Whose Indian Food Really Stands Out?

[Wilfrid]

Just to be clear, I am saying that Tabla is not Indian. Not remotely.

The Bread Bar is something else.

[g.johnson]

I know and agree -- I was responding to soba's post.

[Wilfrid]

Sorry. We should have a general discussion about Indian restaurants in New York, or maybe we have already...

[SobaAddict70]

I disagree that TBB is not Indian. There some exotic touches, but it serves tandoori shrimp, chicken tikka masala (not authentic, I know, but typical of Western Indian restaurants) and nan.

Um, the audience that the kitchen is catering to is different, from say, an audience that an Indian restaurant is catering to -- like for example, any of the Indian palaces on East 6th Street or those in Murray Hill or in Queens, or even Diwan.

If I wanted to go have Indian food, either authentic Indian food, mediocre Indian food or even poor renditions of Indian food, TBB would be the last place I'd have in mind. If I, or someone else, say an Indian food newbie, wanted Indian food, TBB would be far far down on whatever short or long list there was. At least, I hope so. But this is e-gullet, where subjective preference reigns supreme.

The peanut gallery has spoken.

Soba

[Steve Plotnicki]

Um, the audience that the kitchen is catering to is different, from say, an audience that an Indian restaurant is catering to -- like for example, any of the Indian palaces on East 6th Street or those in Murray Hill or in Queens, or even Diwan.

Do you mean that the Indian diners at Tabla don't eat "real" Indian food too?

All I know is that the seven people at Tabla would call their meal Indian. Saying that Tabla isn't an Indian restaurant is like saying that Nobu isn't Japanese, or that Patria isn't Latin.

I

[SobaAddict70]

It might be Indian to them, but it's definitely not Indian to the rest of us.

Indian in concept, French in execution is a more accurate assessment.

Why we are comparing a Seville orange to a Granny Smith apple is beyond my comprehension.

Soba

[Stone]

I disagree that TBB is not Indian. There some exotic touches, but it serves tandoori shrimp, chicken tikka masala (not authentic, I know, but typical of Western Indian restaurants) and nan.

Um, the audience that the kitchen is catering to is different, from say, an audience that an Indian restaurant is catering to -- like for example, any of the Indian palaces on East 6th Street or those in Murray Hill or in Queens, or even Diwan.

What's your basis for this statement, other than your own opinion? The audience at Tabla is probably a more "upscale" crowd. But other than the obvious financial and atmospheric differences, why do you assume that the restaurants are catering to different crowds based on a desire for "Indian" food. Don't you think it's possible (probable) that all the Upper East Side, Francophile, Haut Cuisine loving people know so little about Indian food and are so scared of venturing onto 6th Street that their choice for Indian food is going to be the heavily publicized, Danny-Meyer-safe Tabla? (Remember, we're not discussing whether people are wrong for thinking that Tabla offers "real Indian food", just testing Plotz's theory/assumption/presumption that Tabla is within the Indian food market.)

Edited March 18, 2003 by Stone (log)

[Steve Plotnicki]

I think they cater to the same crowds. The people at Tabla on the night when I was there could have easily been at Tamarind or Diwan.

Why we are comparing a Seville orange to a Granny Smith apple is beyond my comprehension.

Because they are both fruits. Except this is more like comparing a Granny Smith with a McIntosh.

[Bux]

I think they cater to the same crowds. The people at Tabla on the night when I was there could have easily been at Tamarind or Diwan.

I'm always fascinated at how some people can tell things about others just from a casual observance across a dining room. The implication of this statement is that many, if not most of the diners at Tabla could not tell the difference between the food at Diwan, Tabla or Tamarind. I wonder if that's telling of the food served or an indictment of Manhattan diners.

[La Niña]

Um, the audience that the kitchen is catering to is different, from say, an audience that an Indian restaurant is catering to -- like for example, any of the Indian palaces on East 6th Street or those in Murray Hill or in Queens, or even Diwan.

Do you mean that the Indian diners at Tabla don't eat "real" Indian food too?

All I know is that the seven people at Tabla would call their meal Indian. Saying that Tabla isn't an Indian restaurant is like saying that Nobu isn't Japanese, or that Patria isn't Latin.

I

Danny Meyer: "Tabla is a very American restaurant. We're using American ingredients, and Western culinary technique, but we're seasoning with Indian spices."

