Using Stock I for Stock II then Stock III rather than reducing

[rotuts]

some time ago I may have gotten responses to my question on various Stock thread.  but I can't find them

 

Im going to be making more stock this winter , mostly chicken , turkey and possible duck

 

thanks to the ease of use of an InstaPot and the ' Soup ' button.

 

Im not so keen on simmering to reduce the water content to make a concentrated stock.

 

I very keen on a Push Button approach which the IP offers

 

so Id use fresh carcass  either browned or not  in the IP for stock I.

 

Id carefully chill it and then freeze it   and use that instead of water for the same think with carcass II  etc

 

Id not use any seasoning or herbs until the last iteration.

 

if im careful with hygiene  and temps , I can see nothing wrong with trying this.

 

any experience or suggestions ?

[Chris Hennes]

I nearly always make double or triple stocks in roughly the manner you are suggesting (though I pressure cook mine). 

[rotuts]

thanks    i wasn't as clear as i might have been :

 

Ill be using the InstaPot  pressure cooker on ' soup ' due to its outstanding ease of use.

 

and soon enough 

 

 

there will be plenty of Snow for the cool down phase.  its attractively priced.

[Martin Fisher]

Yes, I posted about it here.

[dcarch]

Here is how I make stock (exercising my stock options ):

 

1. Super stock - using a pressure cooker to pressure steam (a separate pot inside the PC) bones and meat, with NO WATER added. An hour later, you will get a cup of incredible stock.

 

2. Using the leftovers from #1 above, add water and PC. You will get your regular stock.

 

3. Using the leftovers from #2 another 45 minutes, you will get watery stock, which you will use next time to make #2 above.

 

After #3. part of the bones will become very soft. I eat that part of the bones for more nutrition.

 

dcarch

 

 

Edited November 13, 2016 by dcarch (log)

[rotuts]

thank you.

 

its all here , somewhere  ......

[msacuisine]

I, too, do this all the time. Double and triple stocks are great and super easy in the pressure cooker.

[btbyrd]

Or just use less water the first time.

[gfweb]

2 hours ago, btbyrd said:

Or just use less water the first time.

 

That's my move.

 

RE Chicken/duck/turkey stocks. ... I find that turkey stock is particularly nice in thick soups eg cauliflower or butternut. Adds a depth to them.

Edited November 14, 2016 by gfweb (log)

[heidih]

The amazing late Barbara Tropp was a huge fan  http://www.diningdish.net/2008/01/recently-discovered-unpublished-article.html

[torolover]

20 hours ago, btbyrd said:

Or just use less water the first time.

 

Is it OK to simply pressure cook chicken or pork carcasses with no water, or very little water?  No dangers?

 

Can I simply pressure cook pork fat back with no water?

 

I posted earlier about trying to boil broth with high fat content (with no lid) and found that the soup "exploded" or bursted on me.

 

Thanks!

 

Edited November 14, 2016 by torolover (log)

[rotuts]

you have to use the minimum water that the PC maker recommends

 

in the IP it might be 1 cup

 

however , you can put the carcass in a second container above that one cup and PC that it seems

 

this is what 

 

@dcarch  

 

there are various circular vessels that fit in the IP , on the rack that came with the IP so their contents are above the water and thus Pressure-Steamed.

 

if you just put the carcass on the rack that came with the ip , w 1 cup water under that , the carcass with ' drip ' into that one cup

[dcarch]

1 hour ago, torolover said:

 

Is it OK to simply pressure cook chicken or pork carcasses with no water, or very little water?  No dangers?

No you cannot. You can start  a fire. My method is to pressure steam using a separate pot inside the PC.

 

1 hour ago, torolover said:

Can I simply pressure cook pork fat back with no water?

No you cannot. Fat can catch fire, water cannot.

 

I posted earlier about trying to boil broth with high fat content (with no lid) and found that the soup "exploded" or bursted on me.

Yes that can happen. If you drop water into 400F oil.

 

1 hour ago, torolover said:

Thanks!

 

 

 

[torolover]

1 hour ago, dcarch said:

No you cannot. You can start  a fire. My method is to pressure steam using a separate pot inside the PC.

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, rotuts said:

you have to use the minimum water that the PC maker recommends

 

in the IP it might be 1 cup

 

however , you can put the carcass in a second container above that one cup and PC that it seems

 

this is what 

 

@dcarch  

 

there are various circular vessels that fit in the IP , on the rack that came with the IP so their contents are above the water and thus Pressure-Steamed.

