Jump to content
  • Welcome to the eG Forums, a service of the eGullet Society for Culinary Arts & Letters. The Society is a 501(c)3 not-for-profit organization dedicated to the advancement of the culinary arts. These advertising-free forums are provided free of charge through donations from Society members. Anyone may read the forums, but to post you must create an account.

Chris Hennes

Modernist Bread: French Lean Bread (MB Contest Topic #1)

Recommended Posts

2 minutes ago, Michael-hb said:

 Household oven, stet to 470F, Baking Steel. Water in heated cast iron fry pan for steam. For vent I just cracked open door. kept that way for remaining time.

 

Hmm the goal is to get the steam out - is there still water in your fry pan when it is time to vent the steam out did some of it actual boil?  Goal is to get steam in the oven - and then vent it all out.  You won't want to leave the door open as that will affect the temperature.  One recommendation I found was to preheat a pan with the oven with the pan empty and then toss in a small amount of water or some ice cubes, this will quickly become steam.  It should all boil of quickly since the pot is 470F.

 

The way my steam oven works is there's a spot at the bottom where water is added (from a side tank) and an element is under it - this element heats the water up when steam is desired.  When I turned off steam and was only running on convection that water was not longer boiling.  And since the oven works by convection the heat is coming from the back and not the top or bottom of the oven.  We bake bread nearly daily in our steam oven and have so for 3 years.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Raamo said:

 

Did you have the issue with the french lean bread?  I also measured in grams and had no issues - the dough was a bit sticky so to help in folding I added small amount of flour to coat - but humidity does play some factor in this I bet.  And this is the consistency I'm used to working with for dough from ATK and AB in 5M

 

 No not nearly so much with the French lean bread but like you I added flour to helps shape it properly.

I am accustomed to working with very wet doughs but the last two recipes have given me something very different than what I’m accustomed to.  I dumped the pain de mie out onto the bench and hand kneaded it.   Even after adding flour during the mixing stage I was forced to add even more as I kneaded it to make it even reasonably capable of being shaped and handled.

 

I do know that humidity plays a  role but I can assure you I am living in a very dry atmosphere given that it is below zero outside and my forced air gas furnace is in full operation. xD  Even I am dehydrated. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Anna N said:

 No not nearly so much with the French lean bread but like you I added flour to helps shape it properly.

I am accustomed to working with very wet doughs but the last two recipes have given me something very different than what I’m accustomed to.  I dumped the pain de mie out onto the bench and hand kneaded it.   Even after adding flour during the mixing stage I was forced to add even more as I kneaded it to make it even reasonably capable of being shaped and handled.

 

I do know that humidity plays a  role but I can assure you I am living in a very dry atmosphere given that it is below zero outside and my forced air gas furnace is in full operation. xD  Even I am dehydrated. 

 

Grr why don't I have my books yet.  It's well below 0C here as well - but we keep the house humidified.  We are used to very wet dough since that's one of the keys behind AB in 5 mins a day.  Anyway back to the topic - we've found with other high end cookbooks that they sometimes require some adjustment - I was hoping MB would be more precise.  But there will be a Corrections and Clarifications page - alas it doesn't seem to be up yet...  

 

Are we talking about off by a cup or more  - or is this enough to be a factor of flour conditions?  I've made plenty of bread in the past where I had to add more flour then it called for.    What are the recipes pain de mie and _________?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
59 minutes ago, Raamo said:

 

Grr why don't I have my books yet.  It's well below 0C here as well - but we keep the house humidified.  We are used to very wet dough since that's one of the keys behind AB in 5 mins a day.  Anyway back to the topic - we've found with other high end cookbooks that they sometimes require some adjustment - I was hoping MB would be more precise.  But there will be a Corrections and Clarifications page - alas it doesn't seem to be up yet...  

 

Are we talking about off by a cup or more  - or is this enough to be a factor of flour conditions?  I've made plenty of bread in the past where I had to add more flour then it called for.    What are the recipes pain de mie and _________?

 More than half a cup. And I’m not for a minute suggesting that the recipes are at fault. They’re using a very different flour  and probably a very different atmosphere.

 

Don’t think it would be too wise to post recipes. And while I know that ingredient lists cannot usually be copyrighted,  I am loath to risk any infringements. 


Edited by Anna N (log)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Anna N said:

 More than half a cup. And I’m not for a minute suggesting that the recipes are at fault. They’re using a very different flour  and probably a very different atmosphere.

 

Don’t think it would be too wise to post recipes. And while I know that ingredient lists cannot usually be copyrighted,  I am loath to risk any infringements. 