Also found:

"Cardoz emphasizes that rather than experimenting with Indian food, he is embellishing American and French dishes with Indian spices. Tabla certainly has echoes of India in its food, with its Indian seasonings, its bread bar and tandoori ovens. The desserts too are not Indian, but have a whiff of Indian spices."

Edited March 18, 2003 by La Niña (log)

[SobaAddict70]

I disagree that TBB is not Indian. There some exotic touches, but it serves tandoori shrimp, chicken tikka masala (not authentic, I know, but typical of Western Indian restaurants) and nan.

Um, the audience that the kitchen is catering to is different, from say, an audience that an Indian restaurant is catering to -- like for example, any of the Indian palaces on East 6th Street or those in Murray Hill or in Queens, or even Diwan.

What's your basis for this statement, other than your own opinion? The audience at Tabla is probably a more "upscale" crowd. But other than the obvious financial and atmospheric differences, why do you assume that the restaurants are catering to different crowds based on a desire for "Indian" food. Don't you think it's possible (probable) that all the Upper East Side, Francophile, Haut Cuisine loving people know so little about Indian food and are so scared of venturing onto 6th Street that their choice for Indian food is going to be the heavily publicized, Danny-Meyer-safe Tabla? (Remember, we're not discussing whether people are wrong for thinking that Tabla offers "real Indian food", just testing Plotz's theory/assumption/presumption that Tabla is within the Indian food market.)

Well, to answer your query, I point to Nina's statement that Tabla is basically an Indian conceptualized restaurant, not a real Indian restaurant. Therefore, people come to the restaurant with an expectation that is probably outside the parameters that would be set if Tabla were a real Indian restaurant. Tabla offers Indian fusion, but its not really Indian. It's not even Indian Food 101 for Indian food newbies. A person who dines at Tabla may come away with the perception that all Indian food should be judged by what s/he had at the restaurant, and we all know that's as far from the truth as Granny Smiths are to Seville oranges (or Yellow Deliciouses, if you like).

Think about it.

The restaurant offers a safe, familiar environment to people who might be in unfamiliar territory. They're at a Danny Meyer restaurant, the chef is well-known; they know they'll be in good hands even if the concept is strange. I mean, who ever heard of wild mushroom soup with tamarind, until Ruth Reichl reviewed the establishment and gave it three stars? At the time, the IDEA of Tabla was avant-garde; it was cutting edge. The audience expects innovative food with an Indian twist. They're not expecting meats and vegetables cooked in an Indian manner (with ghee, a chaunk, with artisanal masala, with dosas and iddlys, etc.)

Soba

[anil]

Danny Meyer:  "Tabla is a very American restaurant. We're using American ingredients, and Western culinary technique, but we're seasoning with Indian spices."

Also found:

"Cardoz emphasizes that rather than experimenting with Indian food, he is embellishing American and French dishes with Indian spices. Tabla certainly has echoes of India in its food, with its Indian seasonings, its bread bar and tandoori ovens. The desserts too are not Indian, but have a whiff of Indian spices."

What do you mean it's not indian ? So what if the owner and the chef say so !!! They are wrong !!! 199 of the 200 folks have triple-des IRC'd me, and half of them, who were indians, and ABCDs no less !!! and 80% of them drive taxis (they should know good indian food by smelling the spices ) and they say the Chef and owner are plain wrong

[anil]

......not authentic, I know, but typical of Western Indian restaurants.........

GJ: I'm not pulling your chain nor nitpicking but I wanted to know what you meant by western indian ?

To me, the term -- Western Indian means from the state Maharastra (where I grew up) or Gujurat and to some extent Goa.

West Indian, to me ofcourse means Jamaica or Barbados &Trinidad (home to Cricket World cup 2007)

[Steve Plotnicki]

Well, to answer your query, I point to Nina's statement that Tabla is basically an Indian conceptualized restaurant, not a real Indian restaurant.

Soba - You miss the point. Nobody cares that Diwan is a real Indian restaurant and Tabla isn't. You are imposing a level of specificity that is outside of the context of comparison. Let me try it again;

1. Seven people at The Bread Bar at Tabla, six of whom were at the Diwan banquet

2. All six people agreed they enjoyed their meal at Tabla more then Diwan

3. Fat Guy, you and Anil said you can't compare them because one is a real Indian restaurant and one is a pretender

I say that response is a non-sequitor

Nobody compared the two on authenticity. We compared them based on the level of success each achieved regarding what they set out to do and how far they took their concepts. The most prevalent statement being, the tastes were bright at Tabla and muddied at Diwan. I attributed that to overspicing.

