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R Washburn

Need help with fillings for chocolates

45 posts in this topic

When you say you used puree but that it has no intensity of flavor - exactly what puree are you using? Passionfruit puree is incredibly intense.

Are you by any chance talking about those fruit smoothie mixes the Smoothie pack 100% fresh crushed fruit smoothie Passion fruit? If that is what you are using, that tastes primarily of bananas. Nice for something, but not if you are looking for a strong passion fruit flavor. Look for the passionfruit concentrate in a glass bottle (about 1 pint I think) use it straight in your ganache.

As for the invert sugar - don't get yourself wrapped around the axel. The corn syrup will be just fine - really!

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For a non-professional substituting corn syrup or glucose is fine at the stage you are at Robert. Don't get too far beyond your ability too quickly. You haven't even molded a chocolate yet in a real polycarbonate mold but you will soon. I'd get used to tempering and molding with at least 2 pounds, not 5 ounces, and I'd suggest you use a dark chocolate couverture to mold with, at least as you begin experimenting with molds. There is alot that can go wrong and so much that isn't straightforward. Don't try to run before you can crawl. There is so much you have to digest, to absorb about "making chocolate" and there's just no shortcut. It's nice to have confidence, as you seem to, but there's alot more to this than recipes.

A few general thoughts--all invert sugar is not necessarily Trimolene. There are two different kinds of inverted sugar--a thick whitish sticky paste and a more liquidy, yellowish sticky syrupy paste. The Dairyland product is the latter. I've used it and it will work in sorbet recipes and in ganaches but not exactly as Trimolene would in a professional recipe which was based on Trimolene. This is what I mean about getting too far ahead--I don't even know yet if you can make a smooth ganache technique-wise without breaking or if you understand why it might break.

The chocolate you use matters--each chocolate has a different fat/sugar ratio which affects the proportions of the other ingredients--so a Passionfruit ganache with Manjari and one with E. Guittard will (probably) need all different ratios of ingredients. Usually chocolatiers tailor their ganaches to specifc chocolates--they figure out just the right % of butter, invert sugar, etc. to the cocoa percentage of specific chocolates. That passionfruit ganache chefette gave you I believe was designed for a 45% milk chocolate from Cluizel and Ravifruit passionfruit puree.

Each one of the issues you raise indirectly cannot be answered quickly or definitively with a recipe or the right ingredient--each is an in-depth subject and could really be an individual thread--like making fruit ganaches, tempering techniques, dipping and molding, etc. Make the same recipe with Boiron passionfruit and it will come out differently than if you used Ravifruit or Perfectpuree or the Latin market concentrate. (I like the flash-frozen French ones best.) The key is knowing why they turn out differently and learning how to make adjustments. You have to do ALOT of this to learn. They all have different consistencies, sugar content and water content. Also realize a ganache--which necessarily has a high percentage of chocolate--will usually not have such an intense fruit flavor. It's still chocolate and something else. And chocolates made in the French style prize subtlety of flavor, not intensity. This is why chocolatiers spend their whole lives specializing in chocolateit is that vast, that specialized and yes, that difficult. You have to have the right personality for it.

On cooking down fruit flavors, that (usually) destroys flavor and reduces the sparkle or brightness whereas reducing other things concentrates and improves flavor. You'll have to experiment to see which makes the most sense for what you're trying to do.

There are some very good "professional" chocolate filling recipes and an explanation of making ganaches and chocolate candies (which is only somewhat over-complicated) in the Frederic Bau book. If you're interested in pursuing this, that book would be a really good starting point.


Steve Klc

Pastry chef-Restaurant Consultant

Oyamel : Zaytinya : Cafe Atlantico : Jaleo

chef@pastryarts.com

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here are some very good "professional" chocolate filling recipes and an explanation of making ganaches and chocolate candies (which is only somewhat over-complicated) in the Frederic Bau book. If you're interested in pursuing this, that book would be a really good starting point.

Is this the book to get? It looks like there is only a section on chocolate making and the book costs $120. I will get it though if it is the best resource. They recommended another book at JB Prince (I will post it when I check my notes at home. The downside of the other book was that the recipes all use professional, European sourced ingredients.

I made some chocolates last night in the "Seafruits" mold from Beryl's. The two piece mold makes for some really beautiful shells and seacreatures. I used Callebaut white chocolate with a Scharfenberger (62% Cocoa) chocolate ganache for a filling. I infused the cream with peppermint tea and added some creme de menthe and crushed peppermint candy for added flavor. The chocolates came out nearly perfect, and are very tasty. I did have some thin spots in the white chocolate where you can see the dark filling, but that is okay with me.

I am going to try making some flavored fondants next, for filling. One thing I am going to try is evaporating some Alize for an Alize fondant filling.