 

 

I just wanted to know the other recipe you had issues with - I'll have my books on Monday.   I'd never heard of pain de mie but it seems like one I'd want to make myself.  No need to post recipes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Raamo said:

 

I just wanted to know the other recipe you had issues with - I'll have my books on Monday.   I'd never heard of pain de mie but it seems like one I'd want to make myself.  No need to post recipes.

 Sorry I just misunderstood you.  Pain de mie Is a white sandwich bread made in a pullman pan.  I had to adjust the recipe considerably because it calls for the larger pan and I only had to smaller. 

 I wish your books would arrive so you could enjoy them!   No idea how we Canadians got so lucky. 

 

 Edited to add

 

the other and final recipe that I’ve made and had trouble with is the direct country loaf.  Direct means it just uses yeast and not pre-ferment. It has bread flour, dark rye flour, whole wheat flour and some asorbic acid and the one ingredient I didn’t use because I didn’t have it is the diastic malt.  Was such a sticky dough that I could not begin to handle it without adding much more flour. My final dough weight was 1180 g. 


Edited by Anna N (log)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My first attempts at the French Lean Bread. I thought it would be quite similar to the Ken Forkish white bread with poolish recipe, but the results are significantly different. The hydration in the Forkish recipe is slightly higher, but since it calls for all-purpose unbleached flour, it's much more slack than this recipe. The crumb is OK, but not great. It might help if I had the book to guide me with more detailed instructions.

DSC07260.thumb.jpg.56253df6c8afae48a82b3005b496f889.jpgDSC07259.thumb.jpg.2c25d3cc79af42d71f841ec4169f7427.jpg

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I gave the recipe a try today. The poolish was fermented for close to 10h only. Flour was 90% strong wheat and 10% rye flour (type 1050) for a slightly more robust flavour. To accommodate for the rye I upped the hydration to 70%. Bulk ferment w/ folding was done in 5h, proofing after shaping took about 2 h (my house is 26 oC, and 60% humidity - controlled by air con and dehumidifier).

Baked at 250 oC preheated oven in an equally preheated Le Creuset for 25 min, then for 15 min more without ("venting").

The resulting loaf is satisfactory. Decent oven spring, maybe a bit overproofed but definitely correct hydration. Taste is pretty good.

 

Fresh from the oven (please disregard the lousy slashing).

IMG_0268.thumb.JPG.37e04f0b8848408c8c1ede2d8e649767.JPG

 

Crumb shot.

IMG_0280.thumb.JPG.56a33853725b6c781c143d02febb8f17.JPG

 

The second half of the batch made a decent pizza dough.

IMG_0275.thumb.JPG.9288731e1ffa41b12f4412e6cc52fc05.JPG

 

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I made my attempt at the Lean French Bread in a combo cooker today, overall it came out well.    I followed the recipe as close as I could.  For mixing, I went with 6 minutes in a Bosch Compact.  It was somewhat sticky, but I mostly make high hydration whole wheat, so it was not too bad.  I used my proofer for the final proof and used the timing in the chart of 1 1/4   hour at 80 F,  and think it was slightly overproofed.   It sang after came out of the oven, I enjoyed the cracking noise, normally I don't get that with 100% whole wheat, and the flavor was fine for a lean bread with bread flour.  

modernist cuisine.jpg

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎11‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 12:59 AM, Duvel said:

The second half of the batch made a decent pizza dough.

IMG_0275.thumb.JPG.9288731e1ffa41b12f4412e6cc52fc05.JPG

 

 

 

I can't top @Duvel but I too made some of my leftover MB dough into pizza, pizza Margherita, baked on my new DeLonghi...

 

Slice11132017.png

 

 

Best pizza this old thing has made.  I detest fried pan pizza.  Detest I say, Kenji notwithstanding.  I couldn't quite achieve char on the upper crust but I got brown spots, and not a few black ones on the bottom!

 

Brings back primordial post war memories -- my first pizza, the most wonderful slightly underdone pizza on the Seaside boardwalk.  Back when basil did not exist.  Back when one wasn't sure the Neapolitans were friends or foes, the sunken tanker could still be seen off shore,  the arcades featured storm troopers, U-boats, and little yellow men in aeroplanes.  And if history is to be believed not a few of the patrons a few years before had been U-boat crews on R&R.

 

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

... the arcades featured storm troopers ...

Being the father of a four-year old I can assure you they still do. Sure, they now report back to the First Order rather than a German military organization, but rest assure they still would be delighted by your pizza. As would I (and being German is only part of it :D) ...

 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm a late starter, but having returned from a weekend away and with a spare day before I have to go and do more of that 'work' stuff, here we go.  Poolish started:

 

Poolish.png

 

More tomorrow.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, that was quite entertaining.  My usual bread is essentially the master recipe from Artisan Bread in 5 Minutes a Day with a few tweaks, and I've finally got it in the last month or so exactly where I want it.  The French Lean involves a lot more time but not really much more work; although my results weren't as pretty as some here the end product tastes great and I'll do it again.

