Establishing and Working with Homegrown Sourdough Starter

[chileheadmike]

I started some last Sunday. Yesterday, my wife decided to do some cleaning and "flushed that nasty stuff down the sink" while I was at work.

 

Sigh. Oh well. 

[Smithy]

8 hours ago, Soupcon said:

Update and need help I think.

Here is a picture of my ww sourdough starter which is the one I last talked about and has been in production for not quite 2 weeks (I think). Anyway it looks great as the photo shows but sinks like a stone in the float test. Me no understand. I have had to switch ww flours in the last 2 days and will return to the original brand when it is restocked (never dreamed they would run out of the original... who knew). The starter is now very very concentrated and almost dough like but still in a 1:1:1 ratio of starter/flour/water. So what is the problem... hydration? Too much bran?

 

It looks too thick and stiff to me.  I have a very dim recollection of a dough I had that looked like this - or maybe it was a sourdough starter - that was quite unworkable for me.  Keep in mind that so far I'm a one-trick pony with sourdough starter and not much of a troubleshooter.  If nobody who actually knows what they're doing speaks up soon, I'd suggest splitting this starter and trying to thin out half with water.  Maybe a 1:2:1 starter:water:flour ratio? 

 

Then again, it might be fine.  Way up in this topic, bethesdabakers said that once the starter is bubbling away one should try baking with it.  Have you tried working with it?

[Soupcon]

I finally took a look at what "Robin Hood" might have doctored the flour with and found L-Cysteine HCL. Some kind of amino acid. This is the only additive that might have had this effect as it is supposed to promote gluten formation. Well I had gluten alright. The starter was almost solid. It got pitched. I have started again after finding the ww flour that I had started with originally. As for the AP sourdough starter... it had seem to go into hold for a while and I could not seem to get it to ferment any faster than over a 24 hour period and then it barely doubled. So I changed the ratios from 1:1:1 to 1:2:2 and waited and yes I refreshed daily. Finally this morning it had not only doubled in bulk it had trippled and had just started to receed so I refreshed  early this morning and the action has already started. Not holding my breath yet. This starter has passed the float test for the past week but because it took sooooo long to ferment I have not yet made bread with it.

 

[Anna N]

15 minutes ago, Soupcon said:

I finally took a look at what "Robin Hood" might have doctored the flour with and found L-Cysteine HCL. Some kind of amino acid. This is the only additive that might have had this effect as it is supposed to promote gluten formation. Well I had gluten alright. The starter was almost solid. It got pitched. I have started again after finding the ww flour that I had started with originally. As for the AP sourdough starter... it had seem to go into hold for a while and I could not seem to get it to ferment any faster than over a 24 hour period and then it barely doubled. So I changed the ratios from 1:1:1 to 1:2:2 and waited and yes I refreshed daily. Finally this morning it had not only doubled in bulk it had trippled and had just started to receed so I refreshed  early this morning and the action has already started. Not holding my breath yet. This starter has passed the float test for the past week but because it took sooooo long to ferment I have not yet made bread with it.

 

This.   Just wanted to make you aware of the recall of Robin Hood all purpose flour.  

[Soupcon]

1 minute ago, Anna N said:

This.   Just wanted to make you aware of the recall of Robin Hood all purpose flour.  

Thanks Anna. I was not aware of this but I had already pitched the flour anyway. The ww flour I had been using at the beginning to make the starter is from Five Roses. When I have figured out how to make starters and bake with them I am going to switch over to ww Red Fife organic flour. But that may not beeeee for quite a while yet.

[Kerry Beal]

58 minutes ago, Anna N said:

This.   Just wanted to make you aware of the recall of Robin Hood all purpose flour.  

Of course when I found cheap flour a couple of weeks ago - Robin Hood is the one I settled on! Damn.

[Isabelle Prescott]

What is the "sink" test:  I've been making starters and baking sourdough bread for years.  Please enlighten me. Thanks.

[rustwood]

22 minutes ago, Isabelle Prescott said:

What is the "sink" test

 

Perhaps this is a reference to the float test?  There is a discussion of it here.  Apparently it is not reliable in at least some situations.

[Isabelle Prescott]

Thanks.  I'm not that scientific about my bread baking.  I keep my starter in the refrigerator and feed it about once a week.  Originally made it from Nancy Silverton's recipe using flour, water and grapes.  It took about 2-3 weeks for it to get to the place where I could bake with it.  I've had it for maybe 8 years and it just keeps on going as long as it is fed.  I start my bread the night before I'm going to bake it.  Its a simple recipe using starter, flour, water and salt.  

 

I suggest Soupcon just dive in and try baking with the starter.  It takes longer, usually, than when using yeast for the bread to rise but totally worth it.

