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Baking pizza solution


Franci

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I've not baked pizza on the stone for years!
Now my kids were asking for something that resemble more the Neapolitan pizza rather than a pizza in the pan. 

My problem is that I have 2 ovens and no broiler. I have an ancient Chamber stove with external broiler and a small half size professional Cadco oven. Besides running out and buying an Unii oven, any improvement you think I could achieve with what I have available?

 

Yesterday I tried with this setting. Pizzacraft steel on the middle shelf and 4 cordelite tiles on top. I picked the pizzacraft because it's 14x14 inches, perfect for the dimension of my oven and I didn't want something so heavy that would be a problem to move do the Cadco oven if needed.

 

prima pizza 5.JPG

 

I  turned on the oven at the max, not sure how much is the max, my oven thermometer broke and let heat for 1 hour. The first pizza, after 1 minute and 20 seconds, when I checked was already burned at the bottom, all around the rim but the top was not done.

So I moved the pizza to the top broiler for other 2.30 minutes

 

grill.JPG

 

I have to see how the cooking goes with the Cadco. Any advice you could spare?

 

Thanks!

 

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I'm inferring from your comments about moving the steel that you're baking the pizza on the steel. I haven't used a steel but have used stone (specifically firebricks) for pizza in both a conventional oven and a gas grill.

When using the oven, which is a self cleaning one, I set it at 500 F. and leave it on for 45 min. before putting in the pizza directly on the stone. The setting actually gets the oven to 550 F. It takes about 6-8 min. for the bottom crust to start developing char spots and for the cheese to 50% brown on top (this is using a fairly thin crust from a no-knead 24 hr. ferment dough). It also necessitates a restrained hand with the toppings.

The bricks are on the middle rack of the oven.

Just speculating, and anyone with experience using steel can correct me, is that the heat transfer from the steel is much more efficient than using stone and overcooking the bottom before the top is done.

 

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I know it's stew. What KIND of stew?

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I use a 1/4 inch thick steel, that I had cut for the purpose, in the middle of a small oven preheated to 550 f. I find that a thin crust pizza, with modest toppings gets the right char spots on the bottom and cooks the toppings perfectly at 11 minutes.

HC

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1 hour ago, Wayne said:

 

I'm inferring from your comments about moving the steel that you're baking the pizza on the steel.

 

 

Do you mean stone instead of steal? Putting the steel on the top shelf and moving the stone in the middle?

 

I know  this gas oven has already a lot of heat the bottom. So maybe it would make sense to invert.

I'll try that, and also to see what happens in the Cadco oven that is just convection.

Edited by Franci (log)
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18 minutes ago, Franci said:

 

Do you mean stone instead of steal? Putting the steel on the top shelf and moving the stone in the middle?

 

I know  this gas oven has already a lot of heat the bottom. So maybe it would make sense to invert.

I'll try that, and also to see what happens in the Cadco oven that is just convection.

 

I'm still not sure if your pizza is on the stone or on the steel. But if you are baking the pizza with the setup in your OP my guess is there is too much heat from below. Try inverting with the stone below and the steel above, heat the oven, and bake on the stone.

The heat absorbed by the steel should radiate down to cook the top properly.

Good luck. It's the best pizza since you can control the quality of the ingredients.

 

 

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I know it's stew. What KIND of stew?

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Is it possible to move the rack with the tiles closer to the top of the pizza?  Infrared radiation (which is what is coming off the tiles to heat from the top) decreases by the distance to the fourth power, so the closer you can get it to the top of the pizza, the more effective it will be.  If it's too far away, it's almost like it's not there at all.

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Kenneth, I measured the distance between the tiles and the steel and it's about 2 inches and 3/4. Maybe it's not clear from the pictures but I had to put the oven rack where the tiles are resting upside down (otherwise the tiles would not fit, they are 7.5x7.5 inches each one). As afterthought a stone 16-17 inches wide would have been a better solution. 

