Stock ; iPot vs simmer

[rotuts]

I have a fair number of turkey carcasses that id hoped to turn into stock , in as easy a manner as possible.

 

thus the IntantPot  w its nice  ' stock ' button.

 

when I used to deconstruct a whole turkey some time ago ,I used to roast the chopped up carcass and trimmings

 

with no skin or any major gobs of turkey fat.   Im not a fan of turkey nor chicken fat.

 

then Id defat and deglaze the pan used for roasting the bones  ( plain , no seasonings nor veg )

 

then simmer the stuff for an hour or so on a slow simmer.  remove the bones , same the meat for giblet gravy

 

and de-fat again   .  well worth it.

 

Ive tried this in the iPot  w/o roasting the bones and was not happy w the resulting stock.

 

still unseasoned.    I chill it , and de-fat it .  there was not much fat to remove.

 

but the flavor was to turkey-fatty for me.

 

so Im wondering is the higher temp of a PC  changes the fat some how , and adds that flavor to the stock.

 

the simmer method was fine , the iPot not so much  for my tastes 

 

any ideas about what that temp diff does to the final flavor ?

[paulraphael]

A pressure cooker adds some maillard flavors to a stock. Used correctly, it also keeps the stock below a simmer, so fats are less likely to emulsify and you get more clarity (visual and flavor). And if you can keep the pc from venting, it holds in more of the aromatics.

 

I've never used an IP ... isn't it a pressure cooker too?

Edited March 27, 2018 by paulraphael (log)

[btbyrd]

My thought is that there maybe some volatile flavor compound(s) that gets driven off or changed by the roasting process or by simmering in an open pot, but that this can't happen in the IP. If all you're doing is throwing raw turkey bits in a sealed cooking vessel, there's no where for those aroma/flavor compounds to go. Maybe they end up as "turkey fat flavor" in your stock. That's pure conjecture, of course, but a thought.

 

I make virtually all of my stock in a pressure cooker these days, and I almost always roast the bones first. Roasting creates a flavor that I prefer for most applications (unless you need a delicate stock, which can happen) and it mostly removes the need for blanching the bones/meat, since the roasting process helps denature a lot of the nasty bits that'd float to the top of your stockpot. If you neither blanched nor roasted, that might be the cause of the issue.

 

Or maybe you just got a funkier turkey, or its fat oxidized as you stored the carcass, or some such thing. I doubt it's the Instant Pot.

[Martin Fisher]

To my taste, a pressure cooker (or a long simmer) ruins chicken or turkey stock—but not broth.

Sanguine flavor is extracted from within the bones.

Fine with red meat/bones, but not white meat, especially from young birds—which most are.

 

Which is why I, generally, prefer Edna Lewis' method of chicken stock making, which is very quick and simple.

Edna said, and I agree: "I do not believe in cooking stock for a long period of time; it loses it's good flavor."

I don't chop the bones, I separate at the joints only.

 

Even better when combined with Scott Peacock's chicken stock method.

Edited March 27, 2018 by DiggingDogFarm (log)

[rotuts]

interesting points

 

and I thank you for the analysis

 

@paulraphael

 

the InstantPot is the lazy persons PC

 

that's me !

 

@btbyrd

 

what you say about oxidized fat is interesting.

 

but t all the turkeys Ive used are Fz and enjoyed my freezer for about the same amount if time.

 

in their original sealed bag.

 

tomorrow I have two TB's to do the same as ive done.

 

Ill save both carcasses and remove as much fat as reasonable

 

 

and put one in the iPot as Ive done before , and add the second to a VacBag and

 

Sv that one at ??  175 or so for 12 H ?  or more  and see if the taste is different.

[paulraphael]

8 minutes ago, DiggingDogFarm said:

To my taste, a pressure cooker (or a long simmer) ruins chicken or turkey stock—but not broth.

Sanguine flavor is extracted from within the bones.

Fine with red meat/bones, but not white meat, especially from young birds—which most are.

 

That's peculiar. Does that mean blood flavor? I associate that with  metalic / iron taste. Never experienced this in any chicken or turkey stock from the PC.

 

I don't use the PC for fish or vegetable stocks. I get the best results doing these sous-vide at 85°C. Precook the garlic or leave it out; use about 1/3 the onions/shallots and carrots compared with conventional stocks.

Edited March 27, 2018 by paulraphael (log)

[Martin Fisher]

2 minutes ago, paulraphael said:

Does that mean blood flavor?

 

Yes, It's horrible.

 

[paulraphael]

8 minutes ago, DiggingDogFarm said:

 

Yes, It's horrible.

 

 

I wonder if there's something else going on. I've never heard anyone describe this before.

[rotuts]

thanks

 

@DiggingDogFarm

 

pls check your last ref

 

for me it goes back to Edna Lewis

 

and for sure , she knew how to cook !

[rotuts]

remember , in my case its just the taste of Ck or Turkey fat

 

and its very different out of the PC

 

to my taste.

 

might be OK if I liked CF or TF  but I don't.

[Martin Fisher]

13 minutes ago, paulraphael said:

 

I wonder if there's something else going on. I've never heard anyone describe this before.

 

I have an Instant Pot Mini, three Hawkins stainless steel pressure cookers (3 liter, 6 liter, and 10 liter), and two big All-American pressure cooker/canners.

