Wagyu vs. Kobe

[LaffyCaffi]

Hi all - new to the forums.   Thought I'd start with a post asking about the difference between Wagyu and Kobe beef.  I always thought that Wagyu was the better cut.  But apparently Kobe IS Wagyu, and it's the superior of all Wagyu beef.  http://argylldenver.com/kobe-or-wagyu-explained-right-now/  Is this accurate?

Edited July 15, 2014 by LaffyCaffi (log)

[weedy]

Wagyu is the Japanese 'style'

 

Kobe is a specific place/region where the best Wagyu comes from

[Blether]

"Wagyu" 和牛, literally "Japan beef" is what Japan calls its own beef. In English, "Wagyu" has also come into use as the name for the breed of cattle that's raised in Japan for this beef. So you can now get Wagyu from Australia, for example, where some enterprising farmers raise this breed in the Japanese style.

It'd need a better legal expert than me to tell you how reliable "Kobe beef" is as a designation - whether you can trust that something in a store labelled "Kobe beef" is actually beef produced in the Kobe area.. Kobe is an old port city in Western Japan, which is famous for producing this kind of beef, finely marbled with fat for genetic and 'lifestyle' (ha ha) reasons. In the Kobe area, there are further designations for smaller areas such as "Matsuzaka beef". Some people will tell you that Matsuzaka beef is "the best".

To my personal taste, Kobe beef is a game that's not worth the candle. I was raised on grass-fed beef in the western style, and I look for that beefy flavour and juiciness. I find Kobe beef to be too unctuous and to be lacking in flavour - like eating melted butter. Melted butter's great, but in small quantities and not at USD100/lb. I much prefer Yamagata beef, from Yamagata in the north of the country.

Meat-eating is only fairly new in Japan as a widespread phenomenon (not even 200 years). Traditionally the fatty parts of fish were highest prized for their nutritional value and flavour. Some of that culture has carried over into meat-eating, with the sad result that you can be served some very off-putting meat dishes here, with lumps off un-rendered and un-roasted fat in them. It's also worth noting that, again culturally, the meat trade has traditionally been an outcast occupation. Butchers and tanners belonged to an Edo-era underclass, and today there remains prejudice against families engaged in the meat trade.

Edited July 16, 2014 by Smithy
Corrected typo at poster's request (log)

[liuzhou]

You might be interested in this discussion. Also, read the 2014 update here.

[gfweb]

I agree with you, Blether. The joys of wagyu/kobe are lost on me.  Just feels greasy in the mouth and not very beefy tasting. I wouldn't eat it if it were cheap.

[rotuts]

I also agree.

 

to me, only having it ground, its all about your interest in the fat.  not much 'beef'

 

then again, some might like that fatty taste.

[dcarch]

I agree with you, Blether. The joys of wagyu/kobe are lost on me.  Just feels greasy in the mouth and not very beefy tasting. I wouldn't eat it if it were cheap.

 

Me too.

 

Although I think it can be made into very interesting kind of bacon, with all the fat. 

 

$300 a lb beef bacon? :-)

 

dcarch

[paulraphael]

When you see kobe beef in the U.S., you are probably being lied to. In Japan, Kobe is a legal designation. Beef doesn't just have to come from the region, but has to come from specific cattle that have been raised under strict rules governing everything from their feed to their living conditions and daily handling. No U.S. governing body recognizes this designation, so here, Kobe can be attached to anything. Most commonly it designates beef from wagyu cows, which are pretty good cows, but only responsible for a small portion of the true kobe beef quality.

 

Up until 2012, no Japanese beef of any kind was imported to the U.S.. So everything labelled kobe was a lie. In the last two years, tiny quantities have been imported, under new regulations. But the name is still unregulated here, so how can you know what's real Kobe and what isn't? You'd better check the fine print.

 

When I see restaurants offering $8 kobe burgers, I walk away, because it just seems like an insult to everyone's intelligence. It makes me wonder what else they're lying about.

[rotuts]

"""   what else they're lying about  """

 

The Fish.

[Blether]

And it wouldn't be like the Japanese (link #1: 2002) to mis-represent (link #2: 2008) food products (link #3: 2013) to the consumer...

