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Chris Hennes

Modernist Bread: French Lean Bread (MB Contest Topic #1)

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The book has a nice bit of information on low-temperature proofing, but unfortunately they report that this particular type of bread doesn't do well with more than 5-6 hours of cold-proofing time for the larger loaf sizes (and only 2-3 hours for baguettes and rolls!). How long did you have to hold it?


Chris Hennes
Director of Operations
chennes@egullet.org

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I put 1/2 the dough in the fridge overnight - is that going to mess it up?  I can warm proof it in the morning.

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Well, it’s going to be over-proofed right out of the fridge basically for sure (though I guess test it anyway, who knows). But the good news is that one of the most useful tests they did for the books was to see how many times you could overproof and then re-fold and proof again. The answer was something like ten times! So if it is overproofed in the morning I’d give it a four-edge fold, wait a half hour, then shape and proof again.

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Chris Hennes
Director of Operations
chennes@egullet.org

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18 hours ago, Raamo said:

First attempt is done, turns out my oven self vents so when it came time to vent there wasn't much steam left, I ended up baking until it was over 190 inside - hit about 200, all in less time then 30 mins total.

Likely because I can't control the speed of my fan - all in all it's dark but not burnt so I think it's OK.

 

FWIW, your "dark but not burnt" is my "exactly right" for this kind of bread. :)


"The only questions that really matter are the ones you ask yourself."

Ursula K. Le Guin

 

"Not knowing the scope of your own ignorance is part of the human condition...The first rule of the Dunning-Kruger club is you don’t know you’re a member of the Dunning-Kruger club.” - psychologist David Dunning

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Chris, thanks for the explanation as to the salt and water, I was confused by that as well.  I did have another question though.  Am I  reading the table correctly when it looks like it says that bulk ferment is 1 1/2 hours if mixed by machine, but 3 1/2 hours if mixed by hand?    Just surprised there would be that much of a difference.

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4 hours ago, Barrytm said:

Chris, thanks for the explanation as to the salt and water, I was confused by that as well.  I did have another question though.  Am I  reading the table correctly when it looks like it says that bulk ferment is 1 1/2 hours if mixed by machine, but 3 1/2 hours if mixed by hand?    Just surprised there would be that much of a difference.

 I am sure Chris will pop in here and give his explanation but in the meantime… According to MB what the mixer brings to the party is better incorporation of all the ingredients including water (which is essential to good gluten development) and also adds the element of friction which raises the temperature of the dough which reduces the ferment time.  Hope that is somewhat helpful. 


Anna Nielsen aka "Anna N"

...I just let people know about something I made for supper that they might enjoy, too. That's all it is. (Nigel Slater)

"Cooking is about doing the best with what you have . . . and succeeding." John Thorne

Our 2012 (Kerry Beal and me) Blog

My 2004 eG Blog

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6 hours ago, Barrytm said:

Chris, thanks for the explanation as to the salt and water, I was confused by that as well.  I did have another question though.  Am I  reading the table correctly when it looks like it says that bulk ferment is 1 1/2 hours if mixed by machine, but 3 1/2 hours if mixed by hand?    Just surprised there would be that much of a difference.

As @Anna N says, the times you see are correct. The mixer is giving the gluten a head start that mixing by hand does not. I've made this bread both ways, but without a side-by-side comparison I couldn't express a preference for one over the other except to say that making bread completely by hand is very satisfying. I didn't even use a spoon. After scaling the ingredients I did the mixing literally by hand, on the counter. No centrifuge or anything! Then you just fold it every thirty minutes until it passes the window-pane test. Shape, proof, and bake.

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Chris Hennes
Director of Operations
chennes@egullet.org

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Enjoyed the bake; should have let final proof continue longer. Had not previously used dissolved salt. I was (and still am) confused about "vent" process following initial bake with steam.

 

IMG_7802.JPG

IMG_7803.JPG

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16 minutes ago, Michael-hb said:

 I was (and still am) confused about "vent" process following initial bake with steam.

 

What was your method of cooking?  Basically the vent is to remove steam from the chamber.

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4 hours ago, Chris Hennes said:

No centrifuge or anything! 

 

What sort of bread are you making in a centrifuge :D

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Chris and Anna, thanks for the explanation.  I wondered whether friction would have some impact on final dough temp, but didn't think it could shave the bulk ferment by that much.    I will be posting my bread photo this weekend.  

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I'd never made bread dough in a planetary mixer.  I assume that is the kind of mixer they had in mind.

 

ShaggyMass11102017.png

 

Guess this must be a shaggy mass.  Why weigh salt to a hundredth of a gram when you can't get all of it into the mixing bowl?  I stopped the mixing after two minutes as the dough temperature had reached 77 deg F.

 

 

Boule11102017.png

 

Finished boule baked in the CSO.  CSO only goes up to 450 deg F.  And the CSO overbrowned the top.

 

 

Crumb11102017.png

 

Crumb was not as open as I would have liked.  I knew something was not quite right when after an hour's final rise I poked the proofed boule and my finger stuck.

 

No complaints about the taste.  This is good bread.

 

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Maybe it's because much of my career has been as a programmer but the machine recipe as stated never has you add the flour or poolish.

 

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1 hour ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

Maybe it's because much of my career has been as a programmer but the machine recipe as stated never has you add the flour or poolish.

 

Hmmm.  I am seeing “add 3” where 3 is the flour and the poolish. 


Anna Nielsen aka "Anna N"

...I just let people know about something I made for supper that they might enjoy, too. That's all it is. (Nigel Slater)

"Cooking is about doing the best with what you have . . . and succeeding." John Thorne

Our 2012 (Kerry Beal and me) Blog

My 2004 eG Blog

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43 minutes ago, Anna N said:

Hmmm.  I am seeing “add 3” where 3 is the flour and the poolish. 