[Soupcon]

I forgot to post about my conversation with the baker/teacher at the bakery where I purchase my loved ww sourdough loaf. I asked the baker behind the counter about the levain they use for their breads in particular the ww bread I love so much and he went into the bakery and brought back with him the baker/instructor. The lavain they use in the bakery is from a 200 year old levain from France. They have divided it and mixed into it different flours depending on the type of bread they wish to bake... each kind of bread has a separate levain maintained just for it. The ww loaf levain is about 30% AP flour as they had difficulty with a totally ww levain. He did not elaborate as to what difficulty they had. I have been invited back to the bakery to speak more with the teacher and to see their main production area (quite small) and hopefully the levain they use. 

 

[chromedome]

7 hours ago, Kerry Beal said:

Of course when I found cheap flour a couple of weeks ago - Robin Hood is the one I settled on! Damn.

I believe the batches involved in the recall were sold only in the Western provinces. 

[rustwood]

17 hours ago, Soupcon said:

he went into the bakery and brought back with him the baker/instructor. The lavain they use in the bakery is from a 200 year old levain from France

 

I thought your story might end with them giving you some starter.  I imagine they consider it a trade secret, but you never know - perhaps on your next visit.

 

I've read that a starter takes on the characteristics of the local biome so although their levain may have originated 200 years ago in France, by now it may be a completely different animal - so to speak.   Perhaps in time we will learn more about the truth about such claims - an evolutionary biologist has been collecting starters and a stories surrounding them from all over the world.  According to their most recent post, Project Sourdough already has already received 300 starters.

 

[cakewalk]

5 minutes ago, rustwood said:

 

I thought your story might end with them giving you some starter.  I imagine they consider it a trade secret, but you never know - perhaps on your next visit.

 

I've read that a starter takes on the characteristics of the local biome so although their levain may have originated 200 years ago in France, by now it may be a completely different animal - so to speak.   Perhaps in time we will learn more about the truth about such claims - an evolutionary biologist has been collecting starters and a stories surrounding them from all over the world.  According to their most recent post, Project Sourdough already has already received 300 starters.

 

And from this he makes a living?

 

What can I say, I'm a bit bewildered by it all. I think an older starter is a nice pat on the back for the baker, because he/she was able to maintain the starter for a long period, which can sometimes take some doing. It's a nice challenge. But I also don't think, as you mentioned above, that an older starter retains many, if any, of the characteristics it originated with. There's constant replacement of the old starter with "new stuff." I'm afraid that 200 year old French starter is currently as American as apple pie. 

[rustwood]

1 minute ago, cakewalk said:

And from this he makes a living?

 

That's the nature of basic science - one never knows how or when the results of basic science might be beneficial - either directly or as part of a long, anonymous chain of discovery.  The applied/beneficial science that the public generally sees as important and worthwhile would not be possible without the foundations that are being laid by people doing basic science.  The questionable-sounding work that tends to generate a lot of press and public interest is often done by professors at universities who teach a full set of courses and do research on the side with their students - often on their own time and using their personal funds to buy supplies.  Although such research can sometimes sound funny or frivolous, it contributes to the literature and it engages future generations of scientists.

 

Unfortunately too many people have no idea how research works and thus they are enraged by stories of researchers wasting tax dollars on "frivolous" research - even though tax dollars may not be involved at all.  There may have been a time when it was easy to get funding for any given interest, but those days are long gone.  Competition for public grant dollars is fierce.  Talented researchers with well established track records are abandoning their careers because they want to have some degree of confidence that they will be able to provide for their families.

 

 

[cakewalk]

I think there's a bit of a gap between the research you're talking about in your post above, and the starter thing. 

[Soupcon]

To set the cat among the pidgeons.... I understand that the yeasts found in the sourdough levain can be and are found anywhere in the world. The difference in the bread itself is in the flour and the baker. French flour is not the same as Canadian flour which are both not the same as US flour. Anyone in the world can bake sourdough bread. The sourdough yeasts found in the San Fransisco area can be found in Toronto, London England, Bejing, and Canbera. I think maintaining the levain itself for that long is to be admired.

 

[cakewalk]

9 minutes ago, Soupcon said:

The difference in the bread itself is in the flour and the baker. 

 

Yes. Maybe the water, too. (And on a separate note, the oven.) But I'd put most of my money on the baker. Even if I used all the same ingredients as your baker, I have no delusions that my bread would be like his. 

[chromedome]

On 29/03/2017 at 6:11 PM, chromedome said:

I believe the batches involved in the recall were sold only in the Western provinces. 

...aaaaannnnnd, the recall has now been extended nationally. Per the CFIA, check your pantry for lot codes containing BB/MA 2018 AL 17 and 6 291 548. 

