Fish + Cheese

[Elissa]

Keep the grated parm from your fra diavolo if you wish. But can't something be said for anchovies and parmesean? Isn't this match the heart of a Caesar? Are Caesars strictly for tourists? In her Italian Food Elizabeth David writes of Sole with Parmesan, Sogliole alla Parmigiana.

Edited March 27, 2003 by lissome (log)

[Fat Guy]

I like some of the old-style fish-with-cheese dishes like they serve at Tadich in San Francisco or Mary Mahoney's in Biloxi. I don't think it's necessary for every fish dish to conform to modern standards. Shrimp au gratin is good eating; I don't care what anybody says.

[Jon Tseng]

- I guess the logic would be cheese tends to have quite a pronounced flavour, whereas fish does not, so the fish tends to get drowned out.

- The exceptions then would be weak-flavoured cheese with fish (eg ricotta perhaps) or normal-flavoured cheese with strong-flavoured fish.

- Anchovies and parmesan would fall into the latter category, also viz smoked haddock and mornay sauce &tc. Shellfish, too, can probably stand up to cheese better.

cheerio

J

[Robin Meredith]

There's nothing like a week in New Orleans to make you a little more flexible where these rules are concerned. I'm not sure I had a meal that didn't combine cheese and fish in some fashion, and my single favorite dish of the entire trip was a magnificent crawfish and wild mushroom gratin (complete with melted cheeses and breadcrumbs) at Brigtsen's.

On the other hand, I don't think I had a truly great piece of fish or shellfish the whole time I was there (great preparations, just not great raw materials), and that's where the rub comes in for me - if I've got something decent to show off, I don't want cheese anywhere near it - not in the same preparation, probably not even on the same table. There's something about the simple clarity of fresh fish and shellfish that fights with cheese on a very fundamental level - for me, this even extends to other dairy products, many of which have a tendency to mute surrounding flavors (not something you want to do with some pristine scallops or a great piece of wild striped bass).

Bottom line, though - I do think this is more a question of individual taste than basic culinary right and wrong.

[Stephanie]

Mom would add cheese sometimes to dishes using filets (flounder, sole), usually in the form of a cheese sauce. She didn't use anything stronger or more exotic than sharp cheddar. Never saw anything odd about it.

[Wilfrid]

And cheese melted over smoked haddock is comforting. Mild cheese, indeed, and not too much.

Isn't there cheese in coquilles St Jacques?

[Elissa]

also lettuce not forget cream cheese / creme fraiche / chevre with smoked fishies

or the most delishious Indian fish baked in yogurts

How does the treatment of yogurt and cheese compare re: dairy and cooking?

Do the two together ever make you wish you'd eaten something else?

Edited March 28, 2003 by lissome (log)

[EJRothman]

The new Turkish place in my neighborhood (Brooklyn Heights, New York) has a whole trout which is covered in cheese and various spices. I personally have not tried it, but my friend seemed to think it was pretty good.

-Eric

[wingding]

Some mild cheeses or dairy are ok with smoked or salted preserved fish to me-salmon roe with creme fraiche,chopped herring salads.But when we did sole 'bonne femme' in cooking school.I hated the whole idea.Beautiful,fresh fish has a clean flavor that I hate to mess with too much.I eat a lot of fish raw,with a little lemon and salt,and let the flavor just shine through..[but the quality has to be top drawer].

[misstenacity]

I've seen enough Molto Mario to actually raise an eyebrow when I was offered fresh grated parmesan on my cioppino just yesterday at a local Italian restaurant - and a decent one at that.

Aside from the fact that the "no cheese near my fish" thing has been drilled into my brain, is there an actual precedent for it, culinary or historical?

I'd nitpick with the restaurant for the practice, but if I am just being silly and it's an example of Mario's inventiveness with cooking, I'd like to know....

Thank you!

Andrea

in Albuquerque

[Nathan]

lol.

It is true that Italians do not serve cheese with seafood.

However, there is nothing authentic about an "Italian" restaurant serving cioppino.

Cioppino was invented in San Francisco and has no relationship with Italy. Whether they sometimes put cheese on it in SF I do not know....maybe they do.

[Pontormo]

The topic has been discussed in this forum on a number of occasions since the general rule is by no means an absolute one.

Kevin72 mentioned the issue on his year-long cooking blog, probably around December when he was preparing a mult-course seafood feast for Christmas Eve.

Here's a short thread: the biggest lie.

This is a report on a trip that inspires a discussion, so search earlier and later entries, but I am linking you to a key exception that relates to your own experience: Two Weeks....

