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Okanagancook

Oxtail Tapas Fell Apart

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I am making an oxtail tapas for a dinner group.  The recipe has you braise the oxtails in wine and other aromatics.  When done, take the meat off the bones, chop and roll into a 1 1/2 inch diameter tube.  It is compressed and wrapped nice and tight then put in the fridge to gel.  My roll has been in the fridge for two days and it was very firm.  I sliced off a 1 1/2 inch disc, dusted it with bread crumbs and fried it in fat on medium heat for one minute with the bread crumb side down.  I flipped it and put in my little CSO on 450F convection bake for 6 minutes.  Everything looked good until about 2 minutes to go then it all fell apart.  Very tasty but not what I need for presentation.  This recipe is from Pinto by Gerald Hirigoyen.

 

How can I get the meat cylinder to stay together?  

 

I thought about reducing the oven heat to something way more gentle, just so the meat gets hot.  Mine was quite brown and a little crispy on the outside done as above.  Maybe put them in at 350 for 6 minutes?

I do have some meat glue so I could take the roll apart and mix some meat glue through the meat and reconstruct the roll???

I could maybe add more gelatine and reform the rolls but I don't think that would work because the added gelatine will melt on heating like the natural gelatine from the meat.

 

Any ideas?

Thanks.

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Maybe thinner discs and just pan fry them?

 

Otherwise, yeah, meat glue.

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Yes, that might work.  The disc was still intact after one minute in the fry pan.  That way I could poke them and see whether they were about to fall apart.  I have some spare roll so will try that.  Rather not use the meat glue and redo the rolling.  Thanks.

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I would offer two work-arounds:

 

1) the addition of minor amounts of heat-stable gelling agent, maybe Gellan or Agar, to act as an additional binder.

 

2) creating a more stable jacket, by flour/egg wash/panko or similar coatings that act as a containment for more fluid content (think cream croquettes or classic French pork feet).

 

Enjoy experimenting - especially rewarding if also the failed attempts are delicious ...

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Doesn't agar dissolve/melt with heat?

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Posted (edited)

Melts at 85 oC vs 37 oC for gelatine. I doubt that the procedure produces 85 oC internal temperature in the roll, given that the gelatine only looses its structural integrity 2 min before finish ..

 

 


Edited by Duvel (log)
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I found some agar in my pantry.  I have 600 grams of the meat roll.  I see you mention 'minor' amounts but how much do you think I would need for this amount of meat.  I have it in two pieces so I could just try a small amount to see if it works.

I could also try and coat the whole disc in bread crumbs rather than just one side as the recipe directs.

Thank you.

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2 hours ago, Okanagancook said:

I found some agar in my pantry.  I have 600 grams of the meat roll.  I see you mention 'minor' amounts but how much do you think I would need for this amount of meat.  I have it in two pieces so I could just try a small amount to see if it works.

I could also try and coat the whole disc in bread crumbs rather than just one side as the recipe directs.

Thank you.

It depends on the liquid content in its warm state. Heat it up, take the formed liquid and start with a teaspoon (asuming its powder). Mix well while still hot, as it will gel around 50 oC.

Breadcrumbs alone won't hold. You need an enclosed layer, so flour/eggwash and breadcrumbs. Would make for a neater presentation as well ...

You may check for preparations of boneless pork feet. Same principle.

 

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Thanks Duvel.  The mixture doesn't have much moisture so I can use some of my sauce to mix in the agar.

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Try not to "dilute" it too much. If the mixture becomes fluid upon heating, try to stir in the agar powder directly. Will be better than adding extra fluid.

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The meat was quite coarse so I chopped it a bit more then I used a little sauce heated below gelling temp then whisked in the agar and mixed this well into the meat, rolled and it is in the fridge setting.  I took pics.  This afternoon I will test a piece and post the results.  Hope I did not add too much liquid.  I have another batch of meat to dilute this if need be.  I think I will just fry the discs rather than put them in the oven that way I can keep the temp below agar melt temp.

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Well, partial success.

Pics 1 and 2:  Meat before and after I chopped it for better binding.

Pics 3 and 4:  agar/sauce mixture and the rolls cut after setting.  I added 1 gram of agar per 100 grams of meat which was 1.25 grams for 175 grams of meat with 45 ml of sauce to dissolve.  On re-reading Duvel's instructions, the mixture was not taken to 50C, only to around 40C.  Did I need to get it to 50C so it gelled properly?  I have not worked with this before.

Pics 5 and 6:  Disc in the pan and on the plate.

 

I put the disc in the pan which was 178C to 196C via infra-red thermometer for 4 minutes.  The centre was 26C.  I flipped in and turned the heat down to 16C2 and cooked until the centre was around 43C but the bottom part was 60C.  It held together enough to get it on the plate in one piece.  It was very delicate and only JUST hot enough.  I figure I can do this then pour hot gravy/sauce over the top to raise the heat of the over dish.  