 

Anyway by moving the both racks upside down and resting the steel on top of an additional pan wrack I could bring the distance to a little less than 2 inches. And maybe I can think of ways to make it even a little bit shorter. Thanks for suggesting it,  Kenneth.

 

pizza steel 2.JPG

 

 

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1 hour ago, KennethT said:

Infrared radiation (which is what is coming off the tiles to heat from the top) decreases by the distance to the fourth power, so the closer you can get it to the top of the pizza, the more effective it will be.  If it's too far away, it's almost like it's not there at all.

 

I can't agree with this.  Franci's oven tiles are not a point source of energy.  And even if one assumed a point source, the decrease to the pizza would be by the second power, not the fourth.

 

If infrared radiation from a culinary blackbody or a cooking fire decreased by distance to the fourth power, roasting wouldn't work and we'd still be eating nuts and berries.  (Spoken as someone who eats a lot of nuts.)

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Cooking is cool.  And kitchen gear is even cooler.  -- Chad Ward

Whatever you crave, there's a dumpling for you. -- Hsiao-Ching Chou

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This will definitely be easier with an IR thermometer. In general, the lower in the oven you put that pizza steel, the greater the proportion of heat the pizza will get from the bottom. The steel is really effective at storing and delivering heat, so generally what will work is a position that's as high as possible, even with no broiler.

 

Those stones you're putting on top are a wild card. They may even be reducing the heat the getting to the top of the pizza. Here's why: usually, the top of the pizza cooks part by radiation (IR coming off the top of the oven), and part by convection (hot air up there that's risen from the bottom heating element). But what heats the top of the oven and allows it to radiate IR is that same convective air. It rises and pools at the top of the oven before being vented. It's possible that those stones, separated from the top of the oven, will never get as hot as the oven top proper.

 

It's also possible that they are weaker radiators of heat than the black steel of the oven, even when heated to the same termperature. 

 

I think you'll do best with either 1) steel in top rack position, and no stones, or 2) stones in top rack position and steel directly underneath. If I had to make a bet, it would be on #1. I'm curious to hear what actually works.

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Notes from the underbelly

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Franci, the main issue I see is that I don't know how you will get the high temps needed for Neapolitan and at the same time get  top heat to balance the bottom heat without a broiler.  I did want to point out that the Unii gets mixed reviews http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=42123.0  If you can afford the Blackstone, http://www.amazon.com/Blackstone-1575-Outdoor-Pizza-Oven/dp/B00CELFJ4A?ie=UTF8&keywords=blackstone%20pizza&qid=1462238090&ref_=sr_1_1&sr=8-1  and have the space to use it outside,  that would be the way to go, it gets mostly positive reviews on pizzamaking.com.

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It is going to be tough to achieve the leoparding of the best Neapolitan pizza's with just a home oven and no expensive specialty set up. The linked photo was produced at a now defunct restaurant when they used coal. I have to say your kids have very good taste, though. A proper Neapolitan pizza is food of the gods.

 

I agree with @Wayne's assessment to reverse your arrangement of stone and steel though. Steel or cast iron stores up and releases heat at a much faster rate than stone ever can. If all your heat is coming from the bottom gas element in the oven chamber, and your first experiment burned the bottom crust prematurely, I think he's right on point.

 

Franci, your ancient top broiler scares the beep out of me! Yikes! :) Would not want to be involved with a kitchen mishap with that monster! I bet it's very efficient at cooking fish or meats as long as one is extremely careful. 

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> ^ . . ^ <

 

 

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Thank you, guys! An IR thermometer is already in my basket and I'll put all your suggestion to practice. One by one and come back and report. This is fun :biggrin:

 

9 hours ago, Barrytm said:

  If you can afford the Blackstone, http://www.amazon.com/Blackstone-1575-Outdoor-Pizza-Oven/dp/B00CELFJ4A?ie=UTF8&keywords=blackstone%20pizza&qid=1462238090&ref_=sr_1_1&sr=8-1  and have the space to use it outside,  that would be the way to go, it gets mostly positive reviews on pizzamaking.com.