It may be in your book, but the "3" didn't make its way into the machine mixing instruction that Chris posted here.  

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20 minutes ago, blue_dolphin said:

It may be in your book, but the "3" didn't make its way into the machine mixing instruction that Chris posted here.  

 You are right. I was reading the hand mixing on the recipe that Chris posted.  Now I look back I see that it is not in the machine instructions. Yes, certainly is in the book.  Apologies. 


Anna Nielsen aka "Anna N"

...I just let people know about something I made for supper that they might enjoy, too. That's all it is. (Nigel Slater)

"Cooking is about doing the best with what you have . . . and succeeding." John Thorne

Our 2012 (Kerry Beal and me) Blog

My 2004 eG Blog

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1 minute ago, Anna N said:

 You are right. I was reading the hand mixing on the recipe that Chris posted.  Now I look back I see that it is not in the machine instructions. Yes, certainly is in the book.  Apologies. 

No need to apologize.  I'm glad you posted as I wasn't sure if it was an error in the book (which would have been disturbing) or just a glitch in porting it over into that post. 

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15 minutes ago, blue_dolphin said:

No need to apologize.  I'm glad you posted as I wasn't sure if it was an error in the book (which would have been disturbing) or just a glitch in porting it over into that post. 

 I think Chris and Dave are working from a electronic copy. 


Anna Nielsen aka "Anna N"

...I just let people know about something I made for supper that they might enjoy, too. That's all it is. (Nigel Slater)

"Cooking is about doing the best with what you have . . . and succeeding." John Thorne

Our 2012 (Kerry Beal and me) Blog

My 2004 eG Blog

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Hi folks,

 

I'm going to tackle this over the weekend, but will probably make the poolish this evening. Just so I'm sure - it's 0.16g of yeast? Doesn't sound like very much.


Thanks,

 

Eric

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1 hour ago, Eric Srikandan said:

Hi folks,

 

I'm going to tackle this over the weekend, but will probably make the poolish this evening. Just so I'm sure - it's 0.16g of yeast? Doesn't sound like very much.


Thanks,

 

Eric

 

Yup that's right - it's not much - but it does the job- this is ~15 hours later:  it's not as obvious in the picture but the yeast defiantly had fun!

 

20171106_184206.thumb.jpg.834ae8fd588d249131a257fc95b23c87.jpg


Edited by Raamo added picture (log)

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1 hour ago, Raamo said:

 

Yup that's right - it's not much - but it does the job- this is ~15 hours later:  it's not as obvious in the picture but the yeast defiantly had fun!

 

 

 

 

Good to know. Thanks for that.

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 Curious to know if anyone is running into issues with the ratio of water to flour. I always expect to make some adjustments but I’m finding the doughs I have tried so far are much more like batters until I add considerably more flour.  I am weighing my ingredients in grams so there shouldn’t be such a large disparity I would think. 

 

I have made a note to myself in future to hold back a good portion of the water.


Anna Nielsen aka "Anna N"

...I just let people know about something I made for supper that they might enjoy, too. That's all it is. (Nigel Slater)

"Cooking is about doing the best with what you have . . . and succeeding." John Thorne

Our 2012 (Kerry Beal and me) Blog

My 2004 eG Blog

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5 minutes ago, Anna N said:

 Curious to know if anyone is running into issues with the ratio of water to flour. I always expect to make some adjustments but I’m finding the doughs I have tried so far are much more like batters until I add considerably more flour.  I am weighing my ingredients in grams so there shouldn’t be such a large disparity I would think. 

 

I have made a note to myself in future to hold back a good portion of the water.

 

Did you have the issue with the french lean bread?  I also measured in grams and had no issues - the dough was a bit sticky so to help in folding I added small amount of flour to coat - but humidity does play some factor in this I bet.  And this is the consistency I'm used to working with for dough from ATK and AB in 5M


Edited by Raamo (log)

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On 11/9/2017 at 10:37 AM, Raamo said:

 

What was your method of cooking?  Basically the vent is to remove steam from the chamber.

 Household oven, stet to 470F, Baking Steel. Water in heated cast iron fry pan for steam. For vent I just cracked open door. kept that way for remaining time.

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8 hours ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

I'd never made bread dough in a planetary mixer.  I assume that is the kind of mixer they had in mind.

 

ShaggyMass11102017.png

 

Guess this must be a shaggy mass.  Why weigh salt to a hundredth of a gram when you can't get all of it into the mixing bowl?  I stopped the mixing after two minutes as the dough temperature had reached 77 deg F.

 

 

This is what I expected a shaggy mass looks like - basically just barely incorporated.   Perhaps someone with the books can tell us if they detail what they expect a shaggy mass to be. 

 

From http://www.seriouseats.com/2014/09/breadmaking-101-how-to-mix-and-knead-dough-step-by-step.html

Once your flour and water are fully incorporated and there are no dry spots, stop and wait. Your dough should look loose and formless. This is known as the shaggy mass stage. 

 

20171107_111812.thumb.jpg.7ffc23de9528744b0c7ed787241a9317.jpg

 

I'm guessing you can't control the speed of the fan in your CSO?  My Thermadore Steam oven is the same way - but I didn't blacken the top quite as much, did you happen to check the internal temp of the bread when you pulled it out - might not have had to bake as long.

 

How did you do the proof step?   It's listed to be as short as 30 for just that reason.  I find if I do it in my steam oven on proof it doesn't take as long.


Edited by Raamo adding in serious eat definition of shaggy mass. (log)

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