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Raamo

Baking with Myhrvold's "Modernist Bread: The Art and Science"

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55 minutes ago, ChezAndré said:

modified cornstarch

The cornstarch isn't the relaxant, the bromelain is -- but you use very very small quantities of bromelain so she is "diluting" it in starch. I've got a scale that's accurate to 1/1000th of a gram, which is what I use for the bromelain, cysteine, and yeast (when such small quantities are called for). @Kerry Beal, did you try to scale it normally before resorting you resorted to diluting it? What method did you use in your first go at using it, where you wound up with liquified dough?

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1 minute ago, ChezAndré said:

You say "full gluten development" but i take it that you mean full hydration which is the first step of gluten formation.. ;)

I mean it passed the window pane test for full gluten development.

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Dough relaxant.... i see no need for that except in a manufacturing environment and this is why they were "designed".  If i feel i need a dough relaxant, than i would change my flour mix to start with.

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The relaxant is optional in the pizza dough -- I left it out and still ended up with pizza :) . The theory is that it makes the dough easier to form when you are just learning, I think. Sort of "training wheels" for fledgling pizza makers.

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1 hour ago, ChezAndré said:

 

Has anyone seen a good discussion about flours?  That is something i was expecting from Modernist Bread, but it shines by its absence.... and i am soooo disappointed from it... I got very little new info from the books.   Heck, they use only bread flour for the French baguette which is a major red light for me....  

Are you looking for any particular information? Also, keep in mind that they are using "bread flour" here as a shorthand for a particular protein content, and their bread flour does not correspond directly (necessarily) to the consumer product labeled "bread flour". For example, I use King Arthur All Purpose where they call for "Bread Flour" and King Arthur Bread Flour when they call for "HIgh Gluten Bread Flour."

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lol, "training wheels"? i more see that as a slippery slope to the dark side.... i more see that as when all else fails.  changing the flour mix is my first goto...  

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2 minutes ago, ChezAndré said:

i more see that as a slippery slope to the dark side....

bd1.jpg

 

also, pizza...

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19 minutes ago, Chris Hennes said:

The cornstarch isn't the relaxant, the bromelain is -- but you use very very small quantities of bromelain so she is "diluting" it in starch. I've got a scale that's accurate to 1/1000th of a gram, which is what I use for the bromelain, cysteine, and yeast (when such small quantities are called for). @Kerry Beal, did you try to scale it normally before resorting you resorted to diluting it? What method did you use in your first go at using it, where you wound up with liquified dough?

I cludged it - probably ended up with about 100 times as much!

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Regarding flour analysis, what i am looking for is an array of grain varietal for different countries with their profiles as to flavour and attributes including alvéogramme Chopin, ash content and the equivalent of the CERAAF Essai de panification.  And including gluten-free flours.  I would love to see more information about the cassava flour.  As well as various modified starches ( corn and tapioca such as expandex).   I have more information some the french CAP books ( Technologies en boulangeries; Pratique en boulangerie; le livre du boulanger....).  

I have a particular interest in gluten-free breads as my spouse is celiac... when i see a recipe with sorghum... i need to pass it or substitute as i find the taste very astringent and unpleasant.... so that is an attribute that i would like to see in a table with other flours.  

 

Which flour works "better" (implying a scale and purpose) to make a chef (levain or sourdough, if you prefer that terminology).   The MB just states as factual using a bread flour for a sourdough... but does not provides any sort of justification for doing so...  a spring flour may provide a different flavour profile than a winter one... 

 

I was expecting Modernist Bread to carefully analyze the full array of ingredients. 

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1 hour ago, Chris Hennes said:

I mean it passed the window pane test for full gluten development.

Yup - I also tested for gluten development after vacuuming and discovered it fully developed!

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1 hour ago, ChezAndré said:

Dough relaxant.... i see no need for that except in a manufacturing environment and this is why they were "designed".  If i feel i need a dough relaxant, than i would change my flour mix to start with.

Why should a home cook not have the same advantages as a manufacturing environment?

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it is not an advantage... not at all.... because of the manufacturing equipment, they have to use a higher gluten content to withstand the abuse then have to resort to a dough relaxant to managing later.... manufacturing issues not applicable to an artisan ( although i do not like the use of the term as it too often is just an excuse for being an apprentice ), of home cook.   If you feel you need a dough relaxant then i think you are using "hard medecine" for something a flaw in the recipe.

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Another thing i would like to see in MB, is a study of mixing yeast and baking powder... i see various recipes doing it, but at times i feel like the two do not cohabit well and i feel that the sum of the two is much less than hoped for.