There is a discussion in one of this year's series devoted to regional dishes: "Cooking & Cuisine of...", but it evades me. One observation is that pasta tends to be served without cheese when it is sauced with seafood. However, there are a few main courses that combine cheese with seafood.

[misstenacity]

The topic has been discussed in this forum on a number of occasions since the general rule is by no means an absolute one. 

Pontormo, thank you so much for your help. I searched the archives for "+batali +fish +cheese" and just couldn't come up with anything. Perhaps the 'batali' part tripped up the results. Then I searched google for the same thing and also turned up not much.

Finally, I thought I'd just start a thread and see what kind of hits I got.... and of course ya'll came through for me.

The Italian restaurant's cioppino was the special of the day, and it was definitely the San Fran style - rich & thick broth with red wine, many kinds of fish but no lobster, unfortunately. It was a good soup, regardless the pedigree.

Andrea

http://tenacity.net

[Nathan]

there is no such thing as "San Francisco-style cioppino"

because there is no other style.

"cioppino" has never been made in Italy.

there is nothing Italian about a purported "Italian" restaurant that serves cioppino. thus, technically speaking, whether they served cheese with it or not, it has no relevance to this forum.

[Nathan]

I should add that someone may well pop up saying that insofar as it is a fish and shellfish based stew it has Italian antecedents.

This is both true and banal. It would be equivalent to calling New England clam chowder "French" because it also has Mediterranean antecedents.

I do understand that there is some controversy over whether cioppino originated first in SF or whether it came from elsewhere in CA.

[Kevin72]

It's a general rule that extends beyond just Mario that Italians (setting aside the relevant cioppino discussion) generally don't put an aged cheese on top of seafood, particularly shellfish dishes. Most especially pastas or their beloved fish soups.

But then there's always the exception: pecorino is often used in stuffing mixtures for calamari and such. Sicily and Puglia seem to flaunt violations to this trend and have a number of exceptions (but again don't do it when pasta or a soup are involved).

Also, you'll occasionally see a fairly mild or fresh cheese paired with stronger seafood to cut the richness of their oily flesh or brighten up the dish.

[francesco]

there is no such thing as "San Francisco-style cioppino"

because there is no other style.

"cioppino" has never been made in Italy.

there is nothing Italian about a purported "Italian" restaurant that serves cioppino.  thus, technically speaking, whether they served cheese with it or not, it has no relevance to this forum.

←

If you go to Liguria you might find in several restaurants a fish soup called Ciuppin. Since much of the Italian immigration in San Francisco is of Ligurian origin, it's fair to say that Cioppino has an Italian antecedent and that it has a deserved place in the North Beach-Italian repertoire. It is inevitable that any fish soup made in a city which gets its fish from the Pacific Ocean will have significant difference from a fish soup with mediterranean fish.

Edited October 12, 2006 by francesco (log)

[Adam Balic]

there is no such thing as "San Francisco-style cioppino"

because there is no other style.

"cioppino" has never been made in Italy.

there is nothing Italian about a purported "Italian" restaurant that serves cioppino.  thus, technically speaking, whether they served cheese with it or not, it has no relevance to this forum.

←

Colman Andrews gives a recipe for il ciuppin, which is ligurian. Can't remember if cheese is served with it.

Cheese and seafood. Mostly not, but sometimes yes. Not all seafood is the same and the same can be said for cheese.

edit. Just read francesco's post . Also, sorry for being banal, will have to watch that.

Edited October 12, 2006 by Adam Balic (log)

[jayt90]

It's 5PM and I have an absloute craving for sole mornay.

There is no sole to be had, but I have a sockeye fillet, sorrel, and enough cream and cheese to make a sauce. Not every seafood dish has to be Italian.

[Nathan]

as I noted above, the fact that there are Italian fish soups is irrelevant.

There is a substantial debate as to whether cioppino was devised by Italian fishermen in San Francisco, or whether it was fishermen of a different background, or whether it was in fact, developed in a different part of San Francisco.

The fact of the matter is, the dish, as we know it, and with the name that we know it by, was developed in California. Further, San Franciscans proudly proclaim that they invented the dish and that it is indigenous to the bay area.

No self-respecting Italian restaurant in NY serves cioppino. Though plenty serve some sort of seafood soup. In my experience, an "Italian" restaurant that serves cioppino is always of the Olive Garden variety.

