Ideal internal temp for Boston butt? at 200F, came out dry!

[torolover]

What is the ideal internal temp for Boston Butt?  I'm looking for the juiciest but falling apart pork.

 

I cooked a Heritage 5 pound Boston Butt in a 300F oven for 5 hours until the internal temp was 200F.  It came out a little dry.  Some parts were OK, but it wasn't the transcendent pork I was hoping for.

 

The Momofuku Bo Saam recipe said to cook for 6 hours, but I took it out of the oven after 5 hours since I read the ideal temp is 200F.

 

If I take it out at 200F, isn't the temp going to rise another 10 or 15 degrees?

Edited December 26, 2014 by torolover (log)

[chileheadmike]

I generally shoot for 195 but at 200 is should not have been dry. That's just about right. 

 

By definition to be able to pull it, it should be falling apart. 

[Norm Matthews]

Boston butt is pork that does not lend itself to dry roast in a moderate oven.  It is better braised in dutch oven with a moist atmosphere for long periods to break down the collagen. 190 is a good target temperature but it should be  BBQ roasted or braised for a long time at around 225 or so. Allow 60 to 90 minutes per pound.  The lower temperature will produce a more moist shoulder roast.

Edited December 26, 2014 by Norm Matthews (log)

[dcarch]

I sous vide 24 hours at 150F.

 

Works very well.

 

 

dcarch

[mgaretz]

I'm with Norm. I smoke mine at 225f but shoot for an internal temperature of 203f. Takes between 10 and 12 hours.

[gfweb]

I do mine SV as well. 150 for 24h.

 

I have a 180F crockpot that I used to use  ===>  a little overcooked result

[djyee100]

Wow, where are you guys getting these high internal temps for cooked pork? Trichinosis dies at 137F. The conservative FDA used to say internal temp of 160F for cooked pork roast, but changed its recs a couple years ago to 145F.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/25/dining/porks-safe-cooking-temperature-is-lowered.html

 

Also see Bruce Aidells and Denis Kelly, The Complete Meat Cookbook, page 246, on Googlebooks:
https://books.google.com/books?id=ExCYBwIzym0C&printsec=frontcover&dq=complete+meat+cookbook&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ZbWdVPb-MZHfoATlxYKoAw&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=pork%20final%20temperature&f=false

 

I've cooked this six-hour pork roast with excellent results:
http://www.epicurious.com/recipes/food/views/Six-Hour-Pork-Roast-102530

 

I've oven-braised pork with this method: Season 3 lbs pork butt and put it with 1 cup apple juice in Dutch oven. Preheat oven to 400F. Put pork in the oven, immediately reduce heat to 200F, and cook for 6 hrs.

[gfweb]

Wow, where are you guys getting these high internal temps for cooked pork? Trichinosis dies at 137F. The conservative FDA used to say internal temp of 160F for cooked pork roast, but changed its recs a couple years ago to 145F.

 

 

The issue isn't food safety but tenderizing a tough cut.  If you want "falling apart" meat it takes time and some temp to gelatinize collagen.

[weinoo]

Boston butt is pork that does not lend itself to dry roast in a moderate oven.  It is better braised in dutch oven with a moist atmosphere for long periods to break down the collagen. 190 is a good target temperature but it should be  BBQ roasted or braised for a long time at around 225 or so. Allow 60 to 90 minutes per pound.  The lower temperature will produce a more moist shoulder roast.

While it might be "better" braised in a Dutch oven, I've had pretty good luck roasting at 275 until done.

[Ashen]

did you cook it to the bo ssam recipe or just follow the heat/time recommendations.   The recipe calls for a dry brine  that could help with your  juiciness problem .  

 

is your oven temp true, a secondary oven thermo is a good idea. 

 

shape of the roast can have all kinds of effects on how it cooks.   a 5 lb long thinner cylinder shaped roast cooks much faster than a 5 lb ball shaped roast. 

 

low and slow is the traditional way to get a good result with pulled pork but there are ways of going hotter faster that work as well.  Myron Mixon is the most winning pro BBQ guy ever and he regularly wins, power cooking his butts and briskets, in as little as 1/3 of the time as his competitors. if I remember correctly the   method relies on injecting  before cooking , cooking uncovered in high humidity /high heat  to a certain temp, also when he imparts smoke, then wrapped in foil and finished at a higher heat. 

Edited December 26, 2014 by Ashen (log)

[gdenby]

My guess is that the butt was somewhat dry because oven cooking at 300 will drive off a lot of moisture on the outside. And not being "transcendent" is probably because there wasn't any wood smoke in the oven to provide the spice flavors that traditional BBQ makes.

 

And was there a rub on the butt? W/o one it is hard to form the "bark" adds so much flavor.

 

There are too many variables for an ideal temp. What one wants is the point where the butt feels gelatinous, and a tug on the bone starts to pull it away from the meat.

