Wine & Spirits Bargains at the PLCB (Part 2)

[Dennis]

the whitehall lane cab was NOT the normal bottling. this was really not made clear and how they came up with a retail price for a wine that was not available to the normal market is pretty misleading. basing the price on the regular whl cab was misleading at best. the criticism for this selection was completely vaild.

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You're right. Here's the response that I got from WHL...

Dennis,

Thanks for the email.

The Chairman’s Cabernet and Merlot were specially blended by and for Chairman Jonathon Newman of Pennsylvania. These 2005 vintage wines are from a separate wine lot and not exactly representative of our branded Whitehall Lane black label wines: Napa Valley Merlot, Napa Valley Cabernet and Reserve Cabernet Sauvignon.

The Chairman’s Merlot and Cabernet are very young 2005 wines. They experienced an abbreviated barrel-aging regime of only about 10 months. This youthful wine is a delightful blend in its own right and stands alone as a wine well made by the cellar team and with the influence of The Chairman.

Thanks,

Tony

___________________________

Tony Leonardini

Retail Sales Manager

Whitehall Lane Winery

1563 St. Helena Hwy. S

St. Helena CA 94574

707.963.9454 ext.29

tony@whitehalllane.com

[wkl]

thanks dennis, that is an interesting email.

cleary not a $40 something bottle of wine.

[doviakw]

the whitehall lane cab was NOT the normal bottling. this was really not made clear and how they came up with a retail price for a wine that was not available to the normal market is pretty misleading. basing the price on the regular whl cab was misleading at best. the criticism for this selection was completely vaild.

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You're right. Here's the response that I got from WHL...

Dennis,

Thanks for the email.

The Chairman’s Cabernet and Merlot were specially blended by and for Chairman Jonathon Newman of Pennsylvania. These 2005 vintage wines are from a separate wine lot and not exactly representative of our branded Whitehall Lane black label wines: Napa Valley Merlot, Napa Valley Cabernet and Reserve Cabernet Sauvignon.

The Chairman’s Merlot and Cabernet are very young 2005 wines. They experienced an abbreviated barrel-aging regime of only about 10 months. This youthful wine is a delightful blend in its own right and stands alone as a wine well made by the cellar team and with the influence of The Chairman.

Thanks,

Tony

___________________________

Tony Leonardini

Retail Sales Manager

Whitehall Lane Winery

1563 St. Helena Hwy. S

St. Helena CA 94574

707.963.9454 ext.29

tony@whitehalllane.com

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That's pretty much the same response I got when I sent an e-mail inquiry to the Whitehall Lane Winery back in October.

[wkl]

Mr Newman is a poster here and has been lurking around recently. Maybe he can shed some light on this.

[guzzirider]

thanks dennis, that is an interesting email.

cleary not a $40 something bottle of wine.

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And based on some impromptu blind tasting at a party last week, I'm willing to say it may not be a $12 wine either (the merlot was consistently beat out by a readily available $9.99 selection)

__Jason

[shacke]

Mr Newman is a poster here and has been lurking around recently. Maybe he can shed some light on this.

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Don't hold your breath on that one. The Whitehall Lane stunt was not the Chairman's finest hour. In fact, it was downright trickery in my book - however innocent the sentiment may have been.

[Mano]

Newman has done some great things for the PCLB and I've heard he has a good palate for wine, but wine making/blending is out of his league. He indicated he selected the wines for the Chairman's Selections and rejected 75% of the wines offered. There were few klunkers, and overall they were good and occassionally outstanding wines, regardless of price. I wonder if he had input from a wine professional?

Conti and the new member (name please?) need to hire a professional buyer/taster for future Chairman's Selections.

[dagordon]

Mr Newman is a poster here and has been lurking around recently. Maybe he can shed some light on this.

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Don't hold your breath on that one. The Whitehall Lane stunt was not the Chairman's finest hour. In fact, it was downright trickery in my book - however innocent the sentiment may have been.