 

Here are some progress shots.  First, the obligatory shaggy mass:

 

Shag.png

 

This is actually the second attempt, after I realised after 10 minutes or so I hadn't put the yeast/water mix in originally.  Some reading I did (not in MB) suggested autolysis is done just with flour and water - no yeast, certainly no salt.  Can somebody with the books comment on this vs. the instruction in this recipe to include the yeast?  Or did I misread something?

 

Here's the dough just before the final fold.  Looking good, I thought:

 

Risen.png

 

Slashed and ready for the oven.  Note to self: please remember cast iron lids remain VERY hot for a while after being removed from a 250°C oven (thanks, I'm fine):

 

Slash.png

 

And straight from the oven.  The one on the left was just done on an oven tray with hot water below; the other was in a large cast-iron casserole.  I think the casserole one has a better colour, but next time I need to work out a better way to get the boule into the casserole - this one folded a bit:

 

Out.png

 

And cut.  I'd like more rise and a more open crumb, but the crust is good and it tastes great:

 

Cut.png

 

 

Overall I'm happy, apart from the scorched finger, but there's room for improvement.

 

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks, Jo.  Yeah, that's what the recipe says - it just differed from the other explanation I read.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They've got a pretty good chunk of info in the books on the use of the term "autolyse" and how various references use it differently and assert different reasons for it. It's an interesting read. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

"Autolyse" grates my nerves used as a noun.  My bread undergoes autolysis.

 

You can’t stop the grammar train.  I’ve tried and have the bruises to show for it. xD

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
  • Haha 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Made the poolish overnight - took the ingredients to work today. Baked in the CSO at 450º F on the bread setting. Second loaf I shielded the top with foil - then switched over to convection 425º F for another 10 minutes or so.

 

IMG_7599.thumb.jpg.04d6605b487241da7bb99c4402a6bd2f.jpg

 

First loaf. A little underproofed. 

 

IMG_7597.thumb.jpg.b31849ceda83f347f62b0ff0add80e02.jpg

 

Crumb of first loaf.

 

IMG_7595.thumb.jpg.b8df99aeba6f28bb31e2069b160340e4.jpg

 

I was quite taken by the gelatinization on the surface of the loaf under the influence of steam. 

 

IMG_7592.thumb.jpg.6b13c9ccea9659036c27aeeb8e411615.jpg

 

Second loaf.

 

 

  • Like 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Kerry Beal said:

 

IMG_7595.thumb.jpg.b8df99aeba6f28bb31e2069b160340e4.jpg

 

I was quite taken by the gelatinization on the surface of the loaf under the influence of steam. 

 

 

 

 

Kerry, in the oven picture above, what is the dough resting on?  When I bake loaves in the CSO I use a thin sheet of Teflon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎11‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 2:23 PM, Raamo said:

How did you do the proof step?   It's listed to be as short as 30 for just that reason.  I find if I do it in my steam oven on proof it doesn't take as long.

 

Forgive me, I only just realized this was a question...as I recall I proofed for an hour and fifteen minutes at room temperature.  The CSO manual suggests steam proofing dough at 100 deg F.  for 30 minutes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

 

Kerry, in the oven picture above, what is the dough resting on?  When I bake loaves in the CSO I use a thin sheet of Teflon.

Anna gave me an aluminum grill plate from a retired griddler.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Kerry Beal 

 

would you provide more details on the CSO bread above ?

 

I do have MBr  and it looks like Ill be using that for a while w MBr

 

Im concerned on the optimal size of loafs in the CSO

 

thanks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, rotuts said:

@Kerry Beal 

 

would you provide more details on the CSO bread above ?

 

I do have MBr  and it looks like Ill be using that for a while w MBr

 

Im concerned on the optimal size of loafs in the CSO

 

thanks

I split the lean dough into 2 boules. Proof done at room temp under bowls.

 

CSO to bread baking at 450 F, 25 minutes. No preheat. First loaf was kind of dark. Second at 425 under foil after 10 min. After 25 minutes too light - so baked further 6 or 7 minutes at 400 F convection. Might try bread program 425 no foil next.

 

 


Edited by Kerry Beal (log)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Similar Content

    • By Fabio
      Last year I had dinner at Belcanto in Lisbon and one of the dishes featured a "tomato water snow" or "tomato water cloud" (translated from the original Portuguese: "Nuvem/neve de agua de tomate") that I'm trying to replicate without success. Imagine a thick and solid foam of tomato water that immediately liquefies when you put in your mouth. The cloud was atop smoked fish and olive oil was drizzled over it.
       
