Jump to content
  • Welcome to the eG Forums, a service of the eGullet Society for Culinary Arts & Letters. The Society is a 501(c)3 not-for-profit organization dedicated to the advancement of the culinary arts. These advertising-free forums are provided free of charge through donations from Society members. Anyone may read the forums, but to post you must create an account.

Raamo

Baking with Myhrvold's "Modernist Bread: The Art and Science"

Recommended Posts

5 hours ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

"There are distractions that can tug at you during every step of bread making.  Mistakes can happen anytime to anyone, including the common misstep of mixing up the weight of the flour and the water,* which results in more of a batter than a dough."

 

 

*I have done this.

 

 And I can certainly see that happening. But I’m not buying into it for the two loaves that I found out of balance. I will make them again and if I feel the need to confess I will do so. xD

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Id like to try that vacuum thing-y.

 

my copy has not arrived

 

I bet the sealing is to lee[ the dough moist

 

do you let it rise in the bag ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, rotuts said:

Id like to try that vacuum thing-y.

 

my copy has not arrived

 

I bet the sealing is to lee[ the dough moist

 

do you let it rise in the bag ?

 You do not let it rise in the bag but you do let it autolyse for 30 minutes.  So I would assume that sealing the bag prevents the dough from drying out for this 30 minutes. Also they note that you can use either a chamber vac or a food saver type machine.  With the latter you must seal to get a vacuum.  They said there was little difference between the two machines in terms of the final product.

 

 So the steps are

 

 Dissolve the yeast in 95% of the water or if using a preferment dissolve that in the water. Combine with the flour. Mix the two together until you reach the shaggy dough stage. 

 

 Put into vacuum bag (or if there’s too much into a lightly oiled tub or bowl that will fit into the chamber vac (or use a food saver container)

 

 Vacuum using the full power of your machine. 

 

Then you autolyse for 30 minutes before removing the dough and continuing with the recipe. 

 

 Hope this helps. 


Edited by Anna N (log)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My copy arrived yesterday - This is a crazy weekend for me (aka not much reading time) - but wow just wow at the details in this book.

 

We still have a bit of the artisan bread in 5 mins a day dough in the fridge - that'll get baked up to day and then I'm going to likely go a little nuts.  It's nice they have a replacement daily bread :)

I need to order a few things though, I have vital wheat gluten already from the MC noodles.

 

Is there a list of not normally sourced at the local supermarket ingredients most commonly used in this book that one should order to make the modernist versions of different things?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Raamo said:

My copy arrived yesterday - This is a crazy weekend for me (aka not much reading time) - but wow just wow at the details in this book.

 

We still have a bit of the artisan bread in 5 mins a day dough in the fridge - that'll get baked up to day and then I'm going to likely go a little nuts.  It's nice they have a replacement daily bread :)

I need to order a few things though, I have vital wheat gluten already from the MC noodles.

 

Is there a list of not normally sourced at the local supermarket ingredients most commonly used in this book that one should order to make the modernist versions of different things?

There sort of is — meaning  you will likely need to refer to more than one page and probably more than one volume. The thing you need to think about though is that some ingredients are used for only a single bread and if you’re not going to ever make that bread then there’s no point in purchasing whatever additive it is. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

3-108 describes the technique of mixing by pulling a vacuum on the dough.  I would like to try it.  The procedure calls for sealing the bag.  But I don't see the point of this.  What is the benefit of sealing the bag?  Is it to keep the dough surface from drying?

 

I ignored the part about sealing the bag. I ran the vacuum cycle five times, then took the dough out of the bag. It was done.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm definitely going to have to try the vacuum mixing method...and see what bowls I own that will fit in my chamber sealer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, MelissaH said:

I'm definitely going to have to try the vacuum mixing method...and see what bowls I own that will fit in my chamber sealer.

Just to be clear the vacuum is used to autolyze the flour and water (and yeast) not to mix the dough. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, Chris Hennes said:

It was done.

Done?  I am assuming you mean the autolyse phase was done.  Please correct me if you mean something different. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

do they explain how lowering the pressure considerably for such a relatively short time

 

accomplishes this ?

 

I can understand , in a theoretical way , how a vacuum , when released might speed up pickling 

 

i.e.  the pickling solution then enters the cucumber etc when the pressure returns  ....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, rotuts said:

do they explain how lowering the pressure considerably for such a relatively short time

 

accomplishes this ?