 

Any meat that is cooked looses water. My recollection is that near the mid 120F range, the meat protein begins to de-nature, and squeeze water out. The problem is that the connective tissue collagen doesn't break down at that temperature. Many cuts such as the butt have lots of collagen (and hopefully lots of fat.) If cooked to a low temperature, 145 for instance, ta butt may be moist but very tough.

 

If cooked to a higher temperature, the collagen turns to gel, and that compensates for the loss of water. Likewise, the fat melts and lubricates the meat. Around 180F internal temp the break down is fairly quick. It is usual for the meat texture to be best around 200F +/- 5.

 

But that is just an average. The amount of fat, and/or the amount of exercise the animal had are the real determinants, so one must just pay attention, and cook till the piece starts to be wobbly to the touch.

[djyee100]

The issue isn't food safety but tenderizing a tough cut.  If you want "falling apart" meat it takes time and some temp to gelatinize collagen.

 

But pork is pretty tender to begin with. I'm not necessarily contradicting you about these high internal temps, because I don't bother with thermometers. After a long slow cooking time, I know the pork is cooked sufficiently, and the only issue is tenderness. I stick a fork in it. If it feels soft as butter, it's done.

 

About collagen. As an aside, Aidells-Kelly (my link upthread) note that pork is different from beef in how it cooks and tenderizes.

from the Aidells-Kelly book--

page 245:

The connective tissue in pork becomes harder and less elastic as its temperature increases to 160F and above, with the result that it tends to push moisture out of the meat.

 

page 251:

Pork suitable for braising must contain sufficient intramuscular fat. Unlike tough cuts of beef, which become soft and silky after long cooking, lean pork gets drier and harder as it cooks, eventually falling apart into dry strings. That's because it doesn't contain much collagen, as does beef, but it does have another connective tissue, called elastin, which doesn't dissolve an soften during moist cooking. Instead, it shrinks and gets hard.

 

 

Apparently elastin doesn't tenderize no matter how long you cook it, according to this blog.

http://www.thekitchn.com/what-is-gristle-66813

 

Aidells-Kelly say roast pork butt should read 150-155 degrees, with final temp 5-10 degrees higher after resting. Braised pork butt should register 160-165 degrees on an instant-read thermometer, with final temp of 170-175 degrees after resting. These are the guidelines I would use (if I bothered with thermometers  ).

 

 

While it might be "better" braised in a Dutch oven, I've had pretty good luck roasting at 275 until done.

 

I've had good results with roasting pork shoulder at that oven temp also.

[Martin Fisher]

It's essentially pulled pork, not just tender pork...tender is subjective...flaky pullable is flaky pullable...it's ready when it's ready.

 

Momofuku's Bo Ssam

[rlibkind]

The longer a piece of pork, beef or lamb hangs under 190F the better, at least in the case of braises using tougher cuts. Harold McGhee recommends putting braises into a cold oven then setting thermostat to 200F. This permits the meat to remain on collagen-melting environment of about 165-195 F internal temp for an extended period, usually 3 hours from start time til you raise oven temp to 225 for last hour of cooking. Works every time for me with braised, tho I haven't done a dry roast this way, nor would I try.

Edited December 26, 2014 by rlibkind (log)

[Dave W]

Djyee you're suffering from a foundational misunderstanding here. Lean pork as described in your post is not the same as tough pork you would find in a shoulder. That meat is not "tender" by any measure unless you tenderize it mechanically (grinding) or by cooking.

Torolover if the meat shredded easily but was dry it's overcooked. If it didn't fall apart but was dry it's undercooked, and the gelatin hasn't rendered fully to release it's moisture. BBQ shredded pork as noted above is effectively what you're dealing with here and unlike lean pork or steaks it's not as simple of an equation as internal temperature.

You wrote it was heritage pork which could mean different thing depending on the breed. But most heritage pork is fattier than commercial pork rather than leaner.

A final possibility is that you got a cut other than shoulder that was mislabeled. Even the shoulder picnic for example dries out easier than the shoulder butt.

Edited December 26, 2014 by Dave W (log)

[torolover]

Thanks for the tips everyone!  Yes I did dry brine it with salt and sugar the night before.

 

I'm going to try it again, but this time with a smaller boneless Boston Butt so I don't have too much leftovers.

 

I assume it would take less time because it's smaller.

 

Should I take it off the oven right when it hits 200F? Or should I take it off at 190F because after it rests the carryover heat will bring it to 200F?

 

I will use the fork test and twist it to test for doneness as well.

[djyee100]

Djyee you're suffering from a foundational misunderstanding here. Lean pork as described in your post is not the same as tough pork you would find in a shoulder...

 

No, I was talking about pork shoulder. But as DDF says upthread, tender is subjective. I admit I'm OK with chewier meat compared to some others. What I didn't get was that the OP wanted pulled pork rather than pork roast. I've only cooked pulled pork in an oven maybe once, at a lower temp than the Momofuko recipe, with some liquid in the pan (i.e., it was braising). Don't ask me what the final internal temp was. It was very tender and falling apart at the end of cooking time, so I considered it done.