Thanks for the advice everyone,

Robert

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here are some very good "professional" chocolate filling recipes and an explanation of making ganaches and chocolate candies (which is only somewhat over-complicated) in the Frederic Bau book. If you're interested in pursuing this, that book would be a really good starting point.

Is this the book to get? It looks like there is only a section on chocolate making and the book costs $120. I will get it though if it is the best resource. They recommended another book at JB Prince (I will post it when I check my notes at home. The downside of the other book was that the recipes all use professional, European sourced ingredients.

The Bau book is excellent, but the section on chocolates - while impressive - is quite small. I'm not sure it's worth the expense if you only want info on chocolate work. If it were me, I would look into these books from L'Ecole Lenotre:

http://www.pastrychef.com/htmlpages/produc...otre_books.html

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I can also second Scot's recommendation as an alternative Robert--both Lenotre volumes (each $60 or so?) are worth adding to the library. Especially if you think this won't be a passing obsession. I like, and have used, their whole series. It's the closest thing we have to a modern version of the (still really good) Bilheux & Escoffier "Professional French Pastry Series."

And with Bau--I'm not sure if your interests lie elsewhere--but this book has been incredibly influential among French and French-leaning pastry chefs working in the US. You see his influence everywhere.


Steve Klc

Pastry chef-Restaurant Consultant

Oyamel : Zaytinya : Cafe Atlantico : Jaleo

chef@pastryarts.com

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If I can just add a chocolate novice's perspective. The reason why you may have had thin spots in your white chocolate is that now that you've worked with dark or milk chocolate you may anticipate that setting time whereas white chocolate sets more slowly. I think a solution would simply to be to let it set a bit longer than you've become used to.

And pros, please help me out here because I've forgetten and my notes are at school, when you do marbling I think it's dark/milk then white? So you get a cleaner look and not a muddy looking marble. I have not done marbling yet which is why I don't remember - no physical memory yet - but did see the two demo'ed and there was a significant difference.

Thanks.

Er, I mean chefs, could you please help. Sorry. Thanks. :unsure:


Edited by loufood (log)

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Lou--in polycarbonate molds I always do dark first then white--the theory being white--which tempers and works at a lower temperature than dark--will not pull the dark out of temper. The reverse--white in first then dark second--might pull the white out of temper because it, the dark, tempers and works at a higher temperature. But I've seen it done white down first by some and it turned out just fine, nice and shiny. I just don't do it that way.

Marbling on plastic sheets for cutouts or poured marbling--as in pouring out a half inch piece for a base--is slightly different and a more advanced technique. You have to do it to see what I mean. Some people put all the chocolates in a bowl, swirl a bit and dump out; some pipe and stripe and pour colors separately and then spatula a bit. Really a matter of effect and personal style. I actually never use tempered milk for anything--it's not as strongly set as white or dark; just mix your tempered white and dark together quickly and you'll get the milk color. That way you only need to temper and hold two chocolates--white and dark--and not three.


Steve Klc

Pastry chef-Restaurant Consultant

Oyamel : Zaytinya : Cafe Atlantico : Jaleo

chef@pastryarts.com

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...in polycarbonate molds I always do dark first then white--the theory being white--which tempers and works at a lower temperature than dark--will not pull the dark out of temper.  The reverse--white in first then dark second--might pull the white out of temper because it, the dark, tempers and works at a higher temperature.  But I've seen it done white down first by some and it turned out just fine, nice and shiny...

That's great advice, Steve.

Hey Lou, being in France, have you been exposed to any PCB Creation products? They manufacture a small line of colored cocoa butters that are very easy to use, with zero waste, and when 'marbled' into a chocolate mold, maintain a beautiful sheen and a translucent effect when used subtly with say, white and dark chocolates.


Michael Laiskonis

Pastry Chef

New York

www.michael-laiskonis.com

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Michael,

can you actually click on to products to see what they are?

I went to the site and only got the pictures.

I'm intrigued by the 'cooling spray'...

also, the cocoa butters?


2317/5000

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Michael or Steve,

is there a short course at a school you would recommend for chocolate work?

I never really have worked with tempered choc and things of that nature.

Also, PVC. You can get that at an art store, correct?


2317/5000

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My top 3: FPS (Jacquy Pfeiffer) in Chicago, The Chocolate Loft (Drew Shotts) in NYC, Ewald Notter's school in Gaithersburg, MD.


Steve Klc

Pastry chef-Restaurant Consultant

Oyamel : Zaytinya : Cafe Atlantico : Jaleo

chef@pastryarts.com

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My top 3: FPS (Jacquy Pfeiffer) in Chicago, The Chocolate Loft (Drew Shotts) in NYC, Ewald Notter's school in Gaithersburg, MD.

Ditto.