 

From link #1: "Tokyu Store Chain said 26 packs of meat falsely labelled as Matsuzaka beef were sold at a shop operated within one of its supermarkets..."

From link #2: "Cheap American pork used in school lunches was reportedly mislabelled as domestically produced by staff at Seiniku Ishikawaya, a meat wholesalers, in a bid to obtain a higher price"

From link #3: "A traditional ryokan-style hotel in the ancient capital of Nara said it used Australian beef but labelled it as high-end Japanese “wagyu” beef, among other things"

 

(these three quotes just skim the surface, even within these three articles).

 

... much.

Edited July 16, 2014 by Blether (log)

[paulraphael]

Blether, that may be so, but those are examples of corruption. The mislabeling of Kobe here is is legal, and so it's completely rampant and it's hard to know what to do about it.

[Blether]

paulraphael, yes, I understood the situation in the US, thanks.  I thought I'd point out that it's not all plain-sailing in Japan, either.  It's corruption, which exists everywhere, but the food-industry corruption is particularly widespread in a way that I don't recognise from back in the UK.

 

"We bought insecticide-tainted rice licensed only for industrial use, but sold it on to food manufacturers as fit for human consumption".  Huh?!

[SobaAddict70]

Up until 2012, no Japanese beef of any kind was imported to the U.S..

I want to point out that the statement above contradicts this source which is the federal government. (This entry of the Federal Register dates from 2005.)

 

The Government of Japan has requested that APHIS consider allowing

the resumption of trade in beef from Japan to the United States. Prior

to the 2001 ban on the importation of ruminants and ruminant products

from Japan, Japan primarily exported to the United States boneless cuts

of beef from cattle born, raised and slaughtered in Japan. Therefore,

in response to Japan's request, we considered allowing the importation

of whole cuts of boneless beef derived from cattle that were born,

raised, and slaughtered in Japan and analyzed the animal health risks

associated with that product.\1\ For a consideration of the risks to

human health, we consulted with the Food Safety and Inspection Service (FSIS)

of USDA, which is the public health agency that is responsible for

ensuring the food safety of this product. The risk analysis is

available on EDOCKET and in the APHIS reading room. (Information on

accessing EDOCKET as well as the location and hours of the APHIS

reading room may be found at the beginning of this document under

ADDRESSES.) You may also request paper copies of the analysis by

calling or writing the person listed under FOR FURTHER INFORMATION

CONTACT. Please refer to Docket No. 05-004-1 when requesting copies of

the risk analysis.

\1\ In this proposal, we use the term ``whole cuts of boneless

beef'' to refer to meat derived from the skeletal muscle of a bovine

carcass, excluding all parts of the animal's head and diaphragm.

Meat that has been ground, flaked, shaved, or otherwise processed,

comminuted, or mechanically separated would not be whole cuts of

boneless beef.

Perhaps you meant after the ban was instituted, in response to incidences of BSE (a/k/a mad cow disease).

Furthermore these statements by the government

 

Based on the unit price of beef imported into the United States

from Japan prior to the 2001 ban on the importation of ruminants and

most ruminant products from Japan, it is assumed that all of the

boneless beef imported from Japan prior to the ban was Wagyu beef. (The

term ``Wagyu,'' which literally translates to Japanese cattle, refers

to purebred Japanese Black or Japanese Brown breeds of cattle. Wagyu

beef is a high-priced specialty meat widely acclaimed for its flavor

and tenderness. ``Kobe beef'' refers to Wagyu beef that is produced in

the Kobe area of Japan.) Japan also produces Holstein breed dairy

cattle, but it is unlikely that Japan would try to compete in the U.S.

import market for lower-grade beef from culled dairy cattle.

Accordingly, we expect only Wagyu beef to be imported under the

proposed rule.

As discussed above, the proposed rule has the potential to primarily affect farmers and ranchers in the United States who produce Kobe-style beef.

The size distribution of Kobe-style beef producers in the United States is also unknown, but it is reasonable to assume that most are small, under the U.S. Small Business Administration's (SBA) standards.

suggest that it recognizes and differentiates the designation "Kobe beef" from "Kobe-style beef".