Same effect in all of them.

Not as much an issue with old hard-boned stewing birds.

Edited March 27, 2018 by DiggingDogFarm (log)

[Martin Fisher]

5 minutes ago, rotuts said:

thanks

 

@DiggingDogFarm

 

pls check your last ref

 

for me it goes back to Edna Lewis

 

and for sure , she knew how to cook !

 

I fixed it.

Scott worked with Edna. 

 

[weinoo]

I make chicken stock any number of ways.  But I still find the way I learned in cooking school, French classic, unroasted bones, mirepoix, bouquet garni, 4-5 hours stove top, skimming, to be about the best tasting.

 

The MC method is very good. And lately I use the IP (I do use mostly older birds and parts), making sure to do a natural release (i.e. if I'm correct, that means letting it cool by itself). This stock is also very good, and saves a few hours. 

[paulraphael]

5 hours ago, DiggingDogFarm said:

 

I have an Instant Pot Mini, three Hawkins stainless steel pressure cookers (3 liter, 6 liter, and 10 liter), and two big All-American pressure cooker/canners.

Same effect in all of them.

Not as much an issue with old hard-boned stewing birds.

 

 

It's possibly an issue with the design of the Hawkins cookers. Have you read this post on Cooking Issues? This information gets glossed over by just about everyone, including the Modernist Cuisine team.

[Martin Fisher]

1 minute ago, paulraphael said:

 

It's possibly an issue with the design of the Hawkins cookers. Have you read this post on Cooking Issues? This information gets glossed over by just about everyone, including the Modernist Cuisine team.

 

Well aware of that article.

I run the Hawkins pressure cookers at lower than maximum pressure—below the point of venting.

I've made stock in a myriad of ways—even in canning jars where no flavor can escape.

Basically the same result—some sanguine flavor.

I love liver, but I don't like a hint of liver in my poultry stock.

[paulraphael]

2 minutes ago, DiggingDogFarm said:

 

Well aware of that article.

I run the Hawkins pressure cookers at lower than maximum pressure—below the point of venting.

I've made stock in a myriad of ways—even in canning jars where no flavor can escape.

Basically the same result—some sanguine flavor.

I love liver, but I don't like a hint of liver in my poultry stock.

 

Still a mystery. I don't like liver, and if I tasted it in my stock it would go down the sink. But I've been doing PC stock exclusively for the last 4 years.

[Martin Fisher]

Just now, paulraphael said:

 

Still a mystery. I don't like liver, and if I tasted it in my stock it would go down the sink. But I've been doing PC stock exclusively for the last 4 years.

 

Folks perceive things differently, I guess.

Until folks can trade taste buds we won't have a reliable/realistic way to compare.

I described it as horrible, which is probably going overboard. it's certainly edible, but it's not good, pure, chicken or turkey flavor.

[FeChef]

Too much rocket science in this thread. Either boil off the yuck before PC or roast before PC roasting will give a darker color, boiling will keep the color lighter and also remove the taste/feel you don't like.

[weinoo]

8 hours ago, FeChef said:

Too much rocket science in this thread. Either boil off the yuck before PC or roast before PC roasting will give a darker color, boiling will keep the color lighter and also remove the taste/feel you don't like.

I remember when I first started teaching myself about cooking, it was with Chinese food, back in the day.  And a few of my first Chinese cookbooks taught that the proper way to make a chicken stock was to bring the bones to a boil first, dump it and rinse the bones, and then start your stock.  

[rotuts]

@weinoo

 

this method is not just Chnese.

 

Ive seen it in some classic FR cookbooks

[weinoo]

When I saw how much schmutz used to come off of those bones, I certainly understood the reasoning behind the methodology.

[rotuts]

the schmutz is probably not blood , but mostly odd bits of protein-nacious ooze 

[Martin Fisher]

4 hours ago, weinoo said:

...the proper way to make a chicken stock was to bring the bones to a boil first, dump it and rinse the bones, and then start your stock. 

 

Colicchio pushes that technique.

Edited March 28, 2018 by DiggingDogFarm (log)

[paulraphael]

6 hours ago, weinoo said:

I remember when I first started teaching myself about cooking, it was with Chinese food, back in the day.  And a few of my first Chinese cookbooks taught that the proper way to make a chicken stock was to bring the bones to a boil first, dump it and rinse the bones, and then start your stock.  

 

I'm pretty sure every culinary textbook advocates this. For white stock. If you don't blanch the bones, you'll have hazy muck. If you're roasting the bones there's no need. If I recall, Thomas Keller blanched the bones more than once at the FL. 

[weinoo]

I don't know about that, Paul.  We were taught (and we were taught classic French technique) skim, skim, skim. Bocuse says nothing about blanching. Eric nada. And Tom says:

 

Quote

Pouring off the original water after the first boil will remove all of the blood and a lot of the coagulated proteins, which form a gray scum on the surface. Classic technique allows you to merely skim this off the surface, adding more water if necessary. I prefer to update that method in this way, since no matter how much you skim, you’ll never be rid of the byproducts completely. Don’t worry that you’re throwing out flavor, you’re not. The bones need to cook a good deal longer to extract flavor.

 

Maybe those culinary textbooks you're referring to have been updated to reflect ancient Chinese secrets  .