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Serious Eats say bones have no flavor. True or not?


torolover

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I read an article from Serious Eats that bones don't have flavor.  Is this true?

 

If bones don't have flavor why do people boil bones for stock?  You can get gelatin from other sources of meat.

 

For example if you are looking looking to make pork stock, why not just pressure cook pork shoulder.  Pork shoulder has lots of gelatin for body and meat for flavor.

 

Also why roast bones for sauces if bones have no flavor?

 

Ok, so there is some meat around the bones, but isn't it better to just to pan fry the meat for flavor?

Edited by torolover (log)
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Bones have more collagen in them than a tough cut of meat does and they tend to be cheaper than meat. Most stock recipes that call for bones advise you to use bones that still have a fair bit of meat attached. If I can't find sufficiently meaty bones, I'll up the meat quotient by browning some ground meat and adding that to the pressure cooker/stock pot. Roasting bones before stockmaking will denature the proteins enough so that you don't have to blanch them. Blanching is a real pain... bring bones to a boil, drain, scrub, return to pot, and bring to a simmer? I'd rather not. It also brings out roasty flavor from the bones themselves that are hard to develop by just pan frying.

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Bones have more collagen in them than a tough cut of meat does and they tend to be cheaper than meat. Most stock recipes that call for bones advise you to use bones that still have a fair bit of meat attached. If I can't find sufficiently meaty bones, I'll up the meat quotient by browning some ground meat and adding that to the pressure cooker/stock pot. Roasting bones before stockmaking will denature the proteins enough so that you don't have to blanch them. Blanching is a real pain... bring bones to a boil, drain, scrub, return to pot, and bring to a simmer? I'd rather not. It also brings out roasty flavor from the bones themselves that are hard to develop by just pan frying.

Thanks for the tips btbyrd!

 

Are you saying the bones itself has a lot of collagen?  Or is the meat that is around the bone that has a lot of collagen?

 

I'm not sure it's cheaper to buy bones then simply buy meat.  For example if you buy 16 ounce of of bones, for $1, and there is only 2 ounce of meat on the bones, you are actually paying $8 a pound for the meat!  If the bones don't do anything, isn't it cheaper and better to simply buy meat that has a lot of collagen?

 

I'm curious because I'm trying to make the best thick ramen soup.

Edited by torolover (log)
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Are you saying the bones itself has a lot of collagen?  Or is the meat that is around the bone that has a lot of collagen?

 

I'm not sure it's cheaper to buy bones then simply buy meat.  For example if you buy 16 ounce of of bones, for $1, and there is only 2 ounce of meat on the bones, you are actually paying $8 a pound for the meat!  If the bones don't do anything, isn't it cheaper and better to simply buy meat that has a lot of collagen?

 

Bones are made mostly of collagen, which provides the basic framework for bone. Calcium and other minerals bind to this framework and harden it into a tough, solid structure. There's much more collagen by weight in bones than there is in even something like cheek or short rib. Oxtail is pretty much the best of all possible worlds since it has a lot of flavorful meat, connective tissue, and bone as well. For chickens, wings occupy this role. For hogs, I usually use neck bones and throw in some chicken feet for extra collagen.

 

As for the economic point, it obviously varies depending on how the bones were butchered. Sometimes my grocer has very lean bones with very little meat attached; other times the same store sells bones that have more meat than bone on them! I try to think of broth making in terms of ratios of meat to bones. It's hard to be precise with it, but if my bones are lean I supplement with ground meat; if they're really meaty, I don't. Bones are usually the cheapest cut at the store, with ground meat being the next cheapest thing. But regardless of what you're doing, it's important to use a fair amount of meat and bones relative to the water used. The problem with most people's homemade stock is that they use too much water (or not enough animal) and it ends up relatively tasteless.

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btbird and dcarch, thanks for the great info!!  

 

Now this make sense!  I was thinking, if bones don't have collagen or flavor, what's the point?   Now I understand that bones are mostly collagen.