[pastryani]

Not sure if this is the right place to pose this question but I got some starter from a very generous baker and I'm quite anxious to use it.  She said she feeds hers everyday which I know I won't be doing (once a week would be more like it for me).  My question is - since it's kept in the fridge, what is your process for making bread?  That is, do you take the starter out of the fridge and use it right away in your recipe (as-is without feeding), or do you take it out and feed it the night before and then use a little bit of the starter in your recipe the next morning, or something else? (Can you tell it's been a while since I baked bread?!) 

[cakewalk]

I'd feed it and let it come to room temp before using it in a recipe. (About 2-3 hours or so.) Often the recipe will specify the timing. But I wouldn't use cold starter. 

[pastryani]

Thanks @cakewalk.  I've got a Tartine olive loaf in the fridge for an overnight fermentation, but I'm concerned because the dough feels dense and heavy. It was very wet while pre-shaping so I kept adding flour to cut down on the stickiness.  It doesn't seem like it's developed a lot of gassy bubbles and I'm worried that tomorrow it'll bake up like a salty rock.  Any suggestions for getting it airy before baking?  I'll keep it out for 3-4 hours to come to room temp.

 

Edit. I should add that I almost doubled the amount of levain called for (used 190g instead of 100g), but I took out 45g each of water and flour from the final formula to compensate.  Could this have made the boule heavy?

Edited April 26, 2017 by pastryani (log)

[cakewalk]

@pastryani, I think someone more knowledgeable about the science might better answer you. Tartine is generally very precise in their formulas and instructions. (Olive loaves can often be dense and heavy, intentionally so.) If you added a lot more flour because of the stickiness, it may well make a difference. As you mentioned, let it come to room temp; if the starter is active it will rise. It might need another couple of hours after it reaches room temp (but be careful not to overproof). Someone else might be able to weigh in with better advice. But I would also say this: if it doesn't look like it's doing what it should, I would bake it anyway. See how it comes out. Even if it's inedible, it's a learning experience under your belt. (I have many, many such experiences, and I know there will be many more to come.)

[lindag]

On ‎3‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 0:47 PM, Soupcon said:

 

The one on the counter smelled of nail polish remover. I can't for the life of me figure out what would cause so it must be some strange bacteria from somewhere.... either in the flour or picked up in the house. I have just pitched it as I can's seem to get the smell to go away even after a few refreshments.

The one in the fridge is still in hibernation. I am not sure what to do with that one. Any suggestions?

Could the odor have come from the container?

[I have a herring problem]

On 08/04/2017 at 1:50 AM, pastryani said:

Not sure if this is the right place to pose this question but I got some starter from a very generous baker and I'm quite anxious to use it.  She said she feeds hers everyday which I know I won't be doing (once a week would be more like it for me).  My question is - since it's kept in the fridge, what is your process for making bread?  That is, do you take the starter out of the fridge and use it right away in your recipe (as-is without feeding), or do you take it out and feed it the night before and then use a little bit of the starter in your recipe the next morning, or something else? (Can you tell it's been a while since I baked bread?!) 

 

I keep my sourdough out of the fridge and feed every day, but when I have kept the sourdough in the fridge, I take it out a few days before I want to bake with it and feed 3-4 times minimum before I use it for baking.

I personally think the smell (and taste) of the sourdough is more pleasant when it is very active and has been fed daily, compared to a sourdough that has been in the fridge for a week and only been fed once before baking.

I use the sourdough to bake with when it has risen to the maximum level, or just when it starts to fall. This is also when a spoonful of the sourdough will float in a glass of water.

 

This also seems to be the recommendation of Chad Robertson of Tartine. He writes to keep the sourdough at warm room temperature for at least 2 days and to do 3 to 4 feedings to refresh and reduce the acid load that builds up while the sourdough is stored in the fridge.
 

Regarding the olive bread, Tartine bread doughs always seem very wet to me. This is something I've had to get used to as the bread doughs I grew up making were much more dry and easier to work with. I also have always been used to using flour to avoid the dough sticking to my hands, whereas the Tartine book recommends using wet hands.

The Tartine (olive) bread recipe mentions that the bread only increases 20-30% in size during fermentation.

The folding technique also helps to make the dough less sticky - Richard Bertinet has a video on youtube and on a DVD that comes with his book "Dough" that shows this type of technique quite well.

A wet dough will typically develop more air bubbles than a dry dough, so if you have added a lot more flour than the recipe stated, then that is likely to be the reason why your bread seems more dense. It will still rise, but it will be more dense and have smaller, more even air bubbles than the usual Tartine bread that has larger and more unevenly sized air bubbles. It will still taste perfectly fine, but the texture will be different.

I don't think there is much to do about a too dense dough so late in the process - I cannot imagine that adding more water at this stage will be successful. Just let it rise as per the recipe, and then bake as per the recipe.

Good luck

[JoNorvelleWalker]

16 hours ago, lindag said:

Could the odor have come from the container?

 

My guess, the odor is from fermentation and depends on what brand of nail polish remover you use.  Have you read Raymond Calvel The Taste of Bread?