Knife techniques

[cutter]

been teaching my self cutting techniques and understand most cutting is suppose to be with a slicing motion (locomotion) and chopping isnt a good idea they say for knifes. But for some things i read you can use chopping ...with heel or middle or tip straight up and down. Well my question is while watching a video by Marcus Burics called types of cuts ....when he does celery strips and squaring off carrots he does tip of knife first down then back down ....can some one tell me what this type of technique is and what would it be called ?..If chop i only know to do with either tip ,heel or middle using a straight up and down motion. (nothing like he shows). THANKS....any help appreciated. Also seen when they cut a vegetable in half they have tip angled down when they cut and when tip hits the board they let the heel down,this also happens when squaring up a vegetable for cutting it julienne style, or making vegetable flat. yes i know there are many techniques for cutting with knife but never seen this used before.

[Thanks for the Crepes]

There are lots of threads on knife skills here on egullet. Here's a link to some.

 

 

[Alex]

5 hours ago, cutter said:

been teaching my self cutting techniques and understand most cutting is suppose to be with a slicing motion (locomotion) and chopping isnt a good idea they say for knifes. But for some things i read you can use chopping ...with heel or middle or tip straight up and down. Well my question is while watching a video by Marcus Burics called types of cuts ....when he does celery strips and squaring off carrots he does tip of knife first down then back down ....can some one tell me what this type of technique is and what would it be called ?..If chop i only know to do with either tip ,heel or middle using a straight up and down motion. (nothing like he shows). THANKS....any help appreciated. Also seen when they cut a vegetable in half they have tip angled down when they cut and when tip hits the board they let the heel down,this also happens when squaring up a vegetable for cutting it julienne style, or making vegetable flat. yes i know there are many techniques for cutting with knife but never seen this used before.

The technique you describe is not unusual at all. Do you have any books on knife skills? This is one that I recommend: Mastering Knife Skills: The Essential Guide to the Most Important Tools in Your Kitchen (with DVD), by Norman Weinstein.

 

Oh, and welcome to eGullet.

[paulraphael]

There are a lot of threads and sites and blogs that deal with these questions, but in my opinion not too many deal with them adequately. If you use typically burly European-style knives, then the eGullet online course, and all the standard Cordon-Bleu techniques are probably adequate.

 

If you're using thinner Japanese/Western hybrid knives, then there's a gap between the online instruction and the techniques that trained cooks often use. 

 

People do chop. And the thinner and more delicate the knife, the less likely they are to use Western rocking techniques. The techniques for these knives are derived from Japanese single-bevel techniques and adapted for the J/Western hybrid knives. Long slicing motions for proteins (starting with a short forward thrust to break the surface, followed by long crescent-shaped draw). Short push cutting motions for firmer foods (where the knife moves forward very slightly as its weight drops it through the food). Similar drawing cuts for more delicate food. And fast, vertical chopping with the front third of the blade for food that's firm enough hold its shape, delicate/small enough to not grab the blade. 

 

And there are hybrids between these motions. And no hard and fast rules about when to use which technique. It's more a matter of learning the techniques, practicing them, and then seeing which ones work in which situations. You may find that you prefer a different technique on today's mushrooms than on yesterday's. 

[cutter]

so the video i mention above what he is doing is probably a hybrid motion? since i posted been looking to see what i can find and it seems like its a rock chop ....(paper cutter) but in the above video it doesnt show tip down first then heel down ,it shows tip going forward till hits board then heel down. so....hybird motoin?

[paulraphael]

Based on your description, that sounds like push-cutting. The Japanese call this tsuki-giri (thrusting cut). It's a standard technique used with an usuba when cutting vegetables, and it translates well to a gyuto and other hybrid knives.

 

Here's a quick video of push-cutting a shallot.

 

Edited February 5, 2017 by paulraphael (log)

[Paul Fink]

That rocking motion is how I learned to cut. To me its the basic slice.

There are many good posts here. My suggestion is to buy 5# of carrots

and a box of band aides. Practice, Practice, Parctice

[dcarch]

Unless you work for a restaurant or a food supply business, there is no need to be fancy with knife skills. All the cutting onions 10 lbs in 10 seconds can be impressive, but no practical use in a normal kitchen. Rocking motion, slicing motion all can work well. 

 

The only skill you need is to keep your fingers away from the sharp end of the knife.

 

That said, do watch a few youtube videos and practice whatever you feel can be relevant to your typical recipes and eating habits.

