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Home Made Ice Cream (2015– )


Darienne
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24 minutes ago, weinoo said:

You know, @David Ross, many of the places we go to which are more informal...often, they'll scoop ice cream using a spoon (or 2) (like for us, soup spoons) and make a quenelle:

 

 

Was actually thinking about how I kind of use a scoop in the way you make a quenelle, i.e. a toward you, then away from you, then back toward you movement.    Like that makes sense...

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6 hours ago, Synerge said:

 

I'm asumming that you actually know the POD and PAC differences on all the sugars, because sucrose and dextrose are sugars and have completely different values

Dextrose has more antifreezing properties, but less sweetness. Thats why replacing a part of the sucrose makes it less sweet

About the chocolate, to be honest I dont like it, so I can't really help you with that, as I don't know how it functions with other ingredients and which makes it stand out more than others. There are tons of information in many books and articles, but I avoided them on purpose, as I will never make chocolate gelato :P. But its probably that if the chocolate stands out more with sucrose than with dextrose, that means that its beneficial for it to be sweeter, or maybe thats just your perception

 

There is also the fact that the texture and properties improve a lot when using at least 2 different sugars, or I would say sucrose + a different sugar, be it inverted sugar, glucose, dextrose. There is a synergy between different sugars that was discovered not long ago, thats why all gelatos and ice creams now use dextrose or glucose, when before sucrose was only used. That also makes people say that ice creams are now artificial, because they read dextrose and associate with some chemical additive of some sort and they have no idea that its just a normal sugar. Its not an edulcorant

 

Anyway, thats it. Formulas have changed, if you want better ice creams and gelatos you will need to use at least 2 sugars. With dextrose you will be fine for most ice creams, as glucose DE is a little more difficult to get, well, at least here. By the way, if you get glucose, it should be atomized, meaning powder glucose, and with dextrose equivalent DE of 38 40, for better serving purposes. Glucose 100DE = Dextrose, so be careful with that

hi there. yep im aware of pod and pac and this is why i adjusted the formula to be 18 percent sugar as that is way higher than my usual formulations. the experiment was focused on the effects of varying sugars and sugar level on the flavor perception of chocolate and i came out with insights that were contraryto what i expected. for example the formulation with oy 6 percent fat actually had duller chocolate flavor i assumed the flavor would be more pronounced given all the documents supporting that lower butterfat led to a more chocolate taste because you have less fat coating your tongue. 

 

i was also surprised how the change in the sugar type led to a dulling of the chocolate taste. i wasnt expecting that as i thought the change of sugars would simply mean lower fpd and od course sweetness.  i am thinking that chocolate is really carried by sweetness more than anything else. the longer the sweetness lasts in your mouth the longer the chocolate flavor stays. this means using a higher proportion of sucrose would benefit it.

 

now im thinking how do i make an upfront chocolate taste, i was hoping the lower fat is the answer but i havent done a low fat but high sucrose version yet. this is because i dont like super sweet ice cream

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, ccp900 said:

hi there. yep im aware of pod and pac and this is why i adjusted the formula to be 18 percent sugar as that is way higher than my usual formulations. the experiment was focused on the effects of varying sugars and sugar level on the flavor perception of chocolate and i came out with insights that were contraryto what i expected. for example the formulation with oy 6 percent fat actually had duller chocolate flavor i assumed the flavor would be more pronounced given all the documents supporting that lower butterfat led to a more chocolate taste because you have less fat coating your tongue. 

 

i was also surprised how the change in the sugar type led to a dulling of the chocolate taste. i wasnt expecting that as i thought the change of sugars would simply mean lower fpd and od course sweetness.  i am thinking that chocolate is really carried by sweetness more than anything else. the longer the sweetness lasts in your mouth the longer the chocolate flavor stays. this means using a higher proportion of sucrose would benefit it.