 

Barrytm, I'd love that! But I'll have to postpone it. It seems we'll be moving again, not sure if within the year and not sure what will be our first accommodation. But soon or later...I'd like a brick oven.

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10 hours ago, Barrytm said:

 If you can afford the Blackstone, http://www.amazon.com/Blackstone-1575-Outdoor-Pizza-Oven/dp/B00CELFJ4A?ie=UTF8&keywords=blackstone%20pizza&qid=1462238090&ref_=sr_1_1&sr=8-1  and have the space to use it outside,  that would be the way to go, it gets mostly positive reviews on pizzamaking.com.

 

Recognizing that this may not be an option for Franci right now, I recommend the Blackstone for anyone else who might be considering it.  After years of trying other methods, it worked so well for me that for the first month or two I got a little giddy whenever I used it.  I am still working on how to get the very best results with various doughs/recipes, but it doesn't take long to learn how to turn out pizzas that are much better than what you can typically make in an oven or grill.

Edited by rustwood (log)
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...I'd like a brick oven

 

meeeeee 2! 

for bread as well as pizza.  I have many times gone into the initial planning and to-date have abandoned the idea for one simple reason:

it takes longer to preheat a (massive) masonry oven that to mix, rise & bake the bread.  and pizza ... what - 10 minutes....?

 

however comma I could be coerced into a propane fired "loose built" unit - "loose" as in not a massive mortar type construction - because the theory behind using propane would be to hit the ignite button, turn it up full blast to pre-heat as fast as possible. 

 

"fast heating" and "masonry" are not compatible.  but a pile of insulating/fire brick & a gas burner would work....

any one run across such a set-up?

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  • 2 weeks later...

Ok guys, it took me some time.

 

this is what I tried yesterday

I moved the racks on the top part of the oven. And I used the tiles only to support the top rack. I used my finger to show the distance to the top.

ovenprova1.JPG

 

I turned the oven at the highest temperature and left it there for 1 hour and half. I measured the temperature on the steel with my IR thermomether and was readying 600F, the ceiling of the oven was not too far away, 574F.

 

I started just with a piece of dough no condiment, just for testing porpouses

 

ovenprova2.JPG

ovenprova3.JPG

 

 

This is after a minute and 20 seconds. I tried with a pizza, not napoletana, but scrocchia, roman style. No way.  the bottom will do, not the top. Too bad, this oven is a monster for heat retention.

I'll try the cadco and see what happens there.

 

 

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In his Pizza Blog, Jeff Verasano says he has to use foil to keep his stone from getting too hot relative to the top of the oven. I think he says puts the foil loosely on the stone, shiny side-up, until a few minutes before popping in the pizza. 

 

He uses a stone instead of a steel, since he's rigged his oven to heat to 900. But I imagine a similar tactic would work with a steel at a lower temperature.

 

One question: how much room is there for air flow around the edges of your steel? Is it possible that it's blocking the flow to the roof of the oven?

Notes from the underbelly

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Paul, if you go back to my first picture on top you can see how much room the steel gets on the sides. I think plenty.

I've a dough in the fridge for tonight. I'm trying the Cadco and see how it goes there...otherwise, I'm back to my pizza in a pan at least until I can have a different baking solution. My love for thin pizza is not so big to tolerate mediocre pizza :D

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6 hours ago, Franci said:

My love for thin pizza is not so big to tolerate mediocre pizza :D

 

I hear you. I've got the cool oven blues also. My dough is the best I've ever made, and I love the big hunk of steel, but have reached the limits of my dumb little oven. I'm tempted to burn a pile of wood in there just to see what happens ...

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Notes from the underbelly

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Here I am. Better dough, 24hrs slow rising with 2g fresh yeast and some old dough. 

The bottom didn't get charred has in the other oven, temperature lower but convection made cooking more homogeneous. 4:30 minutes at 500 F.

 

Next time I'll try a verace but the Roman style pretty decent. I was also out of mozzarella and had to use scamorza.

 

 

image.jpeg

 

image.jpeg

 

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