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2005-08-18/html/05-16422.htm

Edited July 17, 2014 by SobaAddict70 (log)

[btbyrd]

I don't understand the point of ground Kobe/Wagyu when you can just use regular beef and grind in more fat. The real advantages are in whole muscle cuts and steaks. I've had Wagyu once - A6 from Australia - and it was impossibly decadent. Of course, it was layered with slices of smoked foie gras so that contributed even more richness.

[David Ross]

In all honesty, I personally prefer a properly raised, fed, choice grade, aged, thick-cut pure-bred Hereford steak, (Angus #2), rather than over-priced Kobe or Wagyu.  Oh, and cooked properly.  I will say that Snake River Farms, (Boise), "Ameican-Style" Kobe burgers are quite good.  We can buy them locally in markets in the Pacific Northwest.

[weedy]

"over priced" is, obviously, a judgment call.

 

someone might say "I'd much prefer a great locally foraged wild mushroom to an 'overpriced' truffle"

 

that person would be entitled to such an opinion; but I would still think him to be a bit (well, more than a bit) missing the point

 

I've had some unbelievable Kobe beef in Japan.

unlike, and BETTER than, anything I've had in the US or UK. (Wagyu in Australia came close.)

 

so for me, it was expensive but not 'overpriced'.

[dcarch]

"Expensive" is because of the natural dynamics of supply and demand (truffles, for instance) in a free economy.

 

"Over priced" is a product artificially controlled (like diamonds) and promoted to allow for unreasonable profit margin to be imposed on consumers.

 

Kobe beef is "Over priced", IMHO.

 

dcarch

Edited July 18, 2014 by dcarch (log)

[ChrisZ]

Kobe beef is "Over priced", IMHO.

I had heard that Kobe beef was very expensive, and when I travelled to Japan I was interested to see exactly how much it was. I saw a few butchers around and did the conversions and figured out that the price was roughly double what I paid for supermarket beef in Australia. While the price was expensive compared to a supermarket, it was roughly comparable to top-end 'gourmet' butchers. Then after a few days I realised that the prices listed in Japan were for 100g, not per kilogram! So I was off by a factor of 10… yes the stuff is expensive!

Many years ago the weekly food section of our local paper surveyed a bunch of local chefs and asked them how they would cook Kobe beef. The journalist wanted to know if Kobe beef needed to be cooked differently to regular beef, and how chefs would treat such an expensive product. Surprisingly, the results were very mixed and there was a lot of disagreement. Some chefs thought the beef should be rare, others thought the extra fat required longer cooking.

The other thing I recall from Japan is that they just eat beef differently. Whenever we had beef, it was always cut into thin strips, cooked quickly on a grill and served to us almost one strip at a time. Maybe it was just the places we were at, but I got the impression that sitting down to a huge steak dinner wasn't something they did a lot of over there...

[David Ross]

For me it's always an issue, (obviously a personal choice), of taste first and then secondly, am I willing to spend the money to buy that product.  I've eaten just about every grade of Kobe/Wagyu during my regular travels to Las Vegas, a city that offers diners all grades and price levels.  Honestly, I just don't care for the taste or texture whether it was prepared and served as an American-style slab of steak or thinly sliced and served in Shabu-Shabu.  I like the analogy with wild mushrooms.  I live in the land of wild morels harvested by hand out of the forest.  This past Spring they were selling for upwards of $35 per pound in the local markets.  I gladly pay for this once a year delicacy, but again, based on flavor first. 

[paulraphael]

I want to point out that the statement above contradicts this source which is the federal government. (This entry of the Federal Register dates from 2005.)

......

... it recognizes and differentiates the designation "Kobe beef" from "Kobe-style beef".

 

This is interesting ... it says that before 2001 there was a small quantity of Kobe beef imported into the U.S., just as there is after 2012. 

 

Which still means that in the ensuing 11 years, everyone selling Kobe beef here was lying, while before and after, it was only most people.