None of this has anything to do with authenticity. Just how good a job they did at both places. Now if you do not think Tabla is any good because it isn't authentic, that is okay. But I don't see how those statements reconcile,. Saying it isn't authentic, and saying it isn't any good because it isn't authentic are circular. And the reason you are caught up in that circular argument is is because our original statement did not revolve around authenticity but performance. But nobody wants to discuss the performance because it seems that being authentic gives you a pass on performance. It's kind of like why discuss how well an authentic Indian restaurant performs in relation to Tabla because Tabla is disqualified based on grounds of lack of authenticity before you ever compare them.

Edited March 18, 2003 by Steve Plotnicki (log)

[g.johnson]

......not authentic, I know, but typical of Western Indian restaurants.........

GJ: I'm not pulling your chain nor nitpicking but I wanted to know what you meant by western indian ?

Sorry, my ambiguity. I meant Indian restaurants in the west, specifically the US and UK.

[Bux]

Soba - You miss the point. Nobody cares that Diwan is a real Indian restaurant and Tabla isn't. You are imposing a level of specificity that is outside of the context of comparison.

Nobody cares? Not one single solitary person? It may be outside the context of a comparison you care to make perhaps, but certainly within many contexts. It would seem to even the most casual reader her that you are imposing a level of specificity that is outside that which most members see as categories within which comparisons may be made.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Bux - No the seven people who ate there do not care. When we enjoyed our meal, it had nothing to do with authenticity.

[Wilfrid]

If people can't trouble to distinguish between Tabla and the Bread Bar at Tabla, this thread will continue to be incomprehensible.

[Toby]

Another point that has seemed to lead this thread astray is that the restaurant being discussed was the Bread Bar at Tabla, which is more decidedly Indian than Tabla (the restaurant upstairs), so there was a point to the initial comparison.

And if you look through Indian cookbooks or google some of the menu items at the Bread Bar, you'll find lots of regional Indian recipes with ingredients and techniques similar to the dishes served at the Bread Bar (e.g., lotus root curry with greens -- lots of recipes from both Kashmir and South India/Sri Lanka).

That said, the food at Tabla Bread Bar was just tastier. Aside from spicing, the food was lighter and less doughy.

[La Niña]

Yes, the food at Bread Bar was more enjoyable than the food at Diwan.

[g.johnson]

Wot Wilf and Toby said.

[bpearis]

Here's a somewhat dated menu for the BREAD BAR at Tabla. Decide for yourselves whether it seems Indian or not.

Personally, the Bread Bar is one of my favorite places to eat in NYC -- Indian, American or otherwise.

Edited March 18, 2003 by bpearis (log)

[Stone]

Soba - You miss the point. Nobody cares that Diwan is a real Indian restaurant and Tabla isn't. You are imposing a level of specificity that is outside of the context of comparison.

Nobody cares? Not one single solitary person? It may be outside the context of a comparison you care to make perhaps, but certainly within many contexts. It would seem to even the most casual reader her that you are imposing a level of specificity that is outside that which most members see as categories within which comparisons may be made.

Bux -- "Nobody cares" means that nobody in the discussion that Plotz, FG (I think) and I were having on this thread cares. We were having a discussion on whether Plotz, et al., fairly compared the two restaurants or whether he (they) were applying a biased standard.

We were not discussing whether Tabla served Indian food, yet for some reason everyone else insists on telling us that we were and then telling us that Tabla is not serving Indian food and anyone who thinks it is is wrong. Many people may care about that issue. But that wasn't the subject matter of the earlier discussion, which has generated all this rigamarole. (At least it wasn't what I was discussing. Perhaps I shouldn't speak for the others. )

Edited March 18, 2003 by Stone (log)

[Wilfrid]

I think the confusion has been identified. Plotz was asserting that Tabla and Diwan are in the same dining "segment", which they're not. It's a stretch to make meaningful comparisons between Tabla's cuisine and traditional Indian food. However, those of us who remember as far back as page one think Plotz might mean the Bread Bar at Tabla, which is somewhat different. If everyone would be careful to say which they mean, we may still be able to pull out of the rut.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Wilfrid - I think you are wrong. They are in the same dining segment, costing about the same for a meal. Whether you want traditional Indian, or Indian influenced American food, that is just a choice in the segment.