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Can someone explain to me why people so upset about this Whitehall Lane thing? I'm genuinely asking the question. I think I may not have the full story.

What I understand is that there is a Chairman's Selection that is a Whitehall Lane bottling specifically blended for PLCB sales.

People are upset that it was quoted with a retail price? But does anyone take these retail prices seriously?

The bottle says "Chairman's Selection" in extremely visible lettering on it, right there in the center of the label. Doesn't this give anyone pause? It would be trickery if this had the same label as other bottlings with which it is not identical. But it doesn't.

I really don't get it. People are upset that a retail price was quoted? But, as I said, it's simply not reasonable to take this to mean, "This wine is selling elsewhere for this much money." It's simply a number that the winery is giving the PLCB -- unless I'm missing something. Are the retail prices displayed in general the result of anything like a statistical sampling of prices around the area or country?

If, as I suspect, the retail price in general, is, as with most products, simply a meaningless number that the manufacturer is making up, then what's the harm in having one for a proprietary bottling? If the import of the number in general is, "Well, we might be able to find someone someplace who will pay this much for it," the same could be said for the Whitehall Chairman's Selection. Maybe they believe that if they decided at some point to sell this through other channels, they would quote a price of $40.

Everyone knows that wineries produce different bottlings every year. There was no secret made of the fact that this was a special bottling for the Chairman's Selection program. It, um, says it on the label.

Edited January 11, 2007 by dagordon (log)

[wkl]

this wine was only available in the pa market. to my knowledge, this blend had never before existed. to say it was a $45 bottle of wine selling for $15 is incredibly misleading. $45 is what whitehall lanes higher end stuff goes for. their higher end cab and merlot was no doubt still in barrel when this was released. some had the impression it was the same wine because of the quoted retail price. apparantly, previous poster dennis thought this and so did alot of others.

just because it says chairmans selection doesn't mean it is a different wine or blend. aren't many chairman's selections just wines bought at good prices, not wines the chairman "blended"? matter of fact, aren't just about all of them?

and yes, people take the retail prices seriously, that's the whole point of the chairmans selection program, the precieved savings the consumer is getting.

[wkl]

"Everyone knows that wineries produce different bottlings every year."

different vintages, yes. different wines? do you have specific examples of this? the wineries i buy from rarely have a different or new wine every year.

[dagordon]

this wine was only available in the pa market. to my knowledge, this blend had never before existed. to say it was a $45 bottle of wine selling for $15 is incredibly misleading.

What exactly does it mislead one into believing? That it's the same wine as their regular bottlings? Then why would it have a different label?

$45 is what whitehall lanes higher end stuff goes for. their higher end cab and merlot was no doubt still in barrel when this was released. some had the impression it was the same wine because of the quoted retail price. apparantly, previous poster dennis thought this and so did alot of others.

It's unfortunate if people had this impression, but it seems to me that the bottle label should have prevented that impression.

just because it says chairmans selection doesn't mean it is a different wine or blend. aren't many chairman's selections just wines bought at good prices, not wines the chairman "blended"? matter of fact, aren't just about all of them?

Of course! But my point is not that this wine is a Chairman's Selection. My point is that the original wine label says "Chairman's Selection" on it, and as far as I can tell the label bears absolutely no resemblance to labels on any of their other bottlings. I don't know how you could see that and not think something was up.

and yes, people take the retail prices seriously, that's the whole point of the chairmans selection program, the precieved savings the consumer is getting.

Well, I wouldn't take the retail prices seriously. If you do a bit of research I think you'll find that they often don't bear much resemblance to what price the wine is actually selling at elsewhere.

[dagordon]

"Everyone knows that wineries produce different bottlings every year."

different vintages, yes. different wines? do you have specific examples of this? the wineries i buy from rarely have a different or new wine every year.