 

The passage distinguishing Kobe from Kobe-style does not sound like a U.S. legal designation. It just looks like a clarification of language for the purpose of this document.

[paulraphael]

Many years ago the weekly food section of our local paper surveyed a bunch of local chefs and asked them how they would cook Kobe beef. The journalist wanted to know if Kobe beef needed to be cooked differently to regular beef, and how chefs would treat such an expensive product. Surprisingly, the results were very mixed and there was a lot of disagreement. Some chefs thought the beef should be rare, others thought the extra fat required longer cooking.

 

 

What I've read from Japanese chefs says unequivocally that the tender cuts are cooked beyond rare. There is an insane amount of marbling, and if the fat doesn't melt, it's unpleasant. It's possible that the way the beef is raised, the fat is higher in unsaturated fats than typical beef, and so would melt at a lower temperature. I'd still assume they cook it somewhere north of 54°C / 129F. 

 

I haven't been to Japan, so have only had fake Kobe.

[Shalmanese]

I'm in Japan right now on vacation. We've not had Kobe specifically but have had quite a bit of Japanese A5 wagyu. Here are the facts as I understand them:

 

* Technically, Wagyu refers to all Japanese Beef and Tashima-Wagyu refers to the type of beef Americans know as Wagyu beef (and what I'll be calling it).

* Although Kobe wagyu is the only type known in America, there's many different beef regions in Japan that produce wagyu.

* The availability of wagyu in Japan is insane. High end groceries can have up to 1/3rd of their beef case devoted to wagyu and even fairly ho-hum grocery stores & butchers will generally have some wagyu for sale.

* The marbling on Japanese wagyu is so much incredibly higher than the stuff I've eaten in America or Australia and the marbling is incredibly even and consistent.

* Prices for Japanese wagyu seem to start around $40USD/lb and go up from there. $60 - $80USD/lb would be typical mid range but some of it fetches over $300USD/lb.

* Meat in general is expensive in Japan and non-Wagyu beef is around $20-30USD/lb so wagyu is not a huge step up in price.

* Wagyu, if properly raised, should have fat with a very low melting temperature so it can absolutely be served rare. Wagyu sashimi is very popular and the fat melts in your mouth, even when raw.

* A5 Wagyu is so rich, a traditional American style steak style preparation would be inappropriate. Instead, it's typically served raw, quickly simmered shabu shabu style or grilled a piece at a time yakiniku or teppanyaki style.

[Blether]

Steady prices here in Tokyo, in the right places but retail and in retail quantities, are:

 

Ground USD4.50/lb

Good chuck roll USD8/lb

Rib-eye was cheap for a while after the GFC when the yen stayed strong (USD12/lb), but is now back to like USD19.  Tenderloin's not much more.

Clod, round, silverside are all around or under USD5/lb.

 

- all for imported beef, western-style.

[SobaAddict70]

This is interesting ... it says that before 2001 there was a small quantity of Kobe beef imported into the U.S., just as there is after 2012. 

 

Which still means that in the ensuing 11 years, everyone selling Kobe beef here was lying, while before and after, it was only most people.

 

I don't know the truth of that matter; I can only report what I found and only because I am a policy wonk and legal geek.

 

The entry in the Federal Register relates to an amendment of the ban on imported Japanese beef.

 

We know that the amendment went through because in July 2008, the USDA released guidance on labeling; I refer to this in the "scam" thread started by liuzhou, but for convenience I'll link it here since you've probably not seen it yet:  http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/getfile?dDocName=STELPRDC5070896

Edited July 18, 2014 by SobaAddict70 (log)

[paulraphael]

That's interesting, too, thanks for posting. It contradicts what I posted above about there being no legally recognized designation for Kobe in the U.S.. But! It only covers beef labelled "Certifed Kobe Beef^®" ... which I've never encountered. You can still throw around the world "Kobe" in other phrases with impunity, as it seems everyone does. 

 

Reminds me quite a bit of balsamic vinegar, which practically doesn't mean anything anymore. Anyone can call anything they want Balsamic. But there's an official designation for Aceto Balsamico Tradizionale ... which means it actually has to be the stuff that was once just called balsamic vinegar.