Gelatin or xanthan gum for ramen soup?

[torolover]

If I wanted to make my Ramen soup thicker, would you recommend using Xanthan gum, or Gelatin?

 

Traditionally Pork or chicken ramen soup is boiled for hours to convert collagen to gelatin, so I figured gelatin is a more natural choice, but I've read some good things about Xanthan gum.

 

How much should I put by percentage and at what temperature?

 

Thanks!

[Deryn]

Do you want the soup to gel? At what temperature? By 'thicker', what do you mean?

 

Gelatin (to my knowledge) will not really 'thicken' at room or higher temperature. Agar will but I don't think you really want to gel your soup, do you? If you want to 'thicken' it, perhaps cornstarch or another similar starch might be your answer?

[Okanagancook]

I have used xanthan to thicken hot and sour soup because I found that the traditional corn starch thickening agent would somehow lose it's thickness after several spoonfuls of soup. My theory is that amylase in saliva breaks it down.

Anyway, the xanthan worked really well. I mixed it with a boat motor in a smaller container using some of the broth. Kinda hit and miss as to how much to use.

Good luck.

[btbyrd]

Use more bones.

[Smithy]

...

Anyway, the xanthan worked really well. I mixed it with a boat motor in a smaller container using some of the broth. Kinda hit and miss as to how much to use.

Good luck.

Er. You used a boat motor to mix it? And you call that a smaller container?

[Tri2Cook]

And when Okanagancook says "the amount is hit or miss", you do not want to miss too far on the too much side. Xanthan, even more so than modified starches like Ultratex, in excessive amounts will leave your broth resembling something you blow out of your nose in texture.

[Okanagancook]

And when Okanagancook says "the amount is hit or miss", you do not want to miss too far on the too much side. Xanthan, even more so than modified starches like Ultratex, in excessive amounts will leave your broth resembling something you blow out of your nose in texture.

Exactly.  A little bit at a time!  

[TylerK]

I add extra gelatin to my soups and stocks all the time.  It doesn't really thicken, but it does give a silkier/creamier mouthfeel, and I find is especially useful in beef broths where the bones don't have much available collagen to break down.   How much I add depends on how well the stock is already gelling.   Generally I add about 1 packet (1tbsp?) of powdered gelatin to 2 litres of stock, sometimes more if the stock doesn't gel at all on its own.  

[scubadoo97]

I add extra gelatin to my soups and stocks all the time. It doesn't really thicken, but it does give a silkier/creamier mouthfeel, and I find is especially useful in beef broths where the bones don't have much available collagen to break down. How much I add depends on how well the stock is already gelling. Generally I add about 1 packet (1tbsp?) of powdered gelatin to 2 litres of stock, sometimes more if the stock doesn't gel at all on its own.

Exactly. When I make stock with bones yes it gels when refrigerated but it's the textural silky mouthfeel that you get when eating it hot. Xanthan will not give the same result although used in moderation will thicken and improve texture

I recently used xanthan to thicken the bag juices from SV'd meats to make a little gravy when serving

[daveb]

I'm just scratching the top of the thickener world but it's my understanding that gelatin is at it's best when thickening cold, usually dairy based, product.  Panna Cotta is a classic desert thickened with a little gelatin.  And is among my favorites.

 

For hot soups or bases xi gum will work well.  I weigh the liquid product and add 0.05 to 0.1% by weight of gum.  For 500 g of liquid thats 0.5 g of gum.  Max.  I used a reloading scale once and I recall that was equivalent of 1/4t.   To incorporate that small amount of gum into a large amount of liquid I shear it in while the Vmix is running.  Use to much gum or incorporate it slowly and it will have that "snot like" mouth feel.   (I do have to admit that I'm old enough to appreciate that none of the whiz bang stuff brings taste and mouth feel to the dish quite like an old fashioned roux.  Heresy!  I know.)

 

Most recently I've been using versa whip as it's said to be more forgiving of less precise measuring.  Ultra Tex is another I would like to know more about.  Would like to find a resource that addressed different thickeners, best applications, ratios for thickening and for foams.  

[Paul Bacino]

Been make two stage soups stocks lately.

 

First stage is for aromatics.. which I will simmer for 2 hrs or so.

 

My second step is then to place all this in a pressure cooker and cook for 1.5 hrs.  this is more a gelatin extraction phase. with just a bit of water, not much.

 

This is what I make my Ramens with combining.

Edited February 18, 2015 by Paul Bacino (log)

[scubadoo97]

Been make two stage soups stocks lately.

First stage is for aromatics.. which I will simmer for 2 hrs or so.

My second step is then to place all this in a pressure cooker and cook for 1.5 hrs. this is more a gelatin extraction phase. with just a bit of water, not much.

This is what I make my Ramens with combining.

What issues have you had with aromatics in the pressure cooker?