 

I guess Ramen chefs were right to keep boiling the bones until they get lots of collagen and gelatin into their broths.

 

dcarch, I will try that, buy some beef tendon and pressure cook it!  This will help make a really thick beef ramen soup!

Edited by torolover (log)
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Certain styles of ramen (e.g. tonkotsu) require that you boil broth not only to extract gelatin, but also to emulsify fat into the broth. The traditional French wisdom about stock making is that you should keep your stocks at a light simmer because boiling them makes them cloudy; tonkotsu turns this wisdom on its head, using the agitation caused by boiling to create a milky looking broth that's rich in fat.

 

Pressure cooking is the best way to extract gelatin from bones and tough cuts (unless you've got a day or two to simmer your stock). It also produces relatively clear stock because there's little agitation from boiling inside (unless you're venting loads of steam or you do a "fast release" of pressure). At the moment, I'm making Momofuku ramen broth. I take half the water and pressure cook roasted pork bones in it, while using the other half to create the kombu/mushroom/bacon/chicken broth. Then I add the pork to the dashi, add carrot and onions, and simmer for an hour or so, skimming frequently. An 8 hour (or more) recipe gets a lot fast when you use a pressure cooker.

 

Here are my unroasted pork neck bones; they were super-meaty (not so boney) this go round so I added some chicken feet to compensate. $1.99 a lb from the Whole Foods. Not bad!

 

ramen_bones.jpg

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Interesting! I didn't know you could liberate collagen from hard bone. Does this suggest mean that bones of any type will eventually break down in a pressure cooker? What's left from that matrix if you render all the collagen?

 

P.S. when I see $1.99/lb at whole foods, I worry that those are the neck bones of employees who asked for time off.

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Notes from the underbelly

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The other thing to keep in mind when looking at recipes is that often stock or soup has been used as a way of using up odd bits and pieces - so a recipe may call for bones or a carcass even though that isn't necessarily the best ingredient if cost is no object.

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Interesting! I didn't know you could liberate collagen from hard bone. Does this suggest mean that bones of any type will eventually break down in a pressure cooker? What's left from that matrix if you render all the collagen?

 

P.S. when I see $1.99/lb at whole foods, I worry that those are the neck bones of employees who asked for time off.

 

Denis Papin is credited with inventing the pressure cooker, though he called it the "steam digester." Papin's digester was also nicknamed the "bone digester." He wrote two texts on his machine: "A New Digester or Engine for Softening Bones" (1681) and "A Continuation of the New Digester of Bones, Together With Some Improvements and New Uses of the Air Pump" (1687). So yeah, bones will soften and break down in a pressure cooker. Chicken bones will fall apart with little provocation after a round of stock making. Beef and pork bones are heartier, but they'll break down after enough time. They still look like bones, but you can pulverize them between your fingers.

Edited by btbyrd (log)
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Depends on the age of the bones.

Bones from older animals are definitely harder.

The bones of young chickens will soften easily and contain a lot of collagen.

The bones of older chickens take longer, often much longer, to soften.

~Martin :)

I just don't want to look back and think "I could have eaten that."

Unsupervised, rebellious, radical agrarian experimenter, minimalist penny-pincher, and adventurous cook. Crotchety, cantankerous, terse curmudgeon, non-conformist, and contrarian who questions everything!

The best thing about a vegetable garden is all the meat you can hunt and trap out of it!

 

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I have read the article in question..If I remember correctly  the main point  of the article was about flavour in dishes where you are roasting ,searing, etc  not boiling or braising. Example being bone in roasts or steaks and chops.  I understand the theory  but still prefer bone in  for steaks and roasts , even if it doesn't add flavour. There is just something atavistic about meat on the bone that makes it  satisfying to me.

 

They went on to talk about   boiling or braising and that  good results depended on breaking or sawing the bones open to expose the marrow , and  making sure to have a good amount of connective tissues still attached. ( sinews, cartilage , tendons etc)  Whole bones just don't give much flavour , as it takes a long time to dissolve through the bone.  