 

dcarch

[Paul Fink]

18 minutes ago, dcarch said:

Unless you work for a restaurant or a food supply business, there is no need to be fancy with knife skills. All the cutting onions 10 lbs in 10 seconds can be impressive, but no practical use in a normal kitchen. Rocking motion, slicing motion all can work well. 

dcarch

 

well many cooks, most, have terrible knife skills but they manage.

But if you have decent knife skills you can be lots more productive.

And your product will be better, more uniform cooking, better mouth feel. 

Knife skills are just just that .. a skill. You need to spend the time to learn it.

[dcarch]

Perhaps I have been off-topic.   The OP asks "Knife techniques"

 

A skill is the learned capacity to carry out pre-determined results often with the minimum outlay of time, energy, or both. 

A technique is a procedure used to accomplish a specific activity or task.

 

dcarch

 

[paulraphael]

1 hour ago, dcarch said:

Unless you work for a restaurant or a food supply business, there is no need to be fancy with knife skills. All the cutting onions 10 lbs in 10 seconds can be impressive, but no practical use in a normal kitchen. Rocking motion, slicing motion all can work well. 

 

I'll agree if you're really talking about fancy skills (katsuramuki, making roses out of tomatoes, etc). But I'm talking about basic skills. Being quick and efficient, cutting food evenly to the sizes and shapes you want, and making clean cuts that best preserve the flavor and texture of the food. I think basic skills benefit everyone, and being better at them is always better than being worse. 

 

For me personally, broadening and improving my skillset has allowed to me to enjoy prep, when previously I didn't. And it lets me get things done in half the time. Always significant! Part of the enjoyment is that I have an understanding of specific techniques, so when I'm doing something tedious, I can be consciously working on how to improve them. 

 

As far as rocking or not rocking, it's entirely knife-dependent.  Rock-chopping was developed for European knives, which are limited by metallurgy in how sharp they can practically get. It's a technique that allows you to put a lot of force behind the cut, and to amplify that force with shearing action against the cutting board. The knives likewise have been designed for the technique, with a big curve in the belly. If you have a knife made of thinner, harder steel, not only is rocking unnecessary, but it's undesirable. Such a forceful technique would ravage the edge; you'd have a dull knife within minutes. I never rock-chop with the thin gyuto in that shallot video. But I have a burly German knife with a deep belly that I use for rock-chopping woody herbs and other things that are unfriendly to a thinner blade.

 

 

Edited February 5, 2017 by paulraphael (log)

[Anna N]

2 hours ago, Paul Fink said:

That rocking motion is how I learned to cut. To me its the basic slice.

There are many good posts here. My suggestion is to buy 5# of carrots

and a box of band aides. Practice, Practice, Parctice

Why waste 5 pounds of carrots? Make yourself a big pot of this.   You'll get to test your skills on a variety of textures and have something totally delicious to eat afterwards. 

[Porthos]

2 hours ago, dcarch said:

The only skill you need is to keep your fingers away from the sharp end of the knife.

 

This is by far the most important part of knife skills.

[scubadoo97]

Curl those fingers.   Learned the hard way after getting an EdgePro and not learning knife technique first.  

[paulraphael]

Re: "The only skill you need is to keep your fingers away from the sharp end of the knife" ... a lot of techniques put your fingers right against the blade. A lot of them cut right toward your fingers or right past them. Some of the Japanese techniques put your fingertip (not your curled knuckle) against the blade to guide it. I don't use the fingertip technique, but one of my teachers did, and he could out-cut anyone I've met. 

[Thanks for the Crepes]

I use a very sharp stainless boning/fillet knife for everything now except maybe splitting a watermelon, cutting pizza or a very large squash. It works well for me, as I haven't cut myself since I went in this direction. It is like working with a scalpel vs. a blunt instrument to me, and there is no rock-chopping involved, just precision slicing. YMMV

[HungryChris]

OK, my 2 cents: it's one thing if you are setting up your mis and rocking through a dozen onions or so, the standard technique gets it done. It's quite different, in my opinion,  if you are just cutting up half an onion to make a small batch of pico de gallo for dinner and you want to save the remaining half onion for another day. Knife skills vary from task to task. What is important is that you are comfortable with the knife, handle it safely, get the job done and are comfortable with the process. Unless you are under the watchful eye of a critique, who is in the position to ruin your career, who cares about anything else?