      I whipped a mixture of tomato water and albumin powder (2 tsp albumin, 2tbsp tomato water) along with a pinch of cream of tartar, getting to the stiff peaks point after some effort. Trying to dehidrate the foam even as low as 150F didn't work; the foam collapsed. I then tried the savory meringue approach with some sugar and salt. The result was indeed a meringue that tasted like tomato but completely different from what I had at Belcanto. What am I missing? I've attached a photo of the dish so you can see what the cloud looks like.
       
      Thanks!
       

    • By johnathanlee
      Recently I had the unforgettable experience of dining at Andoni Luis Adurizis’s restaurant, Mugaritz and had to buy one of his cookbooks, "Mugaritz".  One of his many innovative recipes is “Edible Stones”.  This makes use of kaolin, an edible clay sometimes sold as “Agalita”.  A slurry is made using Agalita and Lactose to which is added food colouring.  Boiled baby potatoes are skewered, dipped, and allowed to dry in the oven.  They are served with real rocks to maximize what has been described as the culinary equivalent of  trompe-l'œil. Guests of course are not to see the process or the skewered potatoes drying so as not to ruin the surprise. I have attached some pictures showing my results which, although visually not exactly like the real stones, were texturally and by weight,  reasonably convincing. 
       
      Now that I have served them at a dinner party, I am left with a large amount of Agalita!  I am hoping there are some modernist chefs out there with more ideas for my remaining Kaolin.
       
       




       
    • By pastrygirl
      If so, what was it like?  Sounds similar to kouign-aman ... https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-44486529
       
       
    • By ProfessionalHobbit
      I had completely forgotten about our dinner there in December. 
       
      Anyone who is a serious eater here on eGullet needs to come here soon. Highly recommended. @MetsFan5 - here is one place you might love over Gary Danko. You too @rancho_gordo.
       
      I'll let the pix speak for themselves...
       

       

       
      Horchata - Koshihikari rice, almonds, black cardamom, cinnamon.
       

       
      Scallop chicharrón, scallop ceviche, crème fraîche.
       

       
      Jicama empanada, shiso, pumpkin, salmon roe.
       

       
      Smoked mushroom taco with pickled wild mushrooms.
       

       
      Dungeness crab tostada, sour orange segments, sour orange-habanero salsa, Castelfranco radicchio, tarragon.
       

       
      Pineapple guava sorbet
       

       
      Fuyu persimmon, habanero honey, tarragon
       

       
      Tasmanian trout ceviche, dashi, Granny Smith apple
       

       
      Aguachile, parsnip, red bell pepper
       

       

       
      Black bean tamales steamed in banana leaves, with salsa on the side
       

       
      Smoked squab broth, pomegranate seeds, cilantro flowers
       

       
      Tres frijoles with sturgeon caviar, shallots and edible gold leaf
       

       
      Black cod, salsa verde, green grapes
       

       
      Wagyu beef, pickled onion
       

       

       
      Smoked squab breast served with spiced cranberry sauce, quince simmered in cranberry juice, pickled Japanese turnips and charred scallion, and sourdough flour tortillas
       
      Yes, it's the same squab from which the broth was made.
       

       

       

       
      And now the desserts:
       

       
      Foie gras churro, with foie gras mousse, cinnamon sugar, served with hot milk chocolate infused with cinnamon, Lustau sherry and coffee.
       
      By the time I remembered to take a pic, I'd eaten half of the churro. Dunk the churro into the chocolate.
       

       
      Dulce de leche spooned atop pear sorbet with chunks of Asian pear, macadamia nut butter
       

       
      Pecan ice cream, candied pecans, shortbread cookie, apples, clarified butter
       
      The cookie was on top of the apples. Break the cookie and spoon everything over.
       

       
      Cherry extract digestif, vermouth, sweet Mexican lime
       
      We'll definitely return. I'm an instant fan.
       
      Prepaid tix were $230 per person, plus there were additional charges due to wine pairings. It's worth every cent you'll spend.
       
      Californios
      3115 22nd Street (South Van Ness)
      Mission District
       
    • By benjamin163
      Hello,
      I love cooking my pulses and beans and have used a pressure cooker, slow cooker and top stove to do so.
      However, the results often vary due to my carelessness.
      I enjoy the results of sous vide and wonder whether cooking beans and pulses sous vide would make them deliciously tender without falling apart and going mushy.
      I have looked up a few recipes but the temperatures vary enormously.
      I'm wondering if there's a more scientific approach. Like, at what temperature do the walls of a pulse break down without breaking apart? 
      And does the amount of water the pulses are steeped in matter?
      I'm gathering that pre-soaking is no longer the necessity it once seemed.
      So I'd love an understanding of the optimum temperature to get fluffy, unctuous beans without the mush.
      Any help or opinions greatly received.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×