NC, but quel horror, they don't have the full monte

Edited May 15, 2003 by baruch (log)

[Varmint]

I find it interesting how this thread started as a question about why we are inundated with questions about barbecue, as if it were the only food worth exploring in the South. Now this hijacked thread has morphed into a question about barbecue, the original issue we were trying to avoid.

Please, let's talk about barbecue, and we can do it here. I'll gladly spend an hour or 5 arguing the merits of any type of barbecue. If you ain't from around these here parts, I'll even consider taking time off to show you a few fine establishments across the state of North Carolina.

However, let's not lose sight of what this thread is truly about: the overall cuisine of the South, as it is indeed far more than barbecue.

Oh, and as far as Allen and Son (not "Sons", as Keith only has 1 son, I guess!) is concerned, Keith Allen does a fine job. He still splits his hickory by hand. His plates are a bit more expensive than you'll find at other places, but to me, it's the best traditional barbecue in the Triangle. Plus, they have a full array of homemade desserts, including homemade ice cream. You don't find that in many barbecue restaurants.

Now what about Brunswick Stew . . . ?

[baruch]

its true!! the original question had to do with southern cuisine BESIDES bbq; however, the South has become so homoginized that 1 of the few things that really seems to differentiate it from the rest of the country is, in fact, BBQ + its speciality dishes within that circle, i.e., brunswick stew, hash & rice. when expanded "just a touch" u enter the world of frogmore stew, hushpuppies, & a few others. maybe the better question would be: what dishes would one feel more likely to eat in the SOUTH that are BOTH prepared like no one else can && are identified with southern cuisine????

travelling around the country these days, u are just as likely to be able to order a fantastic meal from a number of different regions which used to be associated within just 1 region. for example cleveland: multi-cultural in terms of cuisine offerings, ditto for a number of other cities serving excellent & varied foods from all regions around the US. now, one no longer has to be in the NYC, LA, Chicago axis to order "haut" cuisine.

therefore, & maybe unfortunately for others, but for me, i love the fact that when i travel below VA, i come to the land of milk, honey & BBQ which is prepared & served like no where else!!!! so, it may be unfair, the question may be a tired one; but the South & BBQ are so intertwined that to mention food to a Southerner, u invaribly are told where to get the best Q, not given directions to Elizabeth's or Louis's, etc, etc, etc.....

[Jaymes]

hard for a true southerner to acknowledge Texas as part of the South - who started that anyway?  

If you'd spent any time in Texas, you'd know that only half of the state is "true south." East Texas is as "southern" as hush puppies and grits and greens and shoo fly pie and wherever it is that you're from.

"The West" begins exactly halfway between Dallas and Ft. Worth.

Edit: BTW ur stuff s s hrd 2 rd s a Texan @ poker nt.

Edited May 15, 2003 by Jaymes (log)

[baruch]

I WILL TRY TO TALK REAL SLOW AND WRITE REAL CLEAR FOR YOU TEXANS:

east texas, & yes i've been there, is about as southern as south beach; but its ok if you choose to believe otherwise

as to where the "west" begins, let's just assume the next stop after the mississippi river is san francisco!

hopefully, you will have been able to read this

and, as to "by the way your stuff's hard to read as a texan at poker night" presented no problem & i found it to be good shorthand for the mentally unimpaired

[Jaymes]

I WILL TRY TO TALK REAL SLOW AND WRITE REAL CLEAR FOR YOU TEXANS

Thank you.

Ah, the English language. It's a beautiful thing.

[Zeb A]

the good news is that, if you check varmint's bio thread, you will see that he is soon hosting a pig pickin'

Varmint's Pig Party

[Varmint]

If you're interested in a pig pickin', go here: Varmint's Pig Pickin' Thread

[Random Alias]

I WILL TRY TO TALK REAL SLOW AND WRITE REAL CLEAR FOR YOU TEXANS

Thank you.

Ah, the English language. It's a beautiful thing.

There's really no need to thank him.

He's a Gamecock, slow is the only way they can talk.

Which is a good thing, since "Do you want fries with that?" has to be said slowly to be understood over a drive thru speaker.

(don't you just love the SEC?)

