Is most American/European/Indian/Middle Eastern food really African/East Asian?

[shawarma_prince]

American-

Pizza-Chinese

Pasta-Chinese

Hamburger-Mongol

BBQ-African American mainly, wouldn't exist otherwise

Fried chicken-African American

Mac and Cheese -African American

Pecan Pie-African American

Tex-Mex/Mexican-Afro-Latino

 

Middle Eastern-

Kebab-Central Asian TUrkic

Kaymak-Central Asian Turkic

Baklava-Central Asian Turkic

shishbarak-Central Asian turkic

 

South Asian-

Biryani/Plov-Central Asian TUrkic (even rice in Asia is due to Chinese migration to India)

Samosa/Sambusa-Central Asian Turkic

aushak-central asian turkic

naan-central asian turkic

Kerela Mutton/Pork Fry-Malaysian/SE Asian

 

How do people get the origins so wrong?

[shawarma_prince]

Heck even yogurt is Central Asian Turkish.

[liuzhou]

What makes you think pizza is Chinese? Or American, for that matter? And Italian pasta rose separately from noodles in China and certainly isn't American. Things get invented more than once.

 

BBQ is universal! It existed centuries before there were African Americans.

Many of your other assertions are highly questionable, too.

Edited April 10, 2020 by liuzhou (log)

[gfweb]

The logic apparently at work here is a lot like some David Attenborough show that "proves" that the modern railway gauge is derived from Roman Chariot wheels.

 

 

[Alex]

1 hour ago, shawarma_prince said:

American-

Pizza-Chinese

Pasta-Chinese

Hamburger-Mongol

BBQ-African American mainly, wouldn't exist otherwise

Fried chicken-African American

Mac and Cheese -African American

Pecan Pie-African American

Tex-Mex/Mexican-Afro-Latino

 

Middle Eastern-

Kebab-Central Asian TUrkic

Kaymak-Central Asian Turkic

Baklava-Central Asian Turkic

shishbarak-Central Asian turkic

 

South Asian-

Biryani/Plov-Central Asian TUrkic (even rice in Asia is due to Chinese migration to India)

Samosa/Sambusa-Central Asian Turkic

aushak-central asian turkic

naan-central asian turkic

Kerela Mutton/Pork Fry-Malaysian/SE Asian

 

How do people get the origins so wrong?

 

This would be a more interesting and useful post if you explained and, preferably, documented your assertions. Preferably not all at once, though.

[Steve R.]

3 hours ago, liuzhou said:

...Things get invented more than once.

 

My favorite quote (well, for today, anyway).

 

Yes, I'll grant that if you call it a "kebab", then you can trace it to Central Asia.  At least you can trace the name there.  Otherwise, I'd guess that putting meat cooked over an open fire on a skewer of some sort might have occurred to other people in other lands.  The relevance of this escapes me, even though I seem to have a lot of spare time to ponder things.

[IowaDee]

During a spell of having too much time on my hands, I started a list of what every country used as a wrap.  Tortillas, won ton wrappers and the like.  They have been reinvented more times than I could list.  No way could anyone trace the first person or nation to use them in any form.  It made the afternoon go quickly though.

[Hassouni]

8 hours ago, shawarma_prince said:

American-

Pizza-Chinese

what?

Pasta-Chinese

most likely invented independently several times around the world

Hamburger-Mongol

what?

BBQ-African American mainly, wouldn't exist otherwise

Native American - Taíno

Fried chicken-African American

Surely people have been frying chickens everywhere.

 

Mac and Cheese -African American

Pecan Pie-African American

Tex-Mex/Mexican-Afro-Latino

 

Middle Eastern-

Kebab-Central Asian TUrkic

Kebab is etymologically Arabic and the concept of cooking meat on a stick over a fire is about as old as cooking

Kaymak-Central Asian Turkic

The word, yes, the product, not necessarily

Baklava-Central Asian Turkic

shishbarak-Central Asian turkic

Central Asian Persian, this was discussed

 

South Asian-

Biryani/Plov-Central Asian TUrkic (even rice in Asia is due to Chinese migration to India)

Persian

Samosa/Sambusa-Central Asian Turkic

Persian/Medieval Arab

aushak-central asian turkic

naan-central asian turkic

Persian

Kerela Mutton/Pork Fry-Malaysian/SE Asian

 

How do people get the origins so wrong?