 

now im thinking how do i make an upfront chocolate taste, i was hoping the lower fat is the answer but i havent done a low fat but high sucrose version yet. this is because i dont like super sweet ice cream

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Actually, I think that the fat relation with taste goes the other way around. For example in USA they increased a lot fat content as it gave the ice cream a different texture and flavour

One thing is certain, while more fat you have, more creamy is the ice cream. Because fat does not freeze, so you have less water, so less ice problems

Obviously, on the other side, fat is extremely unhealthy, specially if you are planning to eat ice cream on a regular basis. A 10% fat content is a lot more balanced, and it comes out great. You can also go for italy's gelatos that go from 4% to 8% top. In argentina, the gelatos usually go from 7% to 10%. For me, 6% is a little to low, 8% sounds better in all the cases. I try to get values between 8 and 10

 

Chocolate is probably the most difficult ice cream to do, because the main compontent, that is chocolate, is quite complex, and changes everything in the formula. It has fats, sugars, solids. Everything. Also, the quality and type of chocolate change everything aswell

Your finding is interesting, you say that with a smaller POD, the chocolate taste doesn't stand out too much. In the contrary, if you increase sweetness, the flavour is better. That maybe depends on the chocolate you are using. Also have in mind that chocolate itself is really high on fat.

Post your recipe so we can check what is going on. Although I have no experiene in this, maybe others that do like chocolate can say something about it. I can only say that chocolate is really bitter, specially if you go more to pure chocolate. Milk chocolate on the other half, or maybe even white chocolate, completely different taste

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1 hour ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

The best chocolate ice cream I've made is Rose levy Beranbaum's.

 

I watched the video link you put before, and it does look good. Although it seems a quite low overrun ice cream

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37 minutes ago, Synerge said:

I watched the video link you put before, and it does look good. Although it seems a quite low overrun ice cream

 

Overrun depends on how ice cream is churned.  I prefer low overrun.

 

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1 minute ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

 

Overrun depends on how ice cream is churned.  I prefer low overrun.

 

 

USA ice creams have really high overrun, maybe 60 70%. We have gelato here in my country, so we have 30 35% overrun

Anyway, we cannot control overrun with our home machines.

Even for gelato, that ice cream seems low overrun, like 15%, its probably the recipe, but well, if it tastes fine

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1 minute ago, Synerge said:

 

USA ice creams have really high overrun, maybe 60 70%. We have gelato here in my country, so we have 30 35% overrun

Anyway, we cannot control overrun with our home machines.

Even for gelato, that ice cream seems low overrun, like 15%, its probably the recipe, but well, if it tastes fine

 

My Cuisinart ICE-100 has two dashers.  One for lower overrun and one for higher overrun.  I typically use the dasher for higher overrun but it still gives me the lower overrun I like.  For my ice cream I churn very briefly, about 15 minutes.  Longer than this I find the ice cream texture suffers.

 

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1 minute ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

 

My Cuisinart ICE-100 has two dashers.  One for lower overrun and one for higher overrun.  I typically use the dasher for higher overrun but it still gives me the lower overrun I like.  For my ice cream I churn very briefly, about 15 minutes.  Longer than this I find the ice cream texture suffers.

 

 

Yeah, I heard about the 2 dashers. Although they seem to pretty much give the same result, as usually the overrun is giving by speed and not so much by the dasher itself. And our machines cannot change speed. Unlucky :(

If we could increase the speed, to 100 rpm at least, that is the gelato speed, we could finish the ice cream faster. And that means better texture, smaller ice crystals. Although we should also need more freezing power, but our machines are not that bad either, they may be able to handle some of increased speed

 

You are doing the right thing actually at removing it earlier, as while more you leave the ice cream in the machine, less effective is the freezing due to lack of power. Usually you should not remove it by time, but with a digital thermometer check the temperatura, should be about -7 to -10º C when its ready to be taken out, although it depends on the machine itself. Some only reach -7 before starting to go slower

I'm currently leaving the whole process until the machine cannot longer churn, and thats it usually 30 minutes, with good results. I haven't tasted ice crystals for long time, but I will be testing new methods, like putting less mix in the machine, removing it early, leaving it in the machine to try to blast freeze it without churning, etc. There must be a way to somehow simulate the texture that proffesional machines give. If there is one, I will find it. One great thing that would be amazing, is to make a custom blade, to actually scrap the bowl sides instead of getting close, so every single ice cream in the sides is removed, just like pro machines. Metal blades would also be something great

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4 minutes ago, Synerge said:

 