[russ parsons]

i just did a piece that included some stuff on cioppino. there is also a very good discussion in john thorne's "pot on the fire". basically, i think the idea that there is one official version of the dish is false (perhaps even banal). it is a dish of necessity and so it is adaptable. also, the ligurians were far from the only fishermen on the california coast and even before the invention of fusion, there has always been sharing of culinary ideas in this country. in the old recipes for cioppino, i find red wine and green bell pepper, which sounds to me like there is a strong portuguese influence.

but then, this whole discussion does probably belong more on the california board than the italian.

[Adam Balic]

as I noted above, the fact that there are Italian fish soups is irrelevant.

There is a substantial debate as to whether cioppino was devised by Italian fishermen in San Francisco, or whether it was fishermen of a different background, or whether it was in fact, developed in a different part of San Francisco.

The fact of the matter is, the dish, as we know it, and with the name that we know it by, was developed in California.  Further, San Franciscans proudly proclaim that they invented the dish and that it is indigenous to the bay area. 

No self-respecting Italian restaurant in NY serves cioppino.  Though plenty serve some sort of seafood soup.  In my experience, an "Italian" restaurant that serves cioppino is always of the Olive Garden variety.

←

No just an Italian fish soup (of which there are many), but one in particular with essentially the same name. While not on topic, I think that interest in origins of the dish (linguistic, method or ingredients), is neither irrelevant or banal.

Why would a NY Italian restaurant serve cioppino? It is a regional dish, rather then specifically an ethnic one, and anyway I would imagine that there is quite a bit of variation in American-Italian and Italian-American food also. I would be surprised in the Italian population in the States was derived froma single geographic point and arrived at exactly the same time?

[francesco]

as I noted above, the fact that there are Italian fish soups is irrelevant.

There is a substantial debate as to whether cioppino was devised by Italian fishermen in San Francisco, or whether it was fishermen of a different background, or whether it was in fact, developed in a different part of San Francisco.

The fact of the matter is, the dish, as we know it, and with the name that we know it by, was developed in California.  Further, San Franciscans proudly proclaim that they invented the dish and that it is indigenous to the bay area. 

No self-respecting Italian restaurant in NY serves cioppino.  Though plenty serve some sort of seafood soup.  In my experience, an "Italian" restaurant that serves cioppino is always of the Olive Garden variety.

←

Why would a NY Italian restaurant serve cioppino? It is a regional dish, rather then specifically an ethnic one, and anyway I would imagine that there is quite a bit of variation in American-Italian and Italian-American food also. I would be surprised in the Italian population in the States was derived froma single geographic point and arrived at exactly the same time?

←

Exactly: a NY Italian restaurant would not serve Cioppino in the same way that you wouldn't find Ciuppin in Naples or Palermo. There are quite clear and distinct immigration patterns from Italy to the US: very roughly southern Italians went to the east coast while Ligurians went to the bay area.

[russ parsons]

There are quite clear and distinct immigration patterns from Italy to the US: very roughly southern Italians went to the east coast while Ligurians went to the bay area.

←

it's a little more complex than that. there were also a lot of piedmontese and toscani here, as well as a lot of Istrians, a group that i don't believe was even considered part of italy then. And there is also a fairly substantial southern population among the fishermen in southern california, where swordfish, sardines, squid and tuna are popular.

[docsconz]

There are quite clear and distinct immigration patterns from Italy to the US: very roughly southern Italians went to the east coast while Ligurians went to the bay area.

←

it's a little more complex than that. there were also a lot of piedmontese and toscani here, as well as a lot of Istrians, a group that i don't believe was even considered part of italy then. And there is also a fairly substantial southern population among the fishermen in southern california, where swordfish, sardines, squid and tuna are popular.

←

of course it is more complex than what Francesco said, but he did say "very roughly" and with that caveat, he is not really off the mark.

Funny thing is this thread did not start by searching for the origens of Cioppino, but by positing the question of the origens of the "no cheese with fish" maxim for Italian food and whether there was any validity to it being an Italian maxim or a myth instead.

By my experience growing up in an Italia-American household (2nd generation) that was indeed a general rule. My father, in particular would not toleerate cheese even being offered with seafood pastas. Even so, there were occassional exceptions. Grated pecorino was used in the stuffing for my mother's crab sauce, to this day my favorite dish of all time.

Getting back to Cioppino, it is clearly an Italian-American dish from the San Francisco bay area that used Italian fish stews as inspiriation with adaptations for geography and product availability. Food is an ever evolving tradition. Itis always based on some experience or inspiration even in the most hypermodern and creative of kitchens. Ferran Adria himself has said to me and others that the principle inspirations for his cuisine comes from the Catalan culinary tradition. Banal? Perhaps, but sometimes banality is still worthy of discussion.