 

There was a classic article in Cook's Illustrated about pot roast long ago. The upshot was that for beef chuck you should cook it to death, then cook it some more so that the collagen dissolves. Beef has plenty of collagen, so that heavy duty cooking makes sense. It's my understanding that pork has less collagen compared to beef (how much less I don't know), so I would be more cautious about cooking it to death, even for cuts like pork shoulder. Just some thoughts since we're talking about overcooked, dry pork here.

 

Torolover, are you going to do anything different besides a smaller piece of meat and a shorter cooking time? Because some people here have suggested a lower cooking temp and some moisture in the method.

[cyalexa]

I also slow-roast my pork shoulder, covered. I apply a thick coating of dry-rub the night before. Put the meat in a covered LC dutch oven. Next day, put it in a preheated 350F oven and immediately reduce the oven temp to 225F and cook to an internal temp of 190F, about 6 hours. What I do next depends on how and when I want to serve the meat. It can "wait" for me, either in the turned off oven or on the counter for up to a couple hours. One of my favorite things to do is put the rested roast on a rack in a shallow pan and put it in a 500F oven to get a nice crust. 

Edited December 27, 2014 by cyalexa (log)

[Norm Matthews]

Thanks for the tips everyone!  Yes I did dry brine it with salt and sugar the night before.

 

I'm going to try it again, but this time with a smaller boneless Boston Butt so I don't have too much leftovers.

 

I assume it would take less time because it's smaller.

 

Should I take it off the oven right when it hits 200F? Or should I take it off at 190F because after it rests the carryover heat will bring it to 200F?

 

I will use the fork test and twist it to test for doneness as well.

With pork shoulder butt, a longer time is  important.  Cook it at a low temperature in a covered container with a little liquid.  Allow 60 minutes per pound, then check the temp.  190 to 200 is good. As somebody said, it is ready when it is ready. 

Edited December 27, 2014 by Norm Matthews (log)

[dcarch]

Sous vided, smoked pulled pork at 150F 24 hours.

 

Tender, juicy.

 

dcarch

 

[Dave W]

Beautiful pork! Just a great example of the tenderness equation being time-at-temperature rather than only final temperature.

[Ashen]

Thanks for the tips everyone!  Yes I did dry brine it with salt and sugar the night before.

 

I'm going to try it again, but this time with a smaller boneless Boston Butt so I don't have too much leftovers.

 

I assume it would take less time because it's smaller.

 

Should I take it off the oven right when it hits 200F? Or should I take it off at 190F because after it rests the carryover heat will bring it to 200F?

 

I will use the fork test and twist it to test for doneness as well.

 

 

My own experience with  low and slow bbq is that it takes repetition to really nail this down to a perfect cook, there is no exact temp that guarantees the perfect shoulder to pull.  At ~190 f  I start testing the feel of the meat by pushing on it with my fingers;  somewhere between 190 and 205  there will be a point where it just has the right soft and almost jelly feel to it.   To the best of my knowledge this variation is down to slight differences in  fat content and its distribution, and the inherent differences in tenderness between different animals. 

 

edit... I just remembered, I had to take one up to 210 once to get to that point. that was a bit of a nerve wracking day as I thought something had gone wrong and I was ruining it by going to such a high temp. 

Edited December 27, 2014 by Ashen (log)

[rotuts]

fantastic " pulled pork " has been made for eons.

 

what SV brings to the Pig is consistency and fool-proof-ery, assuming you get 'good' pork.

 

you SV to your liking, then smoke the resulted cooked pork at about the same temp in your smoker/weber-smoker

 

and that way you take a great deal of the variability of results off the table.

[dcarch]

I keep the following in mind when I am dealing with meat, any meat:

 

Once temperature gets up to above 212F, as long as there is still water in the meat, no amount of heat can get the temperature higher than 212F, whether the oven is 213F or 600F. (except in a microwave oven).

 

Once the outside temperature gets to a certain point, the rate of temperature travel to get to the interior is fixed, and is distance dependent to the center. It is not dependent on the weight of meat.

 

Meat texture only knows temperature and how long it stays at that temperature.

 

dcarch

[gfweb]

I keep the following in mind when I am dealing with meat, any meat:

 

Once temperature gets up to above 212F, as long as there is still water in the meat, no amount of heat can get the temperature higher than 212F, whether the oven is 213F or 600F. (except in a microwave oven).

 

Once the outside temperature gets to a certain point, the rate of temperature travel to get to the interior is fixed, and is distance dependent to the center. It is not dependent on the weight of meat.

 

Meat texture only knows temperature and how long it stays at that temperature.

 

dcarch

 

True enough re texture.

 

Meat moisture though can be increased by increasing humidity in the oven...eg with a combi (steam) oven.  I've seen studies comparing loss of weight during cooking between conventional and steam ovens...steam preserves something like 20% more weight over dry heat.  It'd be interesting to compare combi vs braising.