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Issues with Thermador Service


Raamo

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Any one else own Thermador products and had an issue?  We're "lucky" I had an extended warranty in place so I'm not financially involved, just time involved.  Our Stem oven stopped working with steam which kinda defeats the entire point of this oven.  Basically it doesn't recognize the presences of water in the tank, except for when it's off - it now complains about there being water when there very much is not.

 

Luckily our local service people have a clue but they've been jerked around to by Thermador, it's very frustrating as each ship a new part / schedule a tech takes 10 days or so (Thermador seem to be the ones driving this at the direction of the warranty service).  It took almost 3 months to figure out the fix for the cracked top was in fact a bad replacement top.  They replaced everything  inside the cook top and our service folks even had the unit in their shop (which they managed to reverse the left and right wiring) and didn't solve it until they came back out with a replacement top (and parts to replace everything inside)

 

On the bright side our Cook top is all new except for the shell...  The Steam oven is still broken.  The replacement main board should show up this week, tbd when we can get the tech out to replace it.

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37 minutes ago, gfweb said:

Sorry to hear about your trials @Raamo  

 

Tell us about the steam oven feature please. When it's working how does it do?

 

Water from the tank goes into the bottom of the stainless steel convection oven and it boils this water to create steam (and technically fog as well).  It works great because you can steam eggs and vegetables, as well as anything else you want to cook at a specific temp (kinda like sous vide).  We use it all the time to bake bread as you can use steam to delay crust formation and thus create artisan bread (with the crackly crust).  

 

The steam oven right now thinks the water tank is always empty so it won't steam.  It has a fan and a heating element so it can work as a convection oven - though not as good as a normal convection oven - but it's also able to run in a combo mode and steam / convection heat - this is great for reheating leftovers like rice.

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8 hours ago, Raamo said:

Water from the tank ...

 

I had a Thermador six burner gas cooktop in a previous home. I loved it. Still miss that thing. Two of the burners had an ultra-low mode that used a little circuit board to turn on and off. A nearby lightening strike fried that control board. Thermador covered it under warranty (they could have used "act of God" as an out) with no problems. They didn't give me any grief about self-install either. That was great - sped things up tremendously.

 

My mind is reeling a bit over the whole water tank concept for a fixed appliance. No one would accept a water tank for the ice maker in a refrigerator. Why for one in a steam oven? Why is it not permanently plumbed in?

 

 

sail fast and eat well, dave

Dave Skolnick S/V Auspicious

http://AuspiciousWorks.com

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1 hour ago, Auspicious said:

My mind is reeling a bit over the whole water tank concept for a fixed appliance. No one would accept a water tank for the ice maker in a refrigerator. Why for one in a steam oven? Why is it not permanently plumbed in?

 

It is very odd,  considering this cost around $4,000, it is the most expensive appliance in our kitchen, the ones that are plumbed in seem to start even higher.  You also can't set a specific level of humidity it's binary steam or no steam.  It has a number of "program modes" for various things, I don't use them for cooking any meat or fish, but it works as well as manually controlling the modes to replicate bread instructions in Modernist Bread.  It's clearly built for a home cook who does not own Modernist Cuisine, that being said I've been able to bend it to my will :)

 

Also this model is made in France, the model number contains VERY few digits so it doesn't seem they make many - thus the high price.

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Here's what the front looks like - this icon means the oven thinks there's water in the tank, not supposed to leave water in here, and after 48 hours this turns on.

steamoven.thumb.png.5ef33bc6563d26798fedec30494a4ca6.png

 

But there is no water in the tank, I can even pull it out and it doesn't turn off.  (which is what it used to do).  Anyway hopefully replacing the logic board fixes this.

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@Auspicious

 

"My mind is reeling a bit over the whole water tank concept for a fixed appliance.''

 

water that is destined to  become steam might not have a lot to do water that is destined for Ice.

 

many CSO work very very well of Combi-Cooking.

 

plumbing in is a serious expense for a home user

 

its not necessary for an over 

 

as for steam Fx very little water is used

 

for steam cleaning , a different matter

 

there is steam cleaning , which uses very little water

 

and then there is Steam-Wash which commercial combi's use

 

that uses a lot ow water and need a drain.