I would look, in particular, for any classes taught by Norman Love. His generosity and passion for chocolate runs deep, and he can be just plain exciting to be around. Though you might make some cheesy showpieces (the techniques used, admittedly, are the basic building blocks of more complex artistic showpieces), his coverage of ganaches, candies, and garnishes can be very useful.

As for PCB, the website is useful as an introduction, but you don't really get a sense for their products until you have a catalog in your hands. Try to navigate your way to the catalog request form. It's free. They release a new one twice a year, in the spring and fall. I think they now even publish an English edition. There is a lot to sift through, but you'll find the cocoa butters, tons of chablons, the very cool textured acetates, and though I don't really use transfer sheets, their designs are the most inventive out there. Several MOFs, and even Jacquy Pfeifer and Sebastien Canone, consult on new products for them. However conservative this group may be, they are forcing a lot of the other companies to play catch-up.

I'm not sure how much distribution they have in the US now, but European Imports in Chicago carries the cocoa butters, some of the transfer sheets, guitar sheets, and edible lustre dusts- last time I checked.

PVC... do you mean the plastic tubing- Poly(vinyl chloride)- used in plumbing? Or do you mean acetate, or plastic sheeting? PVC, available at hardware stores, comes in a multitude of sizes and is easily cut down into molds. The acetate products I use most are 2 to 2 1/2" wide rolls (firm, yet easy to manipulate) and the PCB guitar sheets I mentioned above, which I use for many purposes, not just chocolate work. I don't know what might be available in art supply stores, but as always, make sure what you are using is food-safe.

Cold spray, keyboard cleaner, chewing gum remover... it's all the same... well, yes and no. There are some that are safe to ingest and others that contain chemicals you wouldn't want to. The spray is used in assembling and affixing chocolate showpieces. Steve is no doubt the authority on this.


Edited by Michael Laiskonis (log)

Michael Laiskonis

Pastry Chef

New York

www.michael-laiskonis.com

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The French Pastry School has several "Guest Chef" classes on chocolate techniques:

May 6-8

Producing Belgian Chocolate Candies - Jean Pierre Wybauw, Master Chocolatier

Jean Pierre Wybauw will define the sophisticated science behind handling chocolate products. Students will create extensive hand-made and machine enrobed chocolates candies under Jean Pierre's close supervision. $720

August 5-7

Old and New World Sugar Confectionaries - Sebastien Canonne

Sebastien Canonne will take our students back to their childhoods with his extensive selection of sugar confections and candies. Nougats, caramels, pate de fruit, hard candies, marshmallows, lollipops and berlingots will be taught in this course. Students will learn about and make elaborate chocolates, chocolate candies and confectioneries, such as fruit paste, guimauve, praline, caramels, truffles, nougats, gummies and much more. This class is based on using quick and efficient methods of production and demonstrates how to translate these techniques into increased sales. $720

August 19-21

Chocolate Centerpieces and Sculptures - Norman Love

Students will create whimsical and architectural chocolate centerpieces using the latest chocolate and cocoa butter techniques. These sculptures can be used as room amenities or for buffet showpieces. $720

More info here: http://www.frenchpastryschool.com

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My top 3: FPS (Jacquy Pfeiffer) in Chicago, The Chocolate Loft (Drew Shotts) in NYC, Ewald Notter's school in Gaithersburg, MD.

Ditto.

I would look, in particular, for any classes taught by Norman Love. His generosity and passion for chocolate runs deep, and he can be just plain exciting to be around. Though you might make some cheesy showpieces (the techniques used, admittedly, are the basic building blocks of more complex artistic showpieces), his coverage of ganaches, candies, and garnishes can be very useful.

As for PCB, the website is useful as an introduction, but you don't really get a sense for their products until you have a catalog in your hands. Try to navigate your way to the catalog request form. It's free. They release a new one twice a year, in the spring and fall. I think they now even publish an English edition. There is a lot to sift through, but you'll find the cocoa butters, tons of chablons, the very cool textured acetates, and though I don't really use transfer sheets, their designs are the most inventive out there. Several MOFs, and even Jacquy Pfeifer and Sebastien Canone, consult on new products for them. However conservative this group may be, they are forcing a lot of the other companies to play catch-up.

I'm not sure how much distribution they have in the US now, but European Imports in Chicago carries the cocoa butters, some of the transfer sheets, guitar sheets, and edible lustre dusts- last time I checked.

PVC... do you mean the plastic tubing- Poly(vinyl chloride)- used in plumbing? Or do you mean acetate, or plastic sheeting? PVC, available at hardware stores, comes in a multitude of sizes and is easily cut down into molds. The acetate products I use most are 2 to 2 1/2" wide rolls (firm, yet easy to manipulate) and the PCB guitar sheets I mentioned above, which I use for many purposes, not just chocolate work. I don't know what might be available in art supply stores, but as always, make sure what you are using is food-safe.