 

if you just put the carcass on the rack that came with the ip , w 1 cup water under that , the carcass with ' drip ' into that one cup

 

I understand now.  Thanks so much for the tips!!

[chefmd]

I usually make stock with left over stock.  Bones, trimmings, left over meat/poultry pieces cooked in pressure cooker or Instant Pot using left over stock made previously and a splash of water as needed.  Sometimes I run out of stock and start making it again with just water.

[Shalmanese]

11 hours ago, dcarch said:

No you cannot. You can start  a fire. My method is to pressure steam using a separate pot inside the PC.

 

You might get a carbonized mess but you're extremely unlikely to get a fire. Properly operated, a pressure cooker should vent out all the oxygen and be filled with water vapor only. Since there's no other oxidizer present, a fire is impossible to start under any circumstance. Even improperly operated, the amount of oxygen inside the pressure cooker isn't enough to combust and there's no way for further oxygen to get in. 

 

People don't realize, you can drop a lit match into a can of gasoline and the match will go out because there isn't enough oxygen in the can to form combustion. About the only conceivable way I could imagine you could start a fire with a pressure cooker is if you were boiling something with a high alcohol content with an old school jiggle top style pressure cooker on a gas stove and you somehow bumped it sideways so the jiggle top fell off and it started venting gas directly into the flame. 

[dcarch]

4 hours ago, Shalmanese said:

 

You might get a carbonized mess but you're extremely unlikely to get a fire. Properly operated, a pressure cooker should vent out all the oxygen and be filled with water vapor only. Since there's no other oxidizer present, a fire is impossible to start under any circumstance. Even improperly operated, the amount of oxygen inside the pressure cooker isn't enough to combust and there's no way for further oxygen to get in. 

 

People don't realize, you can drop a lit match into a can of gasoline and the match will go out because there isn't enough oxygen in the can to form combustion. About the only conceivable way I could imagine you could start a fire with a pressure cooker is if you were boiling something with a high alcohol content with an old school jiggle top style pressure cooker on a gas stove and you somehow bumped it sideways so the jiggle top fell off and it started venting gas directly into the flame. 

 

Your points are valid, under normal situations.

I had made it very simple when I said a fire could happen. 

Many of us have experienced the mess when a PC erupts with contents sprayed all over in the kitchen. The problem is if the spray is mostly atomized oil/fat, then, as we know, atomized oil/fat in air can be explosive. For that reason, no PC manufacturer advises using the PC to pressure fry food.

 

BTW, don't try the match in a gas tank trick.

dcarch

Edited November 15, 2016 by dcarch (log)

[paulraphael]

The idea behind a double or triple stock is to concentrate the non-volatile flavors without losing all the volatile ones.

 

It's substantially similar to the classical technique of reducing a stock in stages—reducing half the stock by 80% or so, then adding another quarter of the stock and reducing that a bunch, and then adding the last quarter and reducing hardly at all.

 

It's simpler these days just start with less water, if you're using a pressure cooker or sous-vide. The catch is that you'll end up with a way higher proportion of aromatics. The pc lets just some of the aromatics out; the s.v. bag doesn't let out any. So you have to adjust your recipe. I cut way back on the mirepoix, especially carrots, which for some reason dominate in pc and sv stocks. And I leave garlic out of the sv bag entirely. If I want garlic, I'll steep it in later. SV'd garlic makes everything taste and smell like a tire fire (moral: not all aromatic compounds are sacred ... )

[torolover]

On 11/17/2016 at 8:44 PM, paulraphael said:

The idea behind a double or triple stock is to concentrate the non-volatile flavors without losing all the volatile ones.

 

It's substantially similar to the classical technique of reducing a stock in stages—reducing half the stock by 80% or so, then adding another quarter of the stock and reducing that a bunch, and then adding the last quarter and reducing hardly at all.

 

It's simpler these days just start with less water, if you're using a pressure cooker or sous-vide. The catch is that you'll end up with a way higher proportion of aromatics. The pc lets just some of the aromatics out; the s.v. bag doesn't let out any. So you have to adjust your recipe. I cut way back on the mirepoix, especially carrots, which for some reason dominate in pc and sv stocks. And I leave garlic out of the sv bag entirely. If I want garlic, I'll steep it in later. SV'd garlic makes everything taste and smell like a tire fire (moral: not all aromatic compounds are sacred ... )

 

 

Curious what your thoughts are about boiling stock briefly after pressure cooking the chicken carcass.  I compared two stocks.