 

I can understand , in a theoretical way , how a vacuum , when released might speed up pickling 

 

i.e.  the pickling solution then enters the cucumber etc when the pressure returns  ....

 I wasn’t able to find very much on how it works but I believe you are on the right track. 

There are a number of cautions about using this method which is not necessarily good for all dough types. The book claims it works well for lean, whole wheat  and pizza doughs. 

They also point out that not everyone agrees that an autolyse is a necessary step. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

WARNING!  Long and potentially boring post. 

 

431533F0-EE51-47AB-92BC-827929DFA4A0.thumb.jpeg.90bb99d21ef39a438efffd901877db29.jpegBD3B365E-DE42-42B2-8119-BBFD21310F4E.thumb.jpeg.7bd9411c7e465a6041e10554469c23ea.jpeg

 

 Yes. I know. I promised more sandwich bread. These are obviously not sandwich bread. They are not quite so obviously not   Baguettes.

 

 Amazon delivered a new toy yesterday and just like a child I had to play with it today. It was a couche hence the attempt at the baguettes. 

 

This is the lean French dough using the direct method.  Since the recipe is barely an outline but refers one to the original recipe, I sat down and wrote out step-by-step what needed to be done.

 

First of all I must say that the liquid/dry ratio seemed to be pretty much as it should be leading me to think that @JoNorvelleWalker might have been right when she suggested that I had earlier confused the water and flour amounts. I’m still not convinced of this and it was definitely a new batch of flour that arrived yesterday.  Be that as it may. 

 

Things moved along just fine until it came to couching the pre-shaped baguettes. They stuck. You cannot believe how much they stuck. I thought I had done a darn good job of preparing the couche by rubbing in flour but apparently I had failed.  Failed quite miserably in fact. 

 

 The first photo shows a “baguette” that I wrestled off the couche and reformed almost from the start. It is short and fat and not a bit like a baguette and although I scored it, the scores are not visible. 

 

Now came the fun part.  Using a hotel pan as a lid means ensuring that your shaped dough is shorter than the longest side of your hotel pan. But it makes baking more than one at a time rather impractical. So this little runt went into the oven alone and I carefully placed the (unheated) hotel pan over it. All seemed good. I set the timer for 20 minutes and poured myself a drink.  Now, now don’t get any ideas — it was tonic water over ice. 

 

When the timer was up I approached the oven with confidence  and two thick side towels.  Gingerly I tried to lift the hotel pan. Yeow!  Dropped it fast. Steam burns on one hand.

 

 Approached it again much more gingerly this time. Managed to nudge it so one edge was just over the outer edge of the pizza stone thus  giving me a point of purchase.  I wrestled it off, nudged the loaf back on the pizza stone, and then desperately searched for a landing spot for a screaming hot hotel pan. Heat burns on the other hand. (The same hand that has two paper cuts from Volume 5). 

 

 Gave the little runt another five minutes without its lid before removing it and preparing to bake the other two deformed baguettes. I had wrestled them off the couche but made no real attempt to reshape them as I had done with the first one. 

 

 I knew damn well I was not going to repeat the disaster with a hotel pan. These two would I have to undergo a non-modernist type bake. 

 

I arranged them on parchment paper on a pizza peel, slid them directly onto the stone and threw a good two handfuls of ice into the bottom of the oven.

 

They rose beautifully. They have a gorgeous crust that sang to me and any improvement that might’ve been had by using a lid could never make up for the frustration and the burns. I’m very happy with this result. 

 

I did remember to slash both of them but obviously need practice in that regard. I need to re-flour my couche and probably be much more generous with the flour before I put the dough on it. 

 

And now before I add a fall to all my other injuries I need to vacuum up the flour that has made my tile floor into a skating rink. 

 

Perhaps this time I will add something else to my tonic water. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  • Like 7
  • Thanks 1
  • Haha 1
  • Confused 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Anna N said:

Just to be clear the vacuum is used to autolyze the flour and water (and yeast) not to mix the dough. 

 

I may be wrong, but the heading of page 3-108 reads: "How to Perform an Autolyse (and Mix) by Pulling a Vacuum on the Dough".  And in step 6, removing the dough from the bag, they say:  "The gluten is now practically developed."

 

The last step is stirring in the salt.

 

 

Edit:  I'd be inclined to add the salt initially along with the yeast and such.  Then after initial mixing divide the dough in half and bag each separately.  Vacuum each bag and retard one in the refrigerator while continuing to ferment the second.