 

get yourself a Cusinart Steam Oven 

 

and find out

 

or review the extensive threads here.

 

 

 

 

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Sorry to hear about your problems.  I would think that it is either A) the sensor that is supposed to determine whether there is water has gone bad,  or B  the wire from the sensor to the computer, or C)  the computer board that interprets the sensor signal.    If there was a way to test the sensor, it should have been tested, though it is possible it is not easy to test, and instead they just sent a new sensor.  By this point, they should have been able to determine what was wrong and replace that part.  BTW,  I have a combi with a water tank and love it.  To be honest,  I use it all the time even when I am not using the steam or combi mode , because for regular convection it heats up in a fraction of the time as my full sized oven, so it is more convenient to use. 

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The sensor was already replaced, the tank was also replaced.  Next up it's the control unit.

 

I have used it not in steam in the past but rarely - we mostly use it for the steam mode, often many times a week.

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7 hours ago, rotuts said:

water that is destined to  become steam might not have a lot to do water that is destined for Ice.

 

 

 

It's water. It comes from the same place and is the same chemical. Whether you pour it into an ice cube tray or a tea kettle its the same.

 

The plumbing isn't a big deal either: flexible copper pipe and a vampire tap. There is water all over most kitchens. Sink, dishwasher, maybe icemaker, maybe bar sink. Often there is a powder room on the other side of a common wall with the kitchen; more water. Heck, you can get plumbed coffee makers, including from Keurig for those so inclined. Pulling an electrical circuit is a bigger deal.

 

Given the cost of the appliance another $150 seems a pretty small price to pay for the convenience. What happens if you run out of water part way through cooking? The reservoir is only 1.4 qts in Thermador ovens (Google is my friend).

 

I couldn't find a hard-plumbing option for Thermador. Miele has one. I'll return to my original simile. You wouldn't put up with a tank you have to fill for the icemaker in your refrigerator. Why put up with one in a steam oven?

 

The question is philosophical and is not in any way intended to reflect on @Raamo's choice of appliance. The manufacturers (all of them) should give consumers the option. Now about that plumbed coffee maker.... *grin*

 

sail fast and eat well, dave

Dave Skolnick S/V Auspicious

http://AuspiciousWorks.com

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44 minutes ago, Auspicious said:

 

It's water. It comes from the same place and is the same chemical. Whether you pour it into an ice cube tray or a tea kettle its the same.

 

The plumbing isn't a big deal either: flexible copper pipe and a vampire tap. There is water all over most kitchens. Sink, dishwasher, maybe icemaker, maybe bar sink. Often there is a powder room on the other side of a common wall with the kitchen; more water. Heck, you can get plumbed coffee makers, including from Keurig for those so inclined. Pulling an electrical circuit is a bigger deal.

 

Given the cost of the appliance another $150 seems a pretty small price to pay for the convenience. What happens if you run out of water part way through cooking? The reservoir is only 1.4 qts in Thermador ovens (Google is my friend).

 

I couldn't find a hard-plumbing option for Thermador. Miele has one. I'll return to my original simile. You wouldn't put up with a tank you have to fill for the icemaker in your refrigerator. Why put up with one in a steam oven?

 

The question is philosophical and is not in any way intended to reflect on @Raamo's choice of appliance. The manufacturers (all of them) should give consumers the option. Now about that plumbed coffee maker.... *grin*

 

Perhaps what @rotuts was getting at was water hardness.  Hardness matters not so much for ice cubes.  (As long as one is not making kombu stock.)  Hardness matters rather more for steam appliances.

 

 

Cooking is cool.  And kitchen gear is even cooler.  -- Chad Ward

Whatever you crave, there's a dumpling for you. -- Hsiao-Ching Chou

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21 minutes ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

 

Perhaps what @rotuts was getting at was water hardness.  Hardness matters not so much for ice cubes.  (As long as one is not making kombu stock.)  Hardness matters rather more for steam appliances.

 

You raise a good point. It is valid for anything in the home that has an orifice. We have high iron content hard well water so I'm painfully aware of the issue. Faucets, shower heads, toilet fills, coffee makers, tea kettles, and yes icemakers are all affected. Unless you use water from a different source there is no difference between filling a steam oven tank at the sink and plumbing it in.

