Kosher wine in EC1?

[Clerkenwellian]

I need to find wine kosher for passover by tomorrow night and I live and work in EC1.

Is this a completely hopeless task?

[Simon Majumdar]

I bought some at Vinopolis once ( long story )

You could try there, only a short hop in a cab across the bridge

S

[vengroff]

I assume you tried the obvious, like the big Oddbins on Farringdon Rd under the bridge. I would expect them to offer a handful of bottles.

[magnolia]

I need to find wine kosher for passover by tomorrow night and I live and work in EC1.

Is this a completely hopeless task?

In a word, probably. But are there any wine shops in or near Hatton Gardens?

Before you start running around, best to call ahead. For example the supermarket just across from Holborn station might have some - (this is not an educated suggestion) - it's either a Sainsbury's or Tesco. I know Selfridges has a kosher section. There's also a kosher restaurant on Wigmore street called Six/13, if you call them they may be able to suggest to you where to go in central London.

Otherwise I fear you'll have to try parts farther North...perhaps the huge Sainsburys at the 02Centre on Finchley Road has some, and definitely the supermarkets around Golders Green will. But I can tell you that the Waitrose at Finchley Road, just at the border of the "MOT belt", doesn't.

Edited April 15, 2003 by magnolia (log)

[macrosan]

Most Waitrose, Tesco and Sainsbury stores have Kosher for Passover sections, and I'm pretty sure they all stock wine. There must be one of those near Hatton Garden !

You can ring Carmel wines at 020 8902 3002 to ask for the nearest stockist of their wines. I'm not sure they'll be open tomorrow morning, but you can try. They will definitely be closed in the afternoon.

[Clerkenwellian]

thank you all for the suggestions: Selfridges came through for me in the end.

[Simon Majumdar]

didn't know they had a branch in EC1

[magnolia]

thank you all for the suggestions: Selfridges came through for me in the end.

So what did you get in the end? I have only had a handful of decent kosher wines in my whole life, two of them last night. I can't understand why so few people bothers, as in the long-term, I don't think it's that much more or expensive, from an infrastructure point of view, than producing organic wine - or certainly biodynamic - wine, and a lot of people seem to be falling over themselves to do this. Plus those who are kosher are a captive audience and therefore probably willing to pay a premium for it as they can't have anything else, whereas there are far fewer people willing to pay big money for organic wine because fewer are obliged to drink it...so organic is in competition with non-organic, while Kosher is not in competition with anything. Discuss.

[sandra]

Here is a list of Kosher Wines from the April BonAppetit:

Mouton Cadet bordeaux

Fortant de France chardonnay

Galil Mountain cab sauvignon

Gan Eden gewurtztraminer

Verbau gerwurtztraminer

Wohlmuth chardonnay

Yarden blanc de blancs

Beckett's Flat 70% cab, 30% shiraz

Hagafen syrah

Herzog cab sauvignon

Don't know which ones would be available in London, but the Mouton Cadets, at least, are almost everywhere....

[Clerkenwellian]

thank you all for the suggestions: Selfridges came through for me in the end.

So what did you get in the end? I have only had a handful of decent kosher wines in my whole life, two of them last night. I can't understand why so few people bothers, as in the long-term, I don't think it's that much more or expensive, from an infrastructure point of view, than producing organic wine - or certainly biodynamic - wine, and a lot of people seem to be falling over themselves to do this. Plus those who are kosher are a captive audience and therefore probably willing to pay a premium for it as they can't have anything else, whereas there are far fewer people willing to pay big money for organic wine because fewer are obliged to drink it...so organic is in competition with non-organic, while Kosher is not in competition with anything. Discuss.

I ended up with a bottle of Yarden Sauvignon Blanc and a Gamla Cabernet Sauvignon, both from the Golan and both best described as unmemorable.

I'm Jewish but, surprisingly given my previous posts about cooking pork belly, don't remotely keep kosher. So I know nothing at all about kosher wine.

That doesn't stop me having three opinions:

most kosher wine is Israeli. Most Israeli wine is rubbish, despite a climate (at least in the Golan) which should well suit it. Don't ask me why. Have seen some kosher Aussie stuff but never tried it.

everything that's kosher is more expensive, due more to the costs of certification than the physical costs of achieving kashrut.

the corollary of your point about kosher wine not having to compete for the custom of kosher wine drinkers is that Orthodox Jews often seem to have no idea how bad most kosher wine is...

[macrosan]

Soryy, Clerky, but I have to disagree with your two of your opinions

Actually, most kosher wine is French, and some of it is quite reasonable wine.

The main reason kosher wine is expensive is the low volume distribution, not in the cost of supervision.

Almost by definition, very orthodox Jews will never have drunk anything but kosher wine, and very little of that (since drinking table wine is not very strong in the Jewish tradition). So I guess there's not much value in pointing out that they don't know how bad it is, since it's not the most surprising news of the century

Incidentally, the best Israeli wines in my experience come from Yarden, and I would describe most of their whites as "drinkable". I'm afraid that's the best you're likely to get for the next few millenia

[Tonyfinch]

I always thought that Kosher wine was that sweet stuff called Palwin's No.1, or Palwin's No.4, and where there was absolutely no difference at all between the numbers that anyone could detect.

Anyway, how the hell can wine be kosher? Or rather what processes are used in grape picking and vinification that can be described as non-kosher? Wine is made from GRAPES, not pork or prawns. Does it have to be made on a certain day of the month or something? I suspect that this is another case of us Jews allowing ourselves to be conned into paying more for an inferior product because some Rabbi said a mumbled prayer over the vineyard. Whyowhyowhy do we continue to put up with it?