 

Not sure adding more agar will make a difference seeing it appears to be the temperature that is the determining factor as to whether it stays together or not. ???

 

(I see that my sauce is splitting >:(.  Will have to work that one out.)

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Ok, I will answer my own question.  Yes I should have heated the agar to a simmer for a couple of minutes then mixed it into my meat where it would have set.  According to googling info, it will not melt again unless grought to 80-90c which should work well when I heat my oxtail discs.

 

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That's correct. You need to hear it up above the melting point to properly dissolve it.

16 hours ago, Duvel said:

Melts at 85 oC vs 37 oC for gelatine. 

 

Then upon cooling, it will solidify around 50 oC.

13 hours ago, Duvel said:

Mix well while still hot, as it will gel around 50 oC.

 

I think amountwise you are good, as even with partial gelatization you are almost there. I'd suggest to take the remaining material with the added agar and reheat to simmer and cool down again. Should be fine then.

 

Good looking disc in the pan picture. I think your guests will like that !

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Sounds good Duvel.  Thank you for all your help.

cheers.

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why not just use meat glue like the first reply suggested? I am not familiar with this dish so i don't know what its final texture should be, but what about a thicker breading then just a dusting of flour? More like mozz sticks type breading.

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Posted (edited)

My meat glue in the freezer is old so I thought I would try the agar.  It’s done now.  The recipe is shredded braised oxtail meat which is rolled in cling film like Happy in the Kitchen technique.  After setting in the fridge it is a firm roll.  Then it is sliced into 1 1/2inch discs, breaded on one cut edge and reheated in a pan and then in the oven.  Served as a tapas dish with the braising sauce poured over the top.  Pretty simple except when I put in the oven it fell apart in the oven.

 

if I were to do it again I would use meat glue once I find more.  It does taste amazing I might add.

 

if I were to bread more of the outside then it would need frying too which would mean more handling which I am afraid would increase the chance of it falling apart more.


Edited by Okanagancook (log)

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Posted (edited)

.


Edited by gfweb (log)

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On 04/01/2018 at 11:14 PM, Okanagancook said:

My meat glue in the freezer is old so I thought I would try the agar.  It’s done now.  The recipe is shredded braised oxtail meat which is rolled in cling film like Happy in the Kitchen technique.  After setting in the fridge it is a firm roll.  Then it is sliced into 1 1/2inch discs, breaded on one cut edge and reheated in a pan and then in the oven.  Served as a tapas dish with the braising sauce poured over the top.  Pretty simple except when I put in the oven it fell apart in the oven.

 

if I were to do it again I would use meat glue once I find more.  It does taste amazing I might add.

 

if I were to bread more of the outside then it would need frying too which would mean more handling which I am afraid would increase the chance of it falling apart more.

 

 

I've done this kind of dish a few times, mostly with beef shank, and while it's a little fragile when hot, I've never had it fall apart.

 

What I would recommend for the next time is not chopping the meat up.  Leave the pieces as big as possible and roll them all together when still warm - the bigger the piece, the more structural integrity it will have.  Then I either just heat the slices gently in the oven, or sauté on one side, turn over and finish in the oven.

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Those chunks of meat are very large.  And here I chopped mine finer thinking they would stick together better.  At least I did roll them while still warm.Thanks for posting and I plan on heating those puppies very slowly with minimal handling.

cheers

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Posted (edited)

Maybe omit the initial braise and do a long sous vide with meat glue?


Edited by gfweb (log)

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14 minutes ago, gfweb said:

Maybe omit the initial braise and do a long sous vide with meat glue?

 

 

I'm not sure how the meat glue would help, unless you deboned an entire oxtail and wanted to glue it back together.  Even then, the gelatin would hold it together fine - there's even more in tail than there is in shank.  

 

Although, it might be an idea to just braise the entire tail until you can pull the bones out easily, and then roll it.  That way, you'll have the natural rounded shape of the muscles working to your advantage when you slice it.

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There is quite a lot of natural gelatin in the meat and my idea with using the meat glue was to just make it a little more stable for frying.

A got a really nice sauce braising the tails in wine and the usual aromatics so I think I would do that again rather than sous vide.  The meat seemed pretty moist with all the gelatin.

 

I have made a similar dish from Happy in the Kitchen using pigs feet which are cooked, boned and rolled in plastic wrap, left to set then wrapped in spring roll wrappers and deep fried.  The meat is nice and moist and inside the wrapper the meat falls apart when you eat it.   Those, by the way are amazing if you have the book, and his sauce to go with is to die for.

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But gelatin melts at around 100F, no? Frying is way hotter than that

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