Yeah, I heard about the 2 dashers. Although they seem to pretty much give the same result, as usually the overrun is giving by speed and not so much by the dasher itself. And our machines cannot change speed. Unlucky :(

If we could increase the speed, to 100 rpm at least, that is the gelato speed, we could finish the ice cream faster. And that means better texture, smaller ice crystals. Although we should also need more freezing power, but our machines are not that bad either, they may be able to handle some of increased speed

 

You are doing the right thing actually at removing it earlier, as while more you leave the ice cream in the machine, less effective is the freezing due to lack of power. Usually you should not remove it by time, but with a digital thermometer check the temperatura, should be about -7 to -10º C when its ready to be taken out, although it depends on the machine itself. Some only reach -7 before starting to go slower

I'm currently leaving the whole process until the machine cannot longer churn, and thats it usually 30 minutes, with good results. I haven't tasted ice crystals for long time, but I will be testing new methods, like putting less mix in the machine, removing it early, leaving it in the machine to try to blast freeze it without churning, etc. There must be a way to somehow simulate the texture that proffesional machines give. If there is one, I will find it. One great thing that would be amazing, is to make a custom blade, to actually scrap the bowl sides instead of getting close, so every single ice cream in the sides is removed, just like pro machines. Metal blades would also be something great

 

I would say slower rotation speed is better for ice cream texture.  But if I were looking for even better texture I'd go out and buy a Pacojet.  Unfortunately I can't afford one.

 

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14 minutes ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

 

I would say slower rotation speed is better for ice cream texture.  But if I were looking for even better texture I'd go out and buy a Pacojet.  Unfortunately I can't afford one.

 

 

Actually everything about ice cream is speed. Professional ice creams are done in 6 7 minutes, and they leave the machine almost ready, just a blast freeze and they are done

Ours leave the machine at somewhat "similar" texture and progress, in 30 minutes. If you withdraw it before, it will be quite soft, with clear and visible water spots

While longer it stays in the machine, worse structure and texture it will have. This was actually proven and tested chemically and scientifically

 

The difference between gelato and ice cream, is not the time, but the speed. Ice cream is done at almost double the churning speed as gelato, so it puts a lot of more air into it, but the final machine time is still the same, less than 10 minutes.

The freezer temperature must also be on par with the speed obviously, so its like -40º C, a lot more than all home machines, that can only reach that temperature with enough time and only empty, without any heating source like a mix

For example in your case that you like less air in ice creams, then you will put the dasher speed slower, maybe with a gelato setting that is quite slow, or maybe even a little less, and withdraw it at the same time, so it will have less air but everything will be creamy and frozen as it should

 

Those Pacojets are quite intriguing, but I believe they are more for restaurants, where they can leave the ice cream batchs ready, and then just unfrozen it when they need it and the machine does the rest. Not sure about the price of those machines though

Edited by Synerge (log)
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3 hours ago, Synerge said:

And our machines cannot change speed. Unlucky :(

 

Actually, the Kitchen Aid with the freezer bowl set up that @paulraphael prefers, has variable speeds to spin ice cream.

 

3 hours ago, Synerge said:

USA ice creams have really high overrun, maybe 60 70%.

 

Here you're talking about commercial ice creams, not home made stuff.  The Whynter I have now (probably similar to yours) spins much faster than the Lello Gelato previously in my kitchen (for like 15 years). While I think it makes ice cream at least as good, or better than the Lello, it seems that the ice cream is looser when it's finished. A little more quirky than the Lello, but I suppose the more ice cream made in it, the better it will become.

Mitch Weinstein aka "weinoo"

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13 hours ago, weinoo said:

You know, @David Ross, many of the places we go to which are more informal...often, they'll scoop ice cream using a spoon (or 2) (like for us, soup spoons) and make a quenelle:

 

 

Thanks I knew about the quenelle shape but this is very helpful

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This discussion really brings into focus how different our individual definitions of ice cream are.   How different our goal as well as our equipment.   How difficult to perceive much less solve posters' problems.   Even and especially whether ice cream is being made for immediate service, service after a period of ripening or for storage/stock.