[baruch]

hey! if they would put tv screens on the speakers in drive-ins @ bbq places = hog heaven

[Randy!]

Here are some other great places...I currently live in Florida, which has great weather and lousy BBQ (unless you consider the Sonny's chain, which at least beats Wisconsin BBQ)...I lived in Arkansas for a time and there are a couple of "must-visit" places there:

Sims BBQ - In Little Rock - 3 locations. Their sauce is semi-Carolinian (don't I sound smart) - it is vinegar based, but with enough mustard to give it a yellow ting, and is very light. The cool part that makes my mouth water as I write is the addition of cumin and enough sweetener to give it a ying-yang balance. The sauce is thin enough so that you could probably cook with it without burning. They of course do not and have some incredible pork and even better brisket. Ribs/pork/brisket/beans and white bread. Great beans at that.

McClards BBQ in Hot Springs - Quite simply the BBQ mecca in Hot Springs for fifty years. Great pork...the sauce went a little downhill when they started bottling it commercially years ago (now it's a little too vinegary). The ambiance is great - cool luncheonette interior with waitresses who have been there forever. They also have great tamales and make their own french fries. Good beans too.

[Zeb A]

We were in Salisbury, NC for a wedding this weekend, and we had free time Saturday. So, we did a barbecue sampler in nearby Lexington.

Taking the advice of several people, we knew we had to go to the Monk (Lexington #1). We also went to Smokey Joe's and Speedy's.

I first want to say that I ate a barbecue plate w/ hush puppies and slaw at eat place. This made for a good comparison and a grotesquely distended gut by the end. (3 plates in about 1.5 hours is too much.)

This was my 1st exposure to Western style. It wasn't nearly as saucy as I had expected, and I liked it quite a bit. I still think I prefer Eastern Q, but my wife may now lean toward the west. I love the western slaw though. very finally chopped with some sort of spicy tomato sauce--maybe the same stuff in the barbecue. excellent.

The Monk was packed. We had about a 20 minute wait. As advertised, a mix of locals and tourists.

Smokey Joe's was smokey--and I don't mean smokey from the barbecue pit, I mean smokey from the cigarette smokers. While this appeared to be a truly local place, I could not help but find it to be sort of freaky. The kind of place where you feel like you stick out like a sore thumb when you walk in. The waitresses were nice etc., but, as my wife said, "I don't think I'll be back."

Speedy's was more similar to the Monk. Pleasant place to eat. Evidently, their claim to fame is portion size. And, they did not disappoint. Unless you have not eaten for days, I would stay away from the "large" sizes.

Food-wise, I have to confess that I find it hard to notice subtle flavor differences from the meat at one place to the next. Since, Speedy's uses electric cookers and the other two use natural pit cookers, most seem to say that Speedy's meat has a less smokey (and now I mean good smokey) flavor. I really couldn't notice the difference, but the logic behind a preference for non-electrical heat cooking makes some sense I guess. They were all good. The meat at Smokey Joe's was more coarsely cut (and we did not ask for the "coarse cut" that is on the menu), which I don't like as much because the pig parts seem to become identifiable (at least to my imagination).

My wife and I both agreed that the hush puppies at the Monk were the best and the sauce at Speedy's was the best (spicy and sweet and not too runny). The sauce at Smokey Joes was so runny that it kind of made the Q watery. We also thought the slaw at Speedy's was the best.

Bottom line. All were very good. A plate and a sandwich with sweet tea runs about 10 bucks at each place. I would go back to both the Monk and Speedy's in a heartbeat. I wouldn't go back to Smokey Joe's. Not because the food or service weren't good, but simply because it was too smokey and local for someone who is neither smokey nor local.

PS: Although it was recommended, we could not bring ourselves to order the pig skin sandwich that is sold at Speedy's for $2.95. Maybe next time.

[baruch]

hard to picture hushpuppies @ a "real" bbq PLACE, more normally associated with seafood joints; but i guess thats indicative of NC bbq places

[Varmint]

hard to picture hushpuppies @ a "real" bbq PLACE, more normally associated with seafood joints; but i guess thats indicative of NC bbq places   

Indeed, it is.