 

Stock 1-  I pressured cooked chicken carcass for 1.5 hours, did a natural pressure release, and then strained the stock into another container.

 

Stock 2- I pressured cooked chicken carcass for 1.5 hours, did a natural pressure release, then boiled the stock with the chicken carcass for 5 min., then strained the stock into another container.  

 

I found stock 2 to have a much richer and stronger flavor.  Boiling for 5 min. didn't reduce the stock too much, but I think perhaps boiling the chicken carcass for 5 min helped bring out more of the juices inside the chicken carcass?

 

Any thoughts?

[rotuts]

very interesting

 

did you PC the carcass in water to cover ?  or Pressure-steam in a container over the minimum water needed by your PC

[torolover]

I pressure cooked in water.  Ratio of chicken to water is 1:1 by weight.

 

 

[paulraphael]

On 11/19/2016 at 9:51 AM, torolover said:

 

 

Curious what your thoughts are about boiling stock briefly after pressure cooking the chicken carcass.  I compared two stocks.

 

Stock 1-  I pressured cooked chicken carcass for 1.5 hours, did a natural pressure release, and then strained the stock into another container.

 

Stock 2- I pressured cooked chicken carcass for 1.5 hours, did a natural pressure release, then boiled the stock with the chicken carcass for 5 min., then strained the stock into another container.  

 

I found stock 2 to have a much richer and stronger flavor.  Boiling for 5 min. didn't reduce the stock too much, but I think perhaps boiling the chicken carcass for 5 min helped bring out more of the juices inside the chicken carcass?

 

Any thoughts?

 

Interesting. My only thought is that your pressure cooker did a good job of keeping things below the boil, so whatever fats were released didn't get emulsified. In the batch you boiled, the fats got emulsified and gave a richer flavor and texture (this can make a stock muddy if it's overdone, but is a staple of ramen stocks). This is just a guess.

[rotuts]

@dcarch 

 

Im planning on trying your stock method later today or tomorrow , in the IntaPot.

 

for # 2 , you use HP , for how long ?

 

many thanks

[Okanagancook]

Over in the topic for the cookbook Taste and Technique there was a discussion about stock making. Here is a copy of it below.  Rather than comment on the outcome of my bone stock there I thought I would put it in this thread.  The bone stock pictured below was very clean tasting but not very meaty.  DH says 'it's very boney'.  Different for sure.  But, the main thing I learned from making this stock is to use the Chefalarm to keep the stock between 190 and 200 degrees.  This kept the stock very clean with not much skimming to do.  Part of this is likely due to the fact there wasn't much meat in the stock. 

Not sure I would make this type of stock again.  Not cheap at $25 for 1 pint of 'glace de viande'.

"

On 1/6/2017 at 10:07 AM, btbyrd said:

Bones have very little flavor on their own. They contribute body to stocks, but not much in the way of taste. Home cooks often overlook the importance of flesh in making a flavorful stock and opt for meatless bones or well-picked carcasses. Even then, few use enough bones to yield a stock worth making. The easiest way to make a powerful stock is to use cuts that have a good balance of flavorful meat and bones... things like chicken wings/thighs, oxtails, short ribs, shank meat, and neck bones. These contain enough meat to give you flavor and enough collagen to give body to the stock. If I ever make a stock with just bones, I'll add ground meat to up the flavor. And if I ever make a stock with just meat (like when there's a crazy sale on chicken breasts), I'll throw in some feet to add body. At any rate, the ratio of water to bones/meat should approximate 1:1... add water until the bones are just barely covered. Lots of bones, lots of meat, little water... excellent stock.

What you said is the way I usually make stock but I thought I would try this recipe out of Cooking the Nouvelle Cuisine in America.  I have never made a stock with just bones before and am curious because of the forward in the book.  Once reduced to about 1 pint it is their glace de viande which is used throughout their recipes.  They say it is essential to make the glace.  So I just thought I would try it and see how it turns out.  I agree about the addition of meat really making a stock flavourful.  I am also trying a new technique:  using a "Chefalarm" in the stock to ensure it stays between 190 and 200 degrees F.  Usually when making stock over a longer period of time, I come back to the pot to discover it has come to a higher simmer than I want or it has gone too low.  With the upper and lower alarm I can relax today."

Edited January 7, 2017 by Okanagancook (log)

[btbyrd]

Nice! I've never made glace de viande from scratch before, but I always keep a container of More Than Gourmet's GDV on hand in my fridge (along with their chicken glace) for last-minute sauce work or to boost other stocks/soups if they need it.