Food stories: Conflicts Sur la Table from when you were Very Very Young

[Franci]

Moderator note: Many of these posts were shifted here from the Dinner 2014 (Part 6) discussion, after this initial post started a vigorous debate.

 

Shrimps with piri-piri oil and lemon garlic butter, kale and chickpeas, small plate of guanciale, salame and grana. Salmon and steamed potatoes for the children

Edited November 8, 2014 by ChrisTaylor
Moderation comment added. (log)

[c oliver]

Shrimps with piri-piri oil and lemon garlic butter, kale and chickpeas, small plate of guanciale, salame and grana. Salmon and steamed potatoes for the children

You cooked TWO meals?????  Hopefully THAT'S rare.  But sounds great.

[Franci]

You cooked TWO meals?????  Hopefully THAT'S rare.  But sounds great.

Not that rare, actually. My children are 3.5 and 7 and they don't always like what we eat. Children's palate needs to be educated, it takes time.. but I'm positive they will get there soon or later.

[c oliver]

Not that rare, actually. My children are 3.5 and 7 and they don't always like what we eat. Children's palate needs to be educated, it takes time.. but I'm positive they will get there soon or later.

Our daughters, who are now mothers themselves, were always good eaters.  But we lived in the San Francisco area so they got exposed to things early.  They also got expensive early  Especially with cheeses!

[JoNorvelleWalker]

Not that rare, actually. My children are 3.5 and 7 and they don't always like what we eat. Children's palate needs to be educated, it takes time.. but I'm positive they will get there soon or later.

 

As a parent of two, I would never prepare two meals.  You eat what's for dinner or you don't eat!

[c oliver]

As a parent of two, I would never prepare two meals.  You eat what's for dinner or you don't eat!

I'm afraid (not really!) that I agree with you.  When our daughters were young, we compromised so that all four of us were happy with the meal.  Two meals?  No.  Ever?  Really no.

[mm84321]

As a parent of two, I would never prepare two meals.  You eat what's for dinner or you don't eat!

 

You sound like a reasonable human being. 

Edited November 7, 2014 by mm84321 (log)

[huiray]

I don't recall ever being served a "separate" meal by my mother when I was growing up.  We all ate together, for the most part, "at table" - and ate whatever was placed upon the table.  I hated mushrooms and liver, yes, when I was young - and was allowed to pick those aside or not scoop them up from the communal dish (I ate in a "Chinese Communal Dining" situation) but was not allowed to refuse to eat "everything and anything on the table".  There were also times when I was made to sit at the table until I ate at least an acceptable amount of whateveriwasrefusing - and my tears did not matter one whit.  No, it was not "child abuse" (to those politically-correct Western folks who might think this way nowadays) and I did not think it so even then nor even now.  It was a situation where I learned about various foods as part of the culinary experience.

[mm84321]

As Franci stated, a child's palette needs to be slowly developed and gradually acquainted to certain flavors and tastes. Too often the approach is to simply dictate that your son/daughter is to finish whatever vegetable/meat you've put on their plate, rather than allow them to gain an appreciation for these sorts of things on their own, when they themselves are ready to do so. It is unfortunate, as this often results in children developing an aversion to certain foods that they may otherwise would have enjoyed if they were given a chance to. In addition, it is often the case that children develop aversions to certain things like vegetables due to the fact that their first experience of eating them was in a rather unappealing fashion, or they were simply not prepared properly. For example, my mother grew up in the 60's, a time when it was very hard to find fresh vegetables, and the norm of the day was usually eating those which were sold in cans. Her only experience of asparagus and Brussels Sprouts were canned, so she naturally developed a strong dislike until may years later when I reintroduced her palette to them, buying fresh and preparing them as I do. 

 

I do not believe in forcing anything upon a child. It is an authoritarian form of parenting that does more harm than good. Franci's meals are always beautifully prepared, and I am sure her children will greatly benefit from having a mother who is both accommodating to their likes/dislikes, and a damn good home cook. 

[c oliver]

As Franci stated, a child's palette needs to be slowly developed and gradually acquainted to certain flavors and tastes. Too often the approach is to simply dictate that your son/daughter is to finish whatever vegetable/meat you've put on their plate, rather than allow them to gain an appreciation for these sorts of things on their own, when they themselves are ready to do so. It is unfortunate, as this often results in children developing an aversion to certain foods that they may otherwise would have enjoyed if they were given a chance to. In addition, it is often the case that children develop aversions to certain things like vegetables due to the fact that their first experience of eating them was in a rather unappealing fashion, or they were simply not prepared properly. For example, my mother grew up in the 60's, a time when it was very hard to find fresh vegetables, and the norm of the day was usually eating those which were sold in cans. Her only experience of asparagus and Brussels Sprouts were canned, so she naturally developed a strong dislike until may years later when I reintroduced her palette to them, buying fresh and preparing them as I do. 