Cold spray, keyboard cleaner, chewing gum remover... it's all the same... well, yes and no. There are some that are safe to ingest and others that contain chemicals you wouldn't want to. The spray is used in assembling and affixing chocolate showpieces. Steve is no doubt the authority on this.

Sorry, I did mean the acetate sheets, to spread tempered choc on.

Thank you!

And I thank everyone for the suggestions. Much appreciated!

Edit: Fixed quote codes. ML


Edited by Michael Laiskonis (log)

2317/5000

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Steve, thanks so much. Very interesting about mixing the white and the dark rather than using the milk. Is this common practice? Or just something you developed? Is there much of a taste/texture difference? When do you use milk chocolate then?

And Michael I have not used any PCB products yet. Neither in school or out. Though we may in school next session in superior when concentration is more on fine chocolate work, sugar, presentation, etc.

We were not even allowed to use vanilla beans in basic - for which I really don't blame them.

I will ask one of my chefs whose currently prepping for the MOF patissier competition - as opposed to chocolate - next month.

Thanks again for expanding my world.

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The mixing white and dark thing I learned from Kurt Walrath, who when he was at the Rainbow Room was perhaps the best non-French pastry chef working in the US. He's now an amazing glass artist in Rhode Island. This is just for decor Lou--for showpiece work--so taste isn't a factor. I'd still temper and mold with real milk chocolate for bon bons.

Also, for decor work milk chocolate is not strong--not anywhere near as strong as white or dark. Hence, by combining white and dark you not only get the milk color but increased strength. Plus the time savings of not having to temper 3 chocolates.

PS--I think it's really cool you are starting to get exposed to this side of the business and that you have an opportunity to work closely with a MOF candidate. Please continue to file reports of your progress and his progress.


Steve Klc

Pastry chef-Restaurant Consultant

Oyamel : Zaytinya : Cafe Atlantico : Jaleo

chef@pastryarts.com

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Also, for decor work milk chocolate is not strong--not anywhere near as strong as white or dark.  Hence, by combining white and dark you not only get the milk color but increased strength.  Plus the time savings of not having to temper 3 chocolates.

Steve,

Would you employ this technique in judged competition, or just in, say, a piece purely for table decor? Would judges take away points, or is it an understood, standard practice?

What other "trucs" have you learned in competition that have also enhanced your everyday chocolate work? For instance, when making molded chocolate candies, conventional wisdom holds that the ganache-filled molds should stand for 12-24 hours before sealing. When doing these in competition, time is most certainly a factor...


Michael Laiskonis

Pastry Chef

New York

www.michael-laiskonis.com

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that the ganache-filled molds should stand for 12-24 hours before sealing. When doing these in competition, time is most certainly a factor...

Any other important "trucs" for us novices?

Also, what are the basic guidelines for liquer flavored fondant? I made some "strong" fondant (118 C), and I would like to flavor it for fillings.

Thanks,

Robert

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Found the Jacques Torres Alize heart recipe:

Hearts of Passion

2 pounds milk chocolate, tempered

1/4 cup heavy cream

1 tablespoon corn syrup

1 cup fresh passion fruit juice

18 ounces milk chocolate, chopped

5 tablespoons passion fruit liqueur (reccomended: Alize)

2 tablespoons butter

Special Equipment, see source link for information:

Heart-shaped molds

Here's the link to the complete recipe, with alot of good instructional tips:

http://www.foodnetwork.com/foodtv/recipe/0...5,20809,00.html

Here's the basic process in my words:

Ladle tempered chocolate into molds, pour chocolate out, invert on cooling rack a few minutes, and then clean top of mold with spatula, to remove excess chocolate.

Combine cream, corn syrup and passionfruit juice in pan and scald mixture. Pour the hot cream mixture over the chopped chocolate and blend until smooth. Add Alize and butter and blend until smooth. Allow the ganache to cool to 85 degrees F. Place the mixture in a piping bag and pipe it into the chocolate filled molds. Let set overnight.

Seal bottoms with milk chocolate and allow to set. Slightly twist molds to free chocolates and then rap on bench to remove them.

Yield: several dozen hearts.

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Thanks Steve. And I have the same questions as Michael.

And as for my chef, he's in the homestretch. The competition's 2 weeks away and he's locked away in the private pastry chefs' kitchen almost exclusively now. He emerges occasionally to oversee the Superior Patisserie students. I will talk to him more after. And thank you for first informing me as to what an MOF is - that seems a lifetime ago. It led me to research the title and has allowed me to somewhat intelligently discuss it with my chef - and granted me a bit more of his confidence. He was surprised that I even knew what it was. Again thanks to you.

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