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2 hours ago, ChezAndré said:

it is not an advantage... not at all.... because of the manufacturing equipment, they have to use a higher gluten content to withstand the abuse then have to resort to a dough relaxant to managing later.... manufacturing issues not applicable to an artisan ( although i do not like the use of the term as it too often is just an excuse for being an apprentice ), of home cook.   If you feel you need a dough relaxant then i think you are using "hard medecine" for something a flaw in the recipe.

So what recipe would you suggest for pizza dough that turns out beautifully but doesn't fight back when you roll it out? 

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2 hours ago, ChezAndré said:

Another thing i would like to see in MB, is a study of mixing yeast and baking powder... i see various recipes doing it, but at times i feel like the two do not cohabit well and i feel that the sum of the two is much less than hoped for.

Do you have the books by the way? 

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As i mentioned, the pizza dough from the CIA is pretty good... with a blend of bread flour and all purpose flour (  200g BF, 264g APF, 82g semolina)  338g water, 1 1/2tsp yeast; 3 tbsp oil and 1 1/2tsp salt added after full hydration.    Oven 550F on 1/2" baking steel.

 

I do think that most issues around feeling the need to use a dough relaxant is due to the flour user is too strong for the purpose.

Yes i have the books and many many more including the book from Calvel - Le gout du pain.


Edited by ChezAndré (log)

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7 hours ago, ChezAndré said:

In the pizza dough above... modified cornstarch... i associate its use as having a better freezer (frost-defrost) handling... to add it to my pizza dough, i would want to see some research underlying that..  as a dough relaxant?... if i can't toss it up in the air that is not good..... The modification is done with a specific purpose in mind, to solve a technical baking issue ( such a the cornstarch weeping when defrosting), different manufacturers of "modified cornstarch" are not necessarily interchangeable.    

I still like the CIA pizza dough with their addition of semolina (and i use a mix of bread and all purpose flour)... the only place where i use only bread flour is for my bagels.   And my sandwich bread, hamburger and subs buns, i use all purpose flour and pastry flour...   

 

The modified cornstarch is the carrier for the bromelin - half a gram in the 1 kg batch. It has no function other than carrier for the evil dough relaxant. I have no interest in throwing pizza dough.

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Have you tried diastatic  malt ( powder or syrup) to hasten the conversion of the starch into sugars? Using a small portion yesterday's dough, as was commonly done before achieve a similar result as well as improving the flavour.

And i will keep the bromelain for the meat.

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24 minutes ago, ChezAndré said:

Have you tried diastatic  malt ( powder or syrup) to hasten the conversion of the starch into sugars? Using a small portion yesterday's dough, as was commonly done before achieve a similar result as well as improving the flavour.

And i will keep the bromelain for the meat.

Have you read the pizza recipe? Poolish, malt.

 

Don't care for meat tenderized that way. Sous vide does that beautifully.

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I will also point out that under France law, the additives allowed for the bread composition are: 

1. malt and amylases fongiques; 

2. bean flour

3. soy lecithine

4. ascorbic acid

5. soy flour.

that is it, except for rye bread where citric acid is also allowed. 

source:  Le livre du boulanger by Jean-Yves Guinard et Pierre Lesjean. 

 

PS: No i did not read the recipe (i already have a good one); and the sous-vide per se does not tenderize the meat. 

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2 minutes ago, ChezAndré said:

I will also point out that under France law, the additives allowed for the bread composition are: 

1. malt and amylases fongiques; 

2. bean flour

3. soy lecithine

4. ascorbic acid

5. soy flour.

that is it, except for rye bread where citric acid is also allowed. 

source:  Le livre du boulanger by Jean-Yves Guinard et Pierre Lesjean. 

 

PS: No i did not read the recipe (i already have a good one); and the sous-vide per se does not tenderize the meat. 

Perhaps we could return this thread to 'Baking with...' - feel free to move opinions and questions over to this thread to allow those of us baking from the book to continue baking.

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Thank you for pointing it out... i accessed this forum / thread from a link from the support person at Modernist Cuisine regarding my inquiry for existing forum where the Modernist Bread issues could be exchanged.... and i will explore other threads in the near future...  :)   maybe i will find a thread about my thermomix too...

 

Thank you!  ;)    allways more to learn!


Edited by ChezAndré (log)
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35 minutes ago, ChezAndré said:

Thank you for pointing it out... i accessed this forum / thread from a link from the support person at Modernist Cuisine regarding my inquiry for existing forum where the Modernist Bread issues could be exchanged.... and i will explore other threads in the near future...  :)   maybe i will find a thread about my thermomix too...

 

Thank you!  ;)    allways more to learn!

 

There are several Thermomix threads - search Google with 'thermomix egullet' - they will pop up.

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""   sous-vide per se does not tenderize the meat.  ""

 

strictly this is true.  heat tenderizes meat

 

but the term  SV implies a cooking technique 

 

i.e. the application of heat.

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