 

I do not believe in forcing anything upon a child. It is an authoritarian form of parenting that does more harm than good. Franci's meals are always beautifully prepared, and I am sure her children will greatly benefit from having a mother who is both accommodating to their likes/dislikes, and a damn good home cook. 

I don't believe anyone is saying to force anyone to eat anything they truly loathe.  First they'd have to take a bit to even know this.  But to prepare two meals seems a bit much to me.  PS:  the word is "palate."

[mm84321]

I don't believe anyone is saying to force anyone to eat anything they truly loathe.  First they'd have to take a bit to even know this.  But to prepare two meals seems a bit much to me.  PS:  the word is "palate."

 

Is it not somehow implied in stating that if they don't want to eat what you make, they can go to bed without food? It is no great effort to cook a piece of fish on the side of whatever you are already making. 

 

I appreciate the spell check. You'll have to excuse me. I dropped out after a semester of college. 

[rotuts]

Id be happy to eat at Franci's 'child's table'  Anytime.

 

when the adults were not paying attention Id snarf up some of that

 

"""    guanciale, salame and grana  """

 

an a gulp or too of an Adult Personal Beverage , the kind that came from a bottle w a cork.

 

no problem for me at all .

[c oliver]

Is it not somehow implied in stating that if they don't want to eat what you make, they can go to bed without food? It is no great effort to cook a piece of fish on the side of whatever you are already making. 

 

I appreciate the spell check. You'll have to excuse me. I dropped out after a semester of college. 

She prepared two totally different meals.  I find it hard to believe that they wouldn't eat ANY of the things the adults ate.  And if, say, piri-piri is a bit much for a child's 'palate' (too many years of the nuns!), then put it on the adults' only.  Compromise but don't capitulate.

[huiray]

In regards to at least one aspect of the discussion - the hatred of vegetables seems, to me, to be an especially Western phenomenon. I have always found it odd.  I grew up in a situation where (as many others like me, and countless others through millennia in E/SE Asia) vegetables were part of the daily table and were absorbed into one's experience and expectations.  Perhaps it is the case that this is not the case in Western cuisines (which the popular narrative would have us believe) but this would be one aspect of learning to like various stuff that is NOT predicated on what one experiences as a child in the Western World.

[mm84321]

She prepared two totally different meals.  I find it hard to believe that they wouldn't eat ANY of the things the adults ate.  And if, say, piri-piri is a bit much for a child's 'palate' (too many years of the nuns!), then put it on the adults' only.  Compromise but don't capitulate.

 

She cooked a piece of fish and steamed some potatoes. She did not make a bouillabaisse. And even if she did, who are you to judge what she chooses to feed her children? The health of every American child would be greatly improved if they sat down each night to a meal like the ones Franci prepares. 

[c oliver]

In regards to at least one aspect of the discussion - the hatred of vegetables seems, to me, to be an especially Western phenomenon. I have always found it odd.  I grew up in a situation where (as many others like me, and countless others through millennia in E/SE Asia) vegetables were part of the daily table and were absorbed into one's experience and expectations.  Perhaps it is the case that this is not the case in Western cuisines (which the popular narrative would have us believe) but this would be one aspect of learning to like various stuff that is NOT predicated on what one experiences as a child in the Western World.

Oh, 'ray,' you know that the Western world is addicted to "meat" (that can include fish) and that the meat is the larger portion of the meal. (Of course, this group doesn't represent the 'average.')

[c oliver]

She cooked a piece of fish and steamed some potatoes. She did not make a bouillabaisse. And even if she did, who are you to judge what she chooses to feed her children? The health of every American child would be greatly improved if they sat down each night to a meal like the ones Franci prepares. 

I'm not judging.  I'm saying I wouldn't do it and how I would compromise.  In MY opinion, it's a setup for other conflicts over other things.  For OUR family, it wouldn't be sending a good message.

[mm84321]

I'm not judging.  I'm saying I wouldn't do it and how I would compromise.  In MY opinion, it's a setup for other conflicts over other things.  For OUR family, it wouldn't be sending a good message.

 

OK. That is reasonable. 

[rotuts]

every 2 y.o. is 50 % brat.  Ive seen at least 100,000 of these.  every parent deals w this issue in there own way.

 

there are Chinese Brats, Indian Brats, Anglo Brats etc.

 

that Franci has the energy to take into account her child's 'tastes' is a Gift they will remember for the rest of their long lives

 

and thus pass it on to their own Brats.

 

it is foolish to think otherwise.

 

After WWII, in the book " Apprentice "

 

http://www.amazon.com/Apprentice-My-Life-Kitchen/dp/0618444114/ref=sr_1_3/191-2484868-4947813?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1415382832&sr=1-3&keywords=pepin+jacque

 

JPepin  ( The Food God Himself ! ) recounts life as a small child when food was scare after the war.  One meal was some sort of veg.  He

 

politely pointed out to his mother

 

that this veg. he didnt like.  Mom " but Jacque , ( some sort of FR endearment next ) Its all we have ."