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14 hours ago, Synerge said:

 

Actually, I think that the fat relation with taste goes the other way around. For example in USA they increased a lot fat content as it gave the ice cream a different texture and flavour

One thing is certain, while more fat you have, more creamy is the ice cream. Because fat does not freeze, so you have less water, so less ice problems

Obviously, on the other side, fat is extremely unhealthy, specially if you are planning to eat ice cream on a regular basis. A 10% fat content is a lot more balanced, and it comes out great. You can also go for italy's gelatos that go from 4% to 8% top. In argentina, the gelatos usually go from 7% to 10%. For me, 6% is a little to low, 8% sounds better in all the cases. I try to get values between 8 and 10

 

Chocolate is probably the most difficult ice cream to do, because the main compontent, that is chocolate, is quite complex, and changes everything in the formula. It has fats, sugars, solids. Everything. Also, the quality and type of chocolate change everything aswell

Your finding is interesting, you say that with a smaller POD, the chocolate taste doesn't stand out too much. In the contrary, if you increase sweetness, the flavour is better. That maybe depends on the chocolate you are using. Also have in mind that chocolate itself is really high on fat.

Post your recipe so we can check what is going on. Although I have no experiene in this, maybe others that do like chocolate can say something about it. I can only say that chocolate is really bitter, specially if you go more to pure chocolate. Milk chocolate on the other half, or maybe even white chocolate, completely different taste

i am using 50g of an 85% bar and 30g of cocoa powder with 10% fat.  i kept this constant as well as the brand i used so that they dont add additional variability.

 

this experiment made me understand why jeni said it was her hardest flavor to nail and it took her years to find the formula she was happy with.

 

i underestimated sugar in our formulations. i am also thinking that the extra coldness of the ice cream with lower solids and more dextrose might be a factor.  i am trying to get inulin for another round of testing when we finish all the ice cream i made i made a lot lol. next round will actually be just cocoa powder to remove another variable. i will run a 7 percent fat qnd a 10 percent fat milkfat that is and then 1 with a higher sucrose level and another with a higher dextrose level. this is to confirm the findings. this is my 3rd set of experiments. the 4th set will use inulin to match the solids.

 

 

 

 

 

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13 hours ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

The best chocolate ice cream I've made is Rose levy Beranbaum's.

 

rose also uses a low amounr of chocolate only 44g of dark chocolate rated at 62% and 28g of cocoa powder.

 

she uses 63g of glucose syrup and 94g of sucrose plus the sugar in the dark chocolate so again it means she is using majority sucrose to sweeten. and if my guess as of now is correct that long lingering sweetness carries the chocolate taste as well

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8 hours ago, Margaret Pilgrim said:

This discussion really brings into focus how different our individual definitions of ice cream are.   How different our goal as well as our equipment.   How difficult to perceive much less solve posters' problems.   Even and especially whether ice cream is being made for immediate service, service after a period of ripening or for storage/stock.

 

True, we all look for different things in the ice cream. Although I've never heard of anyone saying that gelato is too fluffy or has too much air and wants less. Its understandable in ice cream because it has too much, like 60 70%. Not even talk about supermarket ice creams that have 100% air or more. Is like eating air

 

Serving after churning its almost imposible unless you have a professional machine, it barely comes out, with luck, like a soft ice cream. Of course you can eat that, but its not exactly the best. The consistency and texture is like 50% of the ice cream, the other 50% is the flavor

 

What is different in all of us, is how we percieve tastes. Some will want to increase sweetness when they love sugar, some like Paul hates sweetness and goes to the lower limit, with PODs like 120, that I've never seen any ice cream like that. It probably tastes like a vegan food xD

Some will want a fluffy ice cream with tons of air, some will search for thick ice cream

Some are fine with normal amount of fruits, average 40%. Some love fruits and want to make most of it, adding up to 70%

 

And that makes it great, because with different tastes, we get different ideas and results, so we can try so many. Pretty much every ice cream shop is different between each other, somehow, even when so many uses commercial bases.

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I seldom buy or even then enjoy ice cream shop ice cream.   For me the best is stiff churn followed by an hour or so ripening in the freezer.   Then serve.  I.e., dinner party.  Worry about the leftovers tomorrow.