 

sail fast and eat well, dave

Dave Skolnick S/V Auspicious

http://AuspiciousWorks.com

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4 hours ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

 

Perhaps what @rotuts was getting at was water hardness.  Hardness matters not so much for ice cubes.  (As long as one is not making kombu stock.)  Hardness matters rather more for steam appliances.

 

This is very valid and an interesting point.  We have a water softener and we have fairly hard water.  

 

We used to have a filter under the sink - 5 years ago or so I changed it to an reverse osmosis filter in the basement and run lines both to the ice maker and to the faucet that was filtered water.  

 

Interestingly enough in the steam oven book it says not to use RO water .  The reason they replaced the tank is they claim using RO water will gum up the track and make the magnets not travel or not work (this is per Thermador), Needless to say this did not fix our problem.  I switched to using hot softened water in the Steam Oven when I learned that it said not to use RO water and if we use cold water from our tap it's not softened and we will get a lot of build up on the appliance. 

 

The problem I seemed to find with RO water is that it can change the acidity of the water and make it more corrosive.  This is why newer Irons say not to use RO water - it will corrode the inner piping.   I have not run a PH test on my RO water, it doesn't seem to taste differently (which if the ph drops a lot it should?). So maybe all RO water is not the same?

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5 hours ago, Raamo said:

Interestingly enough in the steam oven book it says not to use RO water .

 

That makes no sense at all. I'm in the marine industry and deal with RO watermakers all the time. Someone was making something up. Your RO system should be producing water with a TDS of 300 mg/l or lower; with a little maintenance (clean pre-filters and flush the membranes once in a while) should be 100 mg/l or lower. This is the cleanest purest water you'll find.

Generally debris and other build-up comes from minerals in water. There won't be any to speak of in RO water.

I suggest pushing back--hard (ha!)--on the source of information and asking for more specifics on how pure water is a problem. I expect that you'll have found that since you installed RO your coffee maker needs to be cleaned less often. If you route RO water to shower heads you'll have found, once cleaned, your shower experience is better. Once you clean the aerators in your faucets they will be better and stay better also. If you change a float valve in a toilet it will refill faster. All due to reduced calcium and iron and other minerals in your water. Oh - use less shampoo when you wash your hair and the soap will rinse out more easily in the softer, more pure water.

Have you tested the pH of your water? It should be right at 7.0 coming out of the RO unless you have other treatment after the membrane. RO water is not corrosive than water with minerals in it. For years we were told to only use distilled water in clothes irons. Distillation is a purification method functionally equivalent to RO.

If there is real science to the contrary of above I'd like to see it. With footnotes please.

Here is what reverse osmosis filtration is: water under high pressure is run through a filter membrane with an orifice size at the molecular level. Not only does that filter out salts and other minerals but viruses and bacteria as well. The efficiency is rather low so you'll have a brine discharge that goes somewhere of about 90% of your inflow. This is fine making fresh water from sea water - we just pump the brine back over the side. Not sure where it goes in a home system and what the impact is on your water bill.

 

sail fast and eat well, dave

Dave Skolnick S/V Auspicious

http://AuspiciousWorks.com

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53 minutes ago, Auspicious said:

 

That makes no sense at all.

http://www.lifeionizers.com/blog/reverse-osmosis-water-alkaline/

 

I fully understand what RO water is and how it's made (I'm an engineer)...  It made no sense to me either, but above is one explanation I found and the only rational explanation I could get.  Doesn't' mean I believe it - I do have a TDS  meter and RO water is WAY lower TDS then Tap water.

 

I now have 2 tanks for this Steam Oven, now that I know Thermador's fear of RO has to do with the tanks and not the plumbing - If they make the thing work again, and the old tank continues to work - I could just put RO water in it for the next n years and see if it ever gets gummed up.  But I'm waiting until it's fixed and we fully understand why it broke. 

 

But even the above explanation I don't fully buy - the biggest city here puts it's water through what is basically RO for the entire city.  (http://www.minneapolismn.gov/publicworks/water/water_waterfacts) So would that really be a ph of 5.5?  I'm skeptical. 