 

worth a read.  he doesnt eat that veg at all now I think I recall, nor does he frequent McDonalds, unless he goes EnDrag.

Edited November 7, 2014 by rotuts (log)

[c oliver]

OK. That is reasonable. 

PS:  My 3 y.o. granddaughter who has always eaten everything, including foie gras, has suddenly decided she doesn't like lettuce  Go figure.

[Honkman]

As Franci stated, a child's palette needs to be slowly developed and gradually acquainted to certain flavors and tastes. Too often the approach is to simply dictate that your son/daughter is to finish whatever vegetable/meat you've put on their plate, rather than allow them to gain an appreciation for these sorts of things on their own, when they themselves are ready to do so. It is unfortunate, as this often results in children developing an aversion to certain foods that they may otherwise would have enjoyed if they were given a chance to. In addition, it is often the case that children develop aversions to certain things like vegetables due to the fact that their first experience of eating them was in a rather unappealing fashion, or they were simply not prepared properly. For example, my mother grew up in the 60's, a time when it was very hard to find fresh vegetables, and the norm of the day was usually eating those which were sold in cans. Her only experience of asparagus and Brussels Sprouts were canned, so she naturally developed a strong dislike until may years later when I reintroduced her palette to them, buying fresh and preparing them as I do. 

 

I do not believe in forcing anything upon a child. It is an authoritarian form of parenting that does more harm than good. Franci's meals are always beautifully prepared, and I am sure her children will greatly benefit from having a mother who is both accommodating to their likes/dislikes, and a damn good home cook. 

 

I am just curious if yourself have children - actually I think you will educate your child's palate less if you always give them the opportunity to eat something else than what the parents are eating. Nobody is forcing them to eat something and it is not the problem to make in theory a second dish but by going that route you exclude them from being part of the family table. You should be thoughtful how you educate the child's palate by teaching and explaining them about new ingredients and it often helps when you introduce them multiple times together with ingredients they are already familiar but they should always eat what the parents are eating.

[c oliver]

every 2 y.o. is 50 % brat.  Ive seen at least 100,000 of these.  every parent deals w this issue in there own way.

 

there are Chinese Brats, Indian Brats, Anglo Brats etc.

 

that Franci has the energy to take into account her child's 'tastes' is a Gift they will remember for the rest of their long lives

 

and thus pass it on to their own Brats.

 

it is foolish to think otherwise.

 

After WWII, in the book " Apprentice "

 

http://www.amazon.com/Apprentice-My-Life-Kitchen/dp/0618444114/ref=sr_1_3/191-2484868-4947813?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1415382832&sr=1-3&keywords=pepin+jacque

 

JPepin  ( The Food God Himself ! ) recounts life as a small child when food was scare after the war.  One meal was some sort of veg.  He

 

politely pointed out to his mother

 

that this veg. he didnt like.  Mom " but Jacque , ( some sort of FR endearment next ) Its all we have ."

 

worth a read.  he doesnt eat that veg at all now I think I recall, nor does he frequent McDonalds, unless he goes EnDrag.

When our daughters were about 7 and 9 we got snowed in for an extra night at the family cabin.  (After that we always kept provisions for that sort of thing.)  We had a little ham that I mixed with some noodles and baked an apple.  One of them asked "What's that?"  I replied "That's dinner and if you don't eat it, it's going to be a very long time before we have what we will call "breakfast"  They ate it!

[rotuts]

maybe there should be a new thread :

 

" Food stories : Conflicts Sur la Table from when you were very very young :  1 ) the story  2 ) its current effects 3 ) etc

 

the emphasis would be on" What I Learned While Still Very Small "

[mm84321]

I am just curious if yourself have children - actually I think you will educate your child's palate less if you always give them the opportunity to eat something else than what the parents are eating. Nobody is forcing them to eat something and it is not the problem to make in theory a second dish but by going that route you exclude them from being part of the family table. You should be thoughtful how you educate the child's palate by teaching and explaining them about new ingredients and it often helps when you introduce them multiple times together with ingredients they are already familiar but they should always eat what the parents are eating.

 

No. I have no children. I'm 23 and I suppose fairly opinionated. I do not think it is a one size fits all approach, obviously. However, I would trust the judgement of someone like Franci to feed her children foods they are comfortable eating. No one knows their children better than a mother.  And if any children could develop tastes for some of the more unusual foods and flavors, it will be those who are constantly surrounded by them, as is the case in this circumstance. 

[rotuts]

""  Franci to feed her children foods they are comfortable eating. No one knows their children better than a mother "

 

of note is the setting the children eat in, which I bet is much more important than what's sur la plate.

 

and Im sure they get a little bit of that, and a little bit of this all the time.

 

I wonder if they get a little bit of that Red Wine in water also.  I did.  I didnt care that much for it, nor the Beer I always had in my own

 

"micro" glass beer 'stein'   i still have that glass BTW.  no significant hard liquor in our house,  then nor now.