HC

[Anna N]

1 hour ago, HungryChris said:

OK, my 2 cents: it's one thing if you are setting up your mis and rocking through a dozen onions or so, the standard technique gets it done. It's quite different, in my opinion,  if you are just cutting up half an onion to make a small batch of pico de gallo for dinner and you want to save the remaining half onion for another day. Knife skills vary from task to task. What is important is that you are comfortable with the knife, handle it safely, get the job done and are comfortable with the process. Unless you are under the watchful eye of a critique, who is in the position to ruin your career, who cares about anything else?

HC

Change for your 2 cents:. I agree with you on the whole. But there is something to be said for mastering a skill that has no payback except the satisfaction of mastery. 

[dcarch]

Get a cut resistant glove (yes, you can buy one glove).

Now you can practice all those dangerous knife skill circus acts blindfolded.

 

dcarch

[Anna N]

Just now, dcarch said:

Get a cut resistant glove (yes, you can buy one glove).

Now you can practice all those dangerous knife skill circus acts blindfolded.

 

dcarch

Except that it is a "cut-resistant" glove. Not a "cut-proof" glove.  Over confidence in one's skill or one's glove could end up in a life-changing injury.  

[HungryChris]

39 minutes ago, Anna N said:

Change for your 2 cents:. I agree with you on the whole. But there is something to be said for mastering a skill that has no payback except the satisfaction of mastery. 

And in my opinion, getting the job done and being comfortable with the process, covers this issue.

HC

[paulraphael]

9 hours ago, dcarch said:

Get a cut resistant glove (yes, you can buy one glove).

Now you can practice all those dangerous knife skill circus acts blindfolded.

 

dcarch

 

I'm not sure what circus acts you're talking about. There's nothing inherently dangerous about any of the basic skills. Some of them are counterintuitive, and may seem scary (like bias-slicing toward your guide hand), but I find this just focusses your attention. I've never actually seen anyone cut themselves doing this technique, even as a beginner. The techniques usually have safety built into them.

 

The thing is, when you're working with a very sharp knife, you never apply more than smallest amount of force to it. So you have a lot of control, and the knife never slips and goes flying. You get comfortable working the blade right by your fingers. And doing it blindfolded actually isn't much of a challenge, because your guide fingers position the knife more than your eyes do.

 

I suspect knifeproof gloves would just foster inattention and bad habits. They make those things for processing plant workers who butcher meat on 12 hour shifts.

 

Edited February 6, 2017 by paulraphael (log)

[cutter]

paulraphael   maybe i am seeing the push cutting wrong but the video i asked about clearly puts the tip on a forward slice hits the board then heel comes down. with push cutting one you ref. a video to does not show tip hitting board.?  could you tell me if  if push cutting also does this .   i always thought push cutting as long forward stroke then reach heel back of knife down.

only a low cut   technique starts with tip on board and you push forward and down,but here this also is not like video i mentioned either. the tip in the video i mention does not start at the board at all,you have to slide in a little and when tip hits board you bring the heel down.    sorry i cant get the bold type off something is wrong with my computer.   it seems to me the guy in the video i am talking about does maybe a thrust with point of knife and then brings knife heel down. thanks                                                                                                                                 if you watch his video marcus burics types of cuts ,when he is doing the celery at 2:47 there is a very good close up of what i am asking.                       

Edited February 6, 2017 by cutter (log)

[paulraphael]

If I understand what you're describing (didn't see a link in your posts) it sounds just like rock-chopping. Some purists say that the tip should never leave the board, but a lot of people find it more efficient to do it that way, especially if you're cutting something tall. Either way it's the same basic motion ... the curved belly of the knife is acting as a fulcrum, and the blade pushes forward and down, shearing the food between knife and cutting board. Standard technique for a German-style knife, poor technique for a gyuto that's thin behind the edge.

[btbyrd]

Here's a link to the video he's talking about:

 

There's nothing special about the technique he's using on the celery. The tip isn't doing any special work, and it's not going forward. He's just using the full length of the blade to chop through the celery, and he's able to use the full length of the blade because he's using a rocking motion. What's distracting you is the curve of the blade, as well as its short length. I do the exact same cut using a Global G17 chef's knife (which is much longer) and don't need to use the exaggerated rocking motion in the video because the length of the blade is much longer. You can do the exact same thing using a Chinese vegetable cleaver or a Japanese nakiri -- both of which have straight blades -- by just chopping straight down. But since his knife has a curved blade, and because it's so short, he has to rock it to chop it.