 

Some corrections for you. Remember demographically and culturally Central Asia was Persian before the Turks showed up in the last 1000 years.

Edited April 10, 2020 by Hassouni (log)

[Hassouni]

5 hours ago, shawarma_prince said:

Heck even yogurt is Central Asian Turkish.

 

Only the word is. Yogurt has been a thing from the Middle East and Caucasus through South Asia long before the Turks showed up...hence the words for yogurt in Arabic, Persian, Georgian, Armenian, and Indic languages being indigenous.

[cdh]

Well, as a european-american, I'll gladly own up to heaps of cultural appropriation, or theft should you want to characterize it that way.  Not a lot of tasty spices are native to Holland or North America, and I certainly like foods that contain spices.  I'm guility.  You win. 

Edited April 10, 2020 by cdh (log)

[gfweb]

4 hours ago, IowaDee said:

During a spell of having too much time on my hands, I started a list of what every country used as a wrap.  Tortillas, won ton wrappers and the like.  They have been reinvented more times than I could list.  No way could anyone trace the first person or nation to use them in any form.  It made the afternoon go quickly though.

Bobby Valentine has claimed he invented the wrap sandwich.

http://www.thepostgame.com/blog/dish/201112/new-red-sox-manager-bobby-valentines-odd-food-invention

[liuzhou]

18 hours ago, shawarma_prince said:

even rice in Asia is due to Chinese migration to India

 

Where do you think China is? It's in Asia! So, the reason rice is in Asia is because it was taken to India? That makes no sense, whatsoever. The reason rice is in Asia is because it is native to Asia (except for African rice which no doubt comes from Greenland!)

Edited April 11, 2020 by liuzhou (log)

[shawarma_prince]

Sorry if I spread some misinformation. Guess I read a really biased website.

 

Some other laughable claims were

 

steak tartare-kibbeh neyeh-Mongolian as opposed to universal

 

sauerkraut-Mongolian as opposed to ancient Roman

Chopped meat and thus hamburgers-Mongolian as opposed to German/american

shaved ice- Chinese as opposed to Roman/universal

pickling-CHinese as opposed to universal

Bacon-chinese as opposed to many European cultures as well

 

 

 

[shawarma_prince]

On 4/10/2020 at 1:18 PM, Hassouni said:

 

Only the word is. Yogurt has been a thing from the Middle East and Caucasus through South Asia long before the Turks showed up...hence the words for yogurt in Arabic, Persian, Georgian, Armenian, and Indic languages being indigenous.

 

That makes sense. Even kaymak has an arabic version in ashta. Also regarding shishbarak/aushak almost every culture has dumplings so it seems silly that Persians or Afghans couldn't invent them on their own.

Edited April 13, 2020 by shawarma_prince (log)

[shawarma_prince]

Also it would make sense plot is Tajik and not "Uzbek" given Samarkand and Bukhara have mostly Tajik populations.

[shawarma_prince]

On 4/10/2020 at 1:16 PM, Hassouni said:

 

Some corrections for you. Remember demographically and culturally Central Asia was Persian before the Turks showed up in the last 1000 years.

 

 

I don't think it was Persian for that long but rather it was home to a bunch of Iranian speaking peoples (Parthians, Khwarezmians, Sogdianans, Bactrians, Khotanese Sakas, Massgetae, Scythians). Wonder what the food of the latter two groups was like (or would have been if they still existed).

[Hassouni]

8 hours ago, shawarma_prince said:

 

I don't think it was Persian for that long but rather it was home to a bunch of Iranian speaking peoples (Parthians, Khwarezmians, Sogdianans, Bactrians, Khotanese Sakas, Massgetae, Scythians). Wonder what the food of the latter two groups was like (or would have been if they still existed).

 

Central Asia was under Persian suzerainty if not direct rule and settlement (and pervasive cultural and linguistic influence) since the time of Cyrus until roughly the Kara-Khanids in the late 10th/early 11th century. It's arguable that the dominant  culture, if not language of sedentary Central Asia today is still Persian.