 

 

 

 

 

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Today I will try another batch of cream. The normal one

If I get that one to be good, then the others are just modifications of it. Specially vanilla, that is pretty much the same formula with the vanilla, and well, if you want, some eggs

 

Tomorrow I will try Dulce de Leche (Milk Caramel), that is a classic in my country. I made it many times. Hopefully this one gets better. As soon as I get this 2 right, I will start with other flavours

Sometimes is good to buy artisanal ice cream of the same flavour (of the shop you like obviously), so you can compare side by side, and that helps you adjusting what is wrong or what should be changed, as we usually consider the true artisanal gelato as the best example of what it should be. From there you can obviously adapt it to your liking

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1 minute ago, Margaret Pilgrim said:

I seldom buy or even then enjoy ice cream shop ice cream.   For me the best is stiff churn followed by an hour or so ripening in the freezer.   Then serve.  I.e., dinner party.  Worry about the leftovers tomorrow.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Really? Why is that?

I went to the USA only 1 time, and tried a few artisanal ice cream shops, but I didn't liked them. They were, mm, strange. Too sweet, or maybe too much fat. Maybe they use sweeteners and colorants, not sure.

I found the supermarket industrial ice cream better, and that is quite strange to be honest. At least I thought that your industrial ice cream was quite better and cheaper than the ones we have here

 

But for the artisanal shops, no, it was too strange. And I absolutely love ice cream, even the worst shops seems ok to me. I obviously notice the differences though, but I dont care that much

Maybe its what Paul said that ice cream is way too sweet, although he seems to love bitter things, so not sure if I can trust him on that. I didn't tried that much neither, but I would love to try them again someday

I heard that there are really good ice creams or gelatos in New York, I believe, that won a spot in the top 10 best ice creams of the world, along with Italy, Argentina and Japan

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@David Ross  I had dinner out at a fabulous, newish restaurant in Brooklyn last night. Only two cooks, no dedicated pastry person (who probably couldn't fit into the kitchen if they tried).

 

Here's how the dessert was served...

 

1685652204_IMG_44682.thumb.jpeg.a4dc3d1bef9cdc1425abef1660d12a87.jpeg

 

I hope that's not a finger indent on the bottom right!!

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Mitch Weinstein aka "weinoo"

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1 hour ago, weinoo said:

@David Ross  I had dinner out at a fabulous, newish restaurant in Brooklyn last night. Only two cooks, no dedicated pastry person (who probably couldn't fit into the kitchen if they tried).

 

Here's how the dessert was served...

 

1685652204_IMG_44682.thumb.jpeg.a4dc3d1bef9cdc1425abef1660d12a87.jpeg

 

I hope that's not a finger indent on the bottom right!!

looks delicious and just the right quenelle shape, now if I can only master pike quenelles......

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9 hours ago, weinoo said:

@David Ross  I had dinner out at a fabulous, newish restaurant in Brooklyn last night. Only two cooks, no dedicated pastry person (who probably couldn't fit into the kitchen if they tried).

 

Here's how the dessert was served...

 

1685652204_IMG_44682.thumb.jpeg.a4dc3d1bef9cdc1425abef1660d12a87.jpeg

 

I hope that's not a finger indent on the bottom right!!

 

The nail looks particulary delicious

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Posted (edited)

cooking 2 batches of avocado ice cream. 1 batch only milk and another batch with some heavy cream to see how the taste would change.

 

a bit of a tip which i learned the hard way before. do not cook your base with the avocado. it will turn bitter! 

 

i usually add fruit at the last moment before chirning but for the last batch i thought cooking would stop the browning and i did not know cooking avocados is bad hehe

 

 

 

Edited by ccp900 (log)
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17 hours ago, ccp900 said:

cooking 2 batches of avocado ice cream. 1 batch only milk and another batch with some heavy cream to see how the taste would change.

 

a bit of a tip which i learned the hard way before. do not cook your base with the avocado. it will turn bitter! 

 

i usually add fruit at the last moment before chirning but for the last batch i thought cooking would stop the browning and i did not know cooking avocados is bad hehe

 

 

 

 

I think that none of the fruits is cooked as it loses its taste

All of them are added after.

Some can be added after the pasteurization, some can be added right before the churning, and some can only be added during the churning

Not sure about dry fruits though, like hazelnuts, chesnuts, etc

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