Add to that the problem of denaturing the proteins too quickly and clogging many of the pores in the bone if you actually boil  or hard simmer them  them instead of slowly simmering.  It was a revelation after I actually learned to  simmered a chicken carcass properly , the bones would be so weak at the end they  crumble easily.  I had always done it at  a much more aggressive simmer in the past and the bones would only give up a small amount of collagen and never got to that weak crumbly point.  . 

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"Why is the rum always gone?"

Captain Jack Sparrow

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I'm a broth person. I love soups of various kinds, mostly non-creamed, but truth be told I am very happy with a mug of strong broth, be it chicken, turkey or beef. A little squeeze of lime in turkey broth never hurts. My freezer is mainly a stock and broth staging area.

Plain bones may not contribute to flavor much, but they definitely add health benefits and emotional support. It just feels good to have a few bones in the soup pot. My best stocks and broths are the result of variety. Chicken stock needs wings, backs and feet and benefit from a fair amount of meat on the bone. Turkey stocks are especially good when made from roasted parts--necks and wings. Of course having a roasted chicken or turkey carcass is a gift from heaven. Beef stocks are richest when made from lots of cuts and various bones: oxtail, shank, marrow bones, veal knuckle, whatever. I just make an assumption that everything contributes in some positive way.

I don't dwell on the difference between stock and broth; there seems to be one, but it's a rather murky distinction. Most definitions of stock imply that you wouldn't want to drink it straight, that it's meant as a cooking ingredient. My technique is a short cut, I guess. If a recipe calls for a stock or braising liquid I might dilute my broth a bit before using.

If I had to pick a source for where I found stock and broth tips when I first started cooking, I guess I would name Julia Child. Her basic rules seem to be to throw lots of meat and bones into water, add a bit of onion, carrot, whatever, simmer very low for several hours and don't cover the pot.

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Whether bones contribute flavor or not, it is very important to have bones.

 

Considering as humans, we have been hunting and chewing on bones for millions of years. We need to satisfy our DNA to eat more than just boneless breast filets.

 

dcarch

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If I had to pick a source for where I found stock and broth tips when I first started cooking, I guess I would name Julia Child. Her basic rules seem to be to throw lots of meat and bones into water, add a bit of onion, carrot, whatever, simmer very low for several hours and don't cover the pot.

Edited by torolover (log)
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Folks say lots of stuff....what matters is what tastes best to YOU!

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~Martin :)

I just don't want to look back and think "I could have eaten that."

Unsupervised, rebellious, radical agrarian experimenter, minimalist penny-pincher, and adventurous cook. Crotchety, cantankerous, terse curmudgeon, non-conformist, and contrarian who questions everything!

The best thing about a vegetable garden is all the meat you can hunt and trap out of it!

 

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Serious Eats tried to find out which part of the chicken taste best for chicken stock.  They tested breast, thighs, back, wings and whole chicken.  Surprisingly they found breast has the best and most intense chicken flavor!

Edited by Shel_B (log)

 ... Shel


 

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Thanks for everyone's tips!  There is so much new research with broths that the traditional way of making broths may not be the best.

 

Serious Eats tried to find out which part of the chicken taste best for chicken stock.  They tested breast, thighs, back, wings and whole chicken.  Surprisingly they found breast has the best and most intense chicken flavor!

 

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I need gelatin in a stock, so it will get rich(need a better word) upon reduction.  I pressure cook turkey carcasses and necks along with onions and carrots and maybe a schmear of tomato paste.

 

I love turkey stock, but I find it a bit too strongly flavored for everything I'd use chicken stock for.

 

I keep turkey, chicken, duck and beef stock in the freezer. Usually I reach for the turkey, but never for fish or chicken dishes.

 

I guess I use turkey stock mostly for soups...lots of depth in the flavor.

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