 

Just tested TDS at our kitchen sink and one bathroom sink:

Unsoftened cold tap water: 300 ppm 

Hot softened water: 435 ppm 

Cold softened water: 280 ppm 

RO Water: 16 ppm 

Edited by Raamo (log)
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On 8/7/2018 at 3:15 AM, Auspicious said:

No one would accept a water tank for the ice maker in a refrigerator. Why for one in a steam oven? Why is it not permanently plumbed in?

 

A 1L tank wouldn't make all that many ice cubes but will last through hours and hours of steam cooking.  If an ice maker tank ran dry,  you're SOL for the time it takes to freeze more while the oven tank can quickly be refilled and cooking resumed.  I don't run my oven when I'm not in the house so it's no problem if I forget to check the tank and the alarm sounds to remind me to do so. 

 

Looking at responses on steam oven cooking groups, people have many reasons for choosing non-plumbed steam ovens and most of them seem quite happy with their choices.  In many cases, the plumbed ovens require not only a water source but also a drain which will certainly add to the installation considerations.

Like Miele, Gaggenau offers both plumbed and non-plumbed steam ovens.    From what I can tell, Thermador, Siemens, Bosch, Wolf and Neff offer only non-plumbed models.  

 

The same parent corp, BSH, produces Thermador, Bosch, Siemens, Neff and Gaggenau.  

 

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20 minutes ago, Raamo said:

I fully understand what RO water is and how it's made (I'm an engineer)...

 

Great. We're on the same page. BS NA & ME Webb '82. There shouldn't be any air in your plumbing. *grin* That means the process of sucking CO2 out of the air to make carbonic acid starts at the tap. If anything, it reinforces the value of plumbing a steam oven. Regardless the pH will not lead to gumming up the tracks or anything else. That is entirely due to particulates which won't make it through the membrane.

 

Your TDS numbers look reasonable. Out of the well we see around 800 mg/l and around 250 mg/l from the cold taps after particulate filter (the big blue one) and softening. Hot water runs between 250 and 500 depending on how long it has been since I flushed the water heater. I can't sample between the particulate filter and the softener without taking things apart. I clean the faucet aerators once a month (it's easy and I don't forget). Every other month I soak shower heads in vinegar overnight and flush the water heater. Flushing the water heater has made my wife a lot happier. Stuff builds up in the bottom. That seems to keep us on top of things without RO. I have a couple of ROs in boxes here in my shop waiting for installation on boats. *grin*

 

Where does your brine discharge go? Back down the well-head?

 

sail fast and eat well, dave

Dave Skolnick S/V Auspicious

http://AuspiciousWorks.com

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27 minutes ago, Auspicious said:

Where does your brine discharge go? Back down the well-head?

 

We're on city water (not Minneapolis, out in the burbs)  - it goes down the drain.

 

We get the Hot Water flushed 2x a year.  Though it'll be 3x this year - I flushed to replace the anode rod.

Edited by Raamo (log)
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I have a Thermador induction cooktop CIT365GM.  It worked great for five years then it started playing up.  When I go to turn it on, all of the burners and the timer have a flashing “E”.  I have had the technician out several times.  He replaced the display panel twice.  It worked for five days after the first time and three days after the second time.  The technician also called technicians and neither of them know what is wrong with the cooktop.  I have spent the last year dealing with this issue.  Thermador does not know what is wrong with the cooktop therefore does not know how to fix it.  The serial number is 000007, which makes me believe that it is the seventh one off the production line.  Either they are hiding a known issue that has been fixed in newer models or they do not want to admit that they do not know what is wrong with it.  I asked them to replace the cooktop because they cannot fix it.  They have offered to have me pay over $2200 to replace it.  Thermador is supposed to be high end and should work for more than five years.

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@HeideM

 

am I correct that T is offering thou $2,200  to install a new one ?

 

or 2,200 to " go away and not bitter them 

 

Id take the 2.2 and a new top

 

if worked for 5 years , and may work longer this time as they have been making it for a while

 

I lust  i am interested in a high quality 30 " induction oven 

 

and am dumb enough to wait for a combi-oven to go with it.

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Rotus

 

T is offering to have me paid $2219 plus tax for new one then I still need to pay someone to install it.  They would probably charge me shipping too based on the way they have been behaving.  I am not sure I have confidence in the product any longer.  

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