Edited April 20, 2003 by Tonyfinch (log)

[Clerkenwellian]

I always thought that Kosher wine was that sweet stuff called Palwin's No.1, or Palwin's No.4, and where there was absolutely no difference at all between the numbers that anyone could detect.

Anyway, how the hell can wine be kosher? Or rather what processes are used in grape picking and vinification that can be described as non-kosher? Wine is made from GRAPES, not pork or prawns. Does it have to be made on a certain day of the month or something? I suspect that this is another case of us Jews allowing ourselves to be conned into paying more for an inferior product because some Rabbi said a mumbled prayer over the vineyard.  Whyowhyowhy do we continue to put up with it?

The sweet stuff with the mysterious numbers is sacramental wine, not table wine. Drink it at your peril. I think part of its uniquely unpleasant taste comes down to it having been boiled, although I don't know if this is due to kashrut laws or some weird custom.

The other requirements I remember is that all the ingredients have to be certified kosher and all those involved in the preparation of the wine (from grape-pickers to bottlers) must observe the sabbath.

(Of course "we" (as in secular Jews) don't put up with rubbish kosher wine at all, we drink the normal stuff)

[macrosan]

I always thought that Kosher wine was that sweet stuff called Palwin's No.1, or Palwin's No.4 ...

I can't believe you really thought that, Tony. Get out a bit more, old chap

Anyway, how the hell can wine be kosher? Or rather what processes are used in grape picking and vinification that can be described as non-kosher? Wine is made from GRAPES, not pork or prawns. Does it have to be made on a certain day of the month or something? I suspect that this is another case of us Jews allowing ourselves to be conned into paying more for an inferior product because some Rabbi said a mumbled prayer over the vineyard.  Whyowhyowhy do we continue to put up with it?

Tsk tsk. Surely youn know that some wine makers have used animal blood, or gelatine, in their wine. No ?

You also know perfectly well that kashrut has nothing whatsoever to do with "a Rabbi saying a mumbled prayer" over any food. It is to do with supervision, ensuring that all the regulations of kashrut are properly observed. There is nothing inherently inferior about kosher food as a result of its kashrut. Also, kosher foods do not necessarily cost more than non-kosher --- go have a look at prices in New York where volumes of usage are high.

Whilst observant Jews will apptreciate your worrying about the prices they pay for kosher food, the good news is that at least you don't have to "put up with it" and no-one wopuld wish you to do so.

[Tonyfinch]

Macro, are we talking about "kosher" wines or "kosher for Passover" wines? Is there a difference? Are Jews allowed to drink any wine outside of Passover? If so why? If not does it mean that all of those who drink non-kosher wines the rest of the year are drinking traif? Please explain .

[macrosan]

All kosher wine is kosher for Passover. That's just because it has no form of leaven in it.

Kosher wine in practice falls into two categories. There is kiddush wine (what Clerkenwellian referred to as sacramental wine) and there is wine wine

Now kiddush wine is your Palwin's No. X type stuff. It's red, it's sweet and it's pretty yucky. For those who want to know, Palwin's No 11 is the best of a pretty bad bunch

The other wine is just regular wine, except that it's supervised to ensure it contains no forbidden ingredients. There are other regulations regarding no work being done on Sabbath, and fields being left fallow every seven years, and various other biblical regulations, which also apply to the manufacturers of all types of kosher food. You will find many well-reputed chateaux in France which produce kosher wine, including Rothschild, and some of them are pretty good. You can get just about any variety of wine in kosher form.

There is one religious regulation which applies uniquely to wine, and that is the option to make the wine mevushal which means "boiled". In practice, this means the wine is heated briefly just enough to make bubbles appear. The reason for this regulation is obscure, and there is not total agreement as to why it exists, nor about whether it is necessary.

Given that these days it is accepted that wine producers no longer use animal blood or gelatin or other "foreign" agents in making their wine, most Jews (apart from the stringently observant) would aver that all wine is "kosher". I think that yeast is used in some wines, so these would still not be "kosher for Passover". As a matter of standard practice, only strictly kosher wine would be used for sacramental purrposes.

Overall, Tony, as far as table wine is concerned, regular wine would be considered as kosher as milk, fruit juice, and so on. Which means that ultra-observant Jews would always insist on supervised kosher products, but the rest of us are quite content with the "real" stuff

[fen]

Hi

Came across this forum whilst doing a google search on Palwin wines (trying to decide on a nice one )

It was mentioned that most wines are fine for general Jewish consumption apart from not having the certification.

You might be interested in the following link:

http://homepage.tinet.ie/~thewub/vegan/wine.html

It lists the vegan wines......ie the ones that will have no animal or dairy products in them. That is about as safe as you can get without going kosher certified. Vegetarian wines will also be OK if you don't mind the idea of battery hen's eggs (blood spots and all) being possibly used somewhere in the process.

Like bread and the dreaded E472e additive, all sorts can be added to wine that is decidedly non-kosher! Gelatine, for instance, and what is the betting it is pork gelatine

Oh, one more link for the curious: http://www.carmel-food.com/kosher.htm

Explains all about what makes kosher wine kosher :)

HTH

Fen

[Carlovski]

Is kosher wine the only sort of Booze an observant Jew can drink then?

Or is there an entire industry of kosher beer, vodka, whisky etc that I am unaware of?

We never covered this in R.E class!