 


Edited by JoNorvelleWalker Brilliant Insight (log)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

 

I may be wrong, but the heading of page 3-108 reads: "How to Perform an Autolyse (and Mix) by Pulling a Vacuum on the Dough".  And in step 6, removing the dough from the bag, they say:  "The gluten is now practically developed."

 

The last step is stirring in the salt.

 

Let me check once more!   Yes it does say that — sort of. It’s rather confusing because after you’ve pulled a vacuum you add the salt and then return it to the mixer and mix for 1 to 2 more minutes.  So I’m not sure how it can be ready right out of the vacuum bag. But earlier they do suggest that pulling a vacuum is the equivalent to reaching medium gluten development which is impressive. 

 

 I am going to quote one piece directly: 

 

 The vacuum forces water into the flour so effectively that it will generally, under our recommended timetables, produce a dough as if it had been mixed to medium gluten development. [my bolding]. 

 

 Have you found any such timetables? The only time I’ve seen is to leave it in the vacuum bag for 30 minutes.

 

 Will certainly have to try this method. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

07791B5A-E5D1-44D9-BD9C-062FDF629EE4.thumb.jpeg.8cffa98df1bf19f1a515ebd585a66e97.jpeg

 

 Baguette crumb using the direct method lean French dough. 

  • Like 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Anna N said:

07791B5A-E5D1-44D9-BD9C-062FDF629EE4.thumb.jpeg.8cffa98df1bf19f1a515ebd585a66e97.jpeg

 

 Baguette crumb using the direct method lean French dough. 

Looks really good. I should get my books tomorrow or Tuesday and can’t wait to get stuck in. Although a diet of mostly bread won’t be so good...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, Anna N said:

07791B5A-E5D1-44D9-BD9C-062FDF629EE4.thumb.jpeg.8cffa98df1bf19f1a515ebd585a66e97.jpeg

 

 Baguette crumb using the direct method lean French dough. 

 

Oooh, nice!  I'll be right over! 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Anna N said:

07791B5A-E5D1-44D9-BD9C-062FDF629EE4.thumb.jpeg.8cffa98df1bf19f1a515ebd585a66e97.jpeg

 

 Baguette crumb using the direct method lean French dough. 

 

That's beautiful, Anna!

 

By the way, are you eating all this bread?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

 

That's beautiful, Anna!

 

By the way, are you eating all this bread?

 

Why thank you.  Don’t I wish I could eat it all. I am wrapping most of it very well and tossing it into the freezer in the basement and hoping my cleaning lady will walk off with most of it. She cleaned out my freezer of everything at my request because I was afraid that if it ever gave out I would be stuck with a freezer full of  thawed meat.  It has been sitting empty for some time but I figure if the only thing in there is bread and it goes belly up it’s not going to be a huge deal. 

 Edited to add

Likely will not be baking much this week. Seem to have an appointment every damn day and all of them smack bang in the middle of the day. 


Edited by Anna N (log)
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Anna N said:

Done?  I am assuming you mean the autolyse phase was done.  Please correct me if you mean something different. 

Done as in the gluten was fully developed. It passed the windowpane test.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Chris Hennes said:

Done as in the gluten was fully developed. It passed the windowpane test.

Thanks. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anna,  for dusting your couche,  rice flour works great because it doesn't allow the dough to stick as much.  Regular flour plus a moist dough can lead to sticking.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Barrytm said:

Anna,  for dusting your couche,  rice flour works great because it doesn't allow the dough to stick as much.  Regular flour plus a moist dough can lead to sticking.   

Thanks. I used a combination of flour and rice flour as recommended by various “experts”. I think Modernist Bread recommends that combination for bench flour also.  Might try just rice flour for my next use. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So many things in these books require levain.... so I started one - it's cold her so we'll see how well it works, on top of the fridge.

 

I'm going to make some more french lean bread for now while I wait for the wild yeast to do it's thing.  I manged to find a number of items on amazon, seems Modernist Pantry needs to get a copy of this book - they had only one thing.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Similar Content

    • By TdeV
      I'm thinking that one isn't supposed to add salt to meat which is about to be sous-vided. I have no idea from whence the idea came, nor whether it's correct.
       
      Also I'm thinking that raw onion is ok in the sous vide bag, but not raw garlic (because it imparts a harsh flavour).
       