[kpurvis]

We were in Salisbury, NC for a wedding this weekend, and we had free time Saturday.  So, we did a barbecue sampler in nearby Lexington.

You know, Zeb, I was actually wondering if you were there this weekend. I was almost there - I went up to Elkin for the Yadkin Valley Wine Festival and thought very seriously about jogging over to I-85 so I could hit Honey Monk's on the way home, and wondered if I'd be able to spot you. But after tasting 25 or 30 wines, in the rain, and contemplating the traffic around Lowes Motor Speedway, I thought better of it.

I almost had a culinary fantasy come true, though: When I got to the festival, there was a cooker puffing smoke. I thought, "Barbecue at a wine festival? Ah, could it be?" No, it wasn't -- they were cooking chicken kebabs. But I did get to try the smoked elk and wild boar sausages from Wolf's Lair restaurant. So I got to take a short stroll on the culinary wild side.

[Zeb A]

I thought, "Barbecue at a wine festival? Ah, could it be?" No, it wasn't -- they were cooking chicken kebabs. But I did get to try the smoked elk and wild boar sausages from Wolf's Lair restaurant. So I got to take a short stroll on the culinary wild side.

Sounds like a fun event! And you can't go wrong with sausage.

It was a pretty hectic weekend in Salisbury with all the race traffic, etc.

[Zeb A]

hard to picture hushpuppies @ a "real" bbq PLACE, more normally associated with seafood joints; but i guess thats indicative of NC bbq places   

I've been to quite a few barbecue places in NC, and I would say 95% or more serve hushpuppies.

[baruch]

hard to picture hushpuppies @ a "real" bbq PLACE, more normally associated with seafood joints; but i guess thats indicative of NC bbq places   

I've been to quite a few barbecue places in NC, and I would say 95% or more serve hushpuppies.

then, i guess, 95% of NC bbq "places" are somewhat suspect

[kpurvis]

then, i guess, 95% of NC bbq "places" are somewhat suspect 

Aw, c'mon. Most we get into another of those "barbecue purity" litmus tests? If it's good 'cue to you, it's good 'cue. This is why I dread and avoid barbecue discussions: Because they turn into "my hickory stick is bigger than yours" spats.

You don't like hush puppies? That's fine. But sometimes a hush puppie is just a hush puppie.

[Randy!]

I personally like hushpuppies with my Q...my litmus test is the beans...if you make great Q but you can't make beans...well, then you can't make beans...In Georgia, it's commonplace to serve Brunswick Stew, kind of a leftovers pot with BBQ sauce in it. It reminds me of the couple of times I ate at the (insert drumroll here) Rendevous in Memphis, great dryrub ribs, but beans that were way too VanCampsesque. I remember a very small trailer (literally) that I stopped at in Albany GA one time, incredible pulled pork but the real prize was the beans - white beans with a very light holy trinity sauce (mustard, green pepper, brown sugar, ok so it was a quad-nity), with smoky bits of pork through and through. I bought a quart to take back to the hotel in Tifton and ate the whole thing on the way with a spork....driving. Unfortunately, I've been back through and can't find them anymore.

One more great place in Macon, GA off I-75 if you're coming from Atlanta to visit the Mouse:

Fresh Air BBQ - Very thin vinegar sauce with a tad of sweet (always get the ying wid yor yang) smoky pulled pork...

Also found this BBQ list which has many good joints except for two of the best: Sims and McClards in AR.

Web BBQ Listing

Edited May 19, 2003 by Randy! (log)

[Jaymes]

my litmus test is the beans...

Also found this BBQ list which has many good joints except for two of the best: Sims and McClards in AR.

Web BBQ Listing

Your "litmus test" for who makes great 'cue is the BEANS??

Well, you'd best not come to Texas, Pardner, because in these parts, many of the best 'cue joints don't even SERVE beans. Or any other sides at all! They are old-time meat markets, and smoked meat is what you go for and smoked meat is what you get.

Our "litmus test" for who makes great 'cue is the, uh, 'CUE.

Checked your "BBQ list" - but I find it a little suspect. The only place they mention in the entire state of Texas is County Line!