 

All this is to say I suspect the food of all the random Eastern Iranian ethnicities was pretty damn close to what the people there are eating today, maybe with a bit less East Asian influence (I've often said Uzbek food is mostly Persian with a bit of Chinese and Turkic thrown in) - hell look at modern Eastern Iranian Afghans/Pashtuns - their own food is basically "mostly Persian with Indian influences"

[shawarma_prince]

On 4/15/2020 at 11:33 PM, Hassouni said:

 

Central Asia was under Persian suzerainty if not direct rule and settlement (and pervasive cultural and linguistic influence) since the time of Cyrus until roughly the Kara-Khanids in the late 10th/early 11th century. It's arguable that the dominant  culture, if not language of sedentary Central Asia today is still Persian.

 

All this is to say I suspect the food of all the random Eastern Iranian ethnicities was pretty damn close to what the people there are eating today, maybe with a bit less East Asian influence (I've often said Uzbek food is mostly Persian with a bit of Chinese and Turkic thrown in) - hell look at modern Eastern Iranian Afghans/Pashtuns - their own food is basically "mostly Persian with Indian influences"

 

Gotcha. I was wondering what steppe nomad food was like. I would imagine horse meat and bread and such.

[Hassouni]

9 hours ago, shawarma_prince said:

 

Gotcha. I was wondering what steppe nomad food was like. I would imagine horse meat and bread and such.

 

Yes. Look at modern Kazakh, Kyrgyz, or Mongolian food. Lots of horse meat, lots of dairy. Before the Turkic expansion, Central Asia was not especially nomadic.

[shawarma_prince]

2 hours ago, Hassouni said:

 

Yes. Look at modern Kazakh, Kyrgyz, or Mongolian food. Lots of horse meat, lots of dairy. Before the Turkic expansion, Central Asia was not especially nomadic.

 

Do you think those specific dairy products such as kayak, Kurt, and aryan are turkic in origin or are they the result Scythians and/or the sedentary Iranian population? What about things such as horse meat and the practice of eating raw meat? Sorry to bother you. Food history is just so interesting.

[shawarma_prince]

On 4/17/2020 at 6:25 PM, shawarma_prince said:

 

Do you think those specific dairy products such as kayak, Kurt, and aryan are turkic in origin or are they the result Scythians and/or the sedentary Iranian population? What about things such as horse meat and the practice of eating raw meat? Sorry to bother you. Food history is just so interesting.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashk

So if kashak is Persian in addition to joshpara and aushak then Persian cuisine is very underrated.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kesme#Reshteh

 

I would imagine kemse is derived from Middle Eastern rishta pasta,

Edited April 21, 2020 by shawarma_prince (log)

[Hassouni]

reshteh is also Persian.

 

But Persian food is hardly underrated, it's often counted as one of the world's greats.

[chromedome]

1 hour ago, Hassouni said:

reshteh is also Persian.

 

But Persian food is hardly underrated, it's often counted as one of the world's greats.

Well...I would add the phrase "...by those in the know."

 

So IMO you're both right.

[shawarma_prince]

2 hours ago, Hassouni said:

reshteh is also Persian.

 

But Persian food is hardly underrated, it's often counted as one of the world's greats.

 

You have ancestry from directly west of Iran. I have ancestry from directly east of Iran. I can see how Persian food is not that well regarded or know about by people not from this part of the world. Even among people in the know Turkish food (and to some degree Arabic) is considered better. That's debatable but Persian food is definitely more influential. It might also be because certain things are falsely given a Arabic or Turkish origin and the Greek, Assyrian/Armenian (baklava-https://libanaissweets.com/about-us/the-history-of-baklava/), Caucasian (pide ie khachapuri) and Persian contribution to those cuisines is not considered. If joshpara and aushak are actually Persian then manti is probably just a derivation of that. Even the Arabic contribution to Turkish food is downplayed (lahmacun,falafelm hummus, kenefe, baba ganoush, style of rice etc).

Edited April 21, 2020 by shawarma_prince (log)

[shawarma_prince]

On 4/21/2020 at 4:37 PM, Hassouni said:

reshteh is also Persian.

 

But Persian food is hardly underrated, it's often counted as one of the world's greats.

 

There's noodles in falodeh shirazi too. Its kind of hard to believe that Persians independently invented noodles (reshteh) and dumplings(joshpara/aushak) but that's pretty cool.