[Okanagancook]

Ditto on the mouth feel of xanthan.  A test of one's preference would be in order using some instant stock rather than mess with some nice homemade stock.  I have some chicken feet and pig feet in the freezer which I add to my stocks for extra mouth feel but I will have to try the gelatin addition as a standby.  It's amazing how that naturally derived mouth feel is so good.

 

daveb:  here is link to some info on colloids. They have their latest update which is about the 7th entry down, Feb 15, 2014 is the date:  http://blog.khymos.org/?s=hydrocolloid

[pbear]

Here's a direct link to the Khymos download.

[Paul Bacino]

Scuba..

 

For me!!

 

When simmering meat and bones for a stock, there are two end goals: flavor and body. Flavor mostly comes from meaty bits (either whole pieces of meat used in the stock, or from bits of meat stuck to the bones) and aromatics. The flavorful compounds found in, say, a little bit of chicken meat or an onion can be extracted relatively quickly and are largely temperature-related: they get squeezed out as soon as muscle proteins are heated and contract, or plant cells rupture and spill their contents. Once those compounds are extracted, extended cooking doesn't change things much.

Body, on the other hand, comes from the conversion of connective tissue (mainly collagen) into gelatin through the application of heat in the presence of moisture. This gelatin gives the broth a rich, mouth-coating texture. The process is dependent on both temperature and time, and the two factors are inversely related: the hotter you cook your broth, the faster you'll convert collagen into gelatin.

 

I just think the long time would mute any initial flavor extract.  I have never done a side by side.  just seems to work in my head.

 

Cheers.

 

Basically my second cook turns in to gelatin with a we bit of flavor.. think those old fashion.."   Knox Blocks  "

Edited February 18, 2015 by Paul Bacino (log)

[scubadoo97]

I was wondering if you felt the PC muted the aromatic flavors

I toss it all into the PC and let it go for a couple of hours

[scubadoo97]

I was wondering if you felt the PC muted the aromatic flavors

I toss it all into the PC and let it go for a couple of hours

[Deryn]

I got the impression that torolover perhaps was not making his own ramen broth - just from his phrasing - and wanted to imitate a home made broth by 'thickening' a powdered packet one.

 

It kind of leaves us discussing in a vacuum when an initial post can be interpreted many ways and the original poster doesn't return to clarify/answer questions posed by contributors. I am sorry if I misinterpreted the question/circumstances when I answered early on - though I am certain the discussion and inputs here (all good in my opinion) may be very useful to someone, if not torolover. I hope someone hit the nail on the head for him. I know I have learned a few things too. Thank you all.

[pbear]

Once those compounds are extracted, extended cooking doesn't change things much.

 

Sounds like you're setting aside the stock from Step 1, then putting the solids in the pressure cooker with a little fresh water.  Is that right?

 

[torolover]

Scuba..

 

For me!!

 

When simmering meat and bones for a stock, there are two end goals: flavor and body. 

Cheers.

 

Thanks for the tips everyone! My goal is to make the ultimate thick chicken ramen broth.

 

For flavor I'm pressure cooking chicken breast for flavor.  Serious eats said chicken breast will give better flavor for broth then other parts of the chicken.

 

For body I'm thinking of using xantham gum or gelatin.  I don't want to use chicken feet or wings for collagen because I don't want to mess up the pure flavor of the chicken breast.

 

I plan on simmering aromatics for only 45 min since recipes from French Laundry, Manresa, and other Michelin star cookbooks only simmer veggies for short periods to get a fresher flavor.

 

Any tips?

 

Thanks!

[scubadoo97]

I would think wings and feet would up the pure chicken flavor

[TylerK]

If I remember correctly, that Serious Eats/Food Lab article also indicated that even though the breast broth had the most flavour, it also lacked body and suggested adding chicken feet or powdered gelatin to improve it.  I don't think that xanthan gum would give the broth quite the same feel, but then I tend to stay away from it because of few slimy meals.  

 

Also, the broth he made for that article, and the broth usually made for ramen tend to be very different beasts.  There's a different Serious Eats article here where he makes broth for ramen.

Edited February 19, 2015 by TylerK (log)

[torolover]

I would think wings and feet would up the pure chicken flavor

I have compared chicken feet broth compared to chicken breast broth.  Chicken feet broth, though gelatinous, tastes musty.  This is why I'm thinking of adding gelatin instead of adding chicken feet.

[scubadoo97]

I have compared chicken feet broth compared to chicken breast broth. Chicken feet broth, though gelatinous, tastes musty. This is why I'm thinking of adding gelatin instead of adding chicken feet.

interesting. Wings I've used but never used feet. Not easy to come by in my area

[daveb]

Musty?  You've got to wash their feet!  For an Asian stock I like wings and feets but no veg.  For a Western stock its mire poix, wings and chicken parts - necks, backs, whatever else is in the freezer.  Took pic for friend who asked how I made clear stock.

 

 

 

 

Again if you want to add something extra, everything I've read on subject suggests that gelatin is better used in cold product.  Xi gum and/or Versawhip in hot product.