      Either of these impressions have value?
    • By Fabio
      Last year I had dinner at Belcanto in Lisbon and one of the dishes featured a "tomato water snow" or "tomato water cloud" (translated from the original Portuguese: "Nuvem/neve de agua de tomate") that I'm trying to replicate without success. Imagine a thick and solid foam of tomato water that immediately liquefies when you put in your mouth. The cloud was atop smoked fish and olive oil was drizzled over it.
       
      I whipped a mixture of tomato water and albumin powder (2 tsp albumin, 2tbsp tomato water) along with a pinch of cream of tartar, getting to the stiff peaks point after some effort. Trying to dehidrate the foam even as low as 150F didn't work; the foam collapsed. I then tried the savory meringue approach with some sugar and salt. The result was indeed a meringue that tasted like tomato but completely different from what I had at Belcanto. What am I missing? I've attached a photo of the dish so you can see what the cloud looks like.
       
      Thanks!
       

    • By johnathanlee
      Recently I had the unforgettable experience of dining at Andoni Luis Adurizis’s restaurant, Mugaritz and had to buy one of his cookbooks, "Mugaritz".  One of his many innovative recipes is “Edible Stones”.  This makes use of kaolin, an edible clay sometimes sold as “Agalita”.  A slurry is made using Agalita and Lactose to which is added food colouring.  Boiled baby potatoes are skewered, dipped, and allowed to dry in the oven.  They are served with real rocks to maximize what has been described as the culinary equivalent of  trompe-l'œil. Guests of course are not to see the process or the skewered potatoes drying so as not to ruin the surprise. I have attached some pictures showing my results which, although visually not exactly like the real stones, were texturally and by weight,  reasonably convincing. 
       
      Now that I have served them at a dinner party, I am left with a large amount of Agalita!  I am hoping there are some modernist chefs out there with more ideas for my remaining Kaolin.
       
       




       
    • By pastrygirl
      If so, what was it like?  Sounds similar to kouign-aman ... https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-44486529
       
       
    • By highchef
      we're all used to the Wednesday/Sunday food sections of newspapers far and wide, national and local. I see corrections in the local or regional columns when called for, but there's never a way to critique the ones published on a national scale because the content is behind a paywall. I get the WSJ, but don't want to pay additional (I should get access to it all on line for free-the newspaper is not cheap) for their online edition. Very frustrating to try a recipe and have major problems with it and not be able to point out some serious issues. Specifically, the WSJ published a recipe from Dee Retalli, a pastry chef in London who's recipe is in the cookbook 'Rustic' by Jorge Fernandez and Rich Wells. 
      I have made this cake 3 times.
      First time was a total runover disaster, which I should have foreseen. This cakes calls for a 10" springform or if you don't have that, a 10" cast iron skillet. I went for the latter because that is what I had. Almond mixtures tend to really smoke when they run over, just so you know.
      Tried again later with a deeper than normal 9 " springform. Happened again. Think it has to do with the 2 teaspoons of baking powder and quick activation in a 350º oven.
      Invested in a 10" springform for '3rd times a charm' try. I was successful, but not because I followed the directions, rather I became a little obsessed with making this work. Checked my oven, followed with the recipe and eyed it warily. It came up to the brim...and stayed. 45 minutes later it was supposed to be done but while it was beautiful, it was a bowl of jello in the center. It was also browning at an alarming rate- the almond flour again? So I placed a sheet of tinfoil over it (beautiful top crust) and turned the oven down to 325º and carefully watched and tested for almost another hour. That's a big time difference. 
      I found the recipe on cooked.com - credited to the above authors and cookbook albeit in Euro style measures and temps. All seems the same, so what are the odds that the recipe was misprinted twice from 2 different media?
      All I can think of is somewhere down the line (in the cookbook itself?) the cook time and temp were off. The time on both reads 45 min. The recipe took at least 1hr and 45 minutes. methinks someone left out the hour...
      The temp. thing is a little more obvious. Celcius to farenheight 350ºF does not equal 180ºC, more like 176ºC. Over almost 2 hours, I think that could make the difference between cooked and burnt? Sooo, I turned it down when I saw how fast it was browning to 325.
      The cake stays in form while you pour the honey over it, then orange water, then 2(!!!) cups of sliced toasted almonds. I put 1 cup and there is no way another cup would have stayed on that cake. I cup settled up to almost an inch on a 10" cake...
      Has anyone else tried this recipe or have the cookbook? It's a wonderful cake if you correct the time and temp., But I'd be really curious to see if anyone followed it exactly as written with success?
       
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×