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I think my original statement was misleading... What I meant was that it is common for a winery to release multiple wines in a given year. Given this practice, it seems like if one is confronted with a bottle that has a radically different label than another bottle by the same winery from the same year, it would be natural to conclude that there might be different stuff inside.

[Capaneus]

Mr Newman is a poster here and has been lurking around recently. Maybe he can shed some light on this.

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Don't hold your breath on that one. The Whitehall Lane stunt was not the Chairman's finest hour. In fact, it was downright trickery in my book - however innocent the sentiment may have been.

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Can someone explain to me why people so upset about this Whitehall Lane thing? I'm genuinely asking the question. I think I may not have the full story.

What I understand is that there is a Chairman's Selection that is a Whitehall Lane bottling specifically blended for PLCB sales.

People are upset that it was quoted with a retail price? But does anyone take these retail prices seriously?

....

Everyone knows that wineries produce different bottlings every year. There was no secret made of the fact that this was a special bottling for the Chairman's Selection program. It, um, says it on the label.

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Well, it bothered me, and I'm not normally a knee-jerk antagonist of the System. The fact that they went to well-known wineries, with proven track records, which people might have heard of, that they asked them to produce a blending that - bottom line - is inferior to their regular bottlings, and then mentioned prominently a "Suggested Retail Price" that is a) entirely fictional; and b) high enough to suggest the contents must be of comensurate quality... that's sailing awfully close to some foul winds.

For what it's worth, I feel virtually everything else I have seen of the Chairman Selection program has been something I was comfortable cheering on. This was a bad misstep. Not so much because you or I might be fooled, but because I feel it's very likely many were. And because it ultimately trades on the goodwill built not only by the producers, but by the Chairman Selection program itself. And finally, because it allows all the strident, unreasoning critics of the PLCB, who had for years scrabbled spastically for something, anything, to criticize, with even a faint glimmer of fairness, to at long last seize the high ground, and from it drop the contents of the chamber pots they carry where their brainpans should be upon the entire program, good and bad. Stupidity is finally the unforgivable sin, and these offerings were very very stupid. I don't think they were malicious, mind you, but try to prove that to the circling jackals.

[wkl]

you guys both realize there is an email from the lcb that states in no uncertain terms that this was in fact the same wine as whitehall lanes premiuim offering?

i am hardly a jackal, and i believe my brainpan is in the right place, so sorry the facts ruffle your feathers to the point of insulting others.

Edited January 11, 2007 by wkl (log)

[dagordon]

you guys both realize there is an email from the lcb that states in no uncertain terms that this was in fact the same wine as whitehall lanes premiuim offering?

Where? In any case, this is a different ground for complaint than what has been voiced here recently.

i am hardly a jackal, and i believe my brainpan is in the right place, so sorry the facts ruffle your feathers to the point of insulting others. 

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I'm not sure I quite understand what that means (whether it's the facts that are doing the ruffling and the insulting, or whether the facts are doing the ruffling, and I am doing the insulting, I suppose as a result). But as far as the ruffling, clearly it's not assumed that we knew that this email of which you speak exists, as you ask above whether we know of it. So you can't think that it's the fact that this email exists that "ruffled my feathers". (Though I'm not sure that my feathers are at all ruffled. I'm just trying to understand people's criticism.) I'm not sure what other "facts" you think might be ruffling me.

In any case, I didn't mean to insult anyone, and I hope that I didn't.

It just seems to me that "deceptive marketing" is not a charge to be taken lightly, when there are genuine cases of it that demand action. I just don't see it here.

If there's an email that states incorrect information about the product, that's another thing (and it seems to me that, armed with such an email, one could get a refund for whatever product one might claim one bought as a result) but that doesn't seem to be the main source of complaint here.

Edited January 11, 2007 by dagordon (log)

[wkl]

my bad, it was actually a letter.

voila.......

"Thank you for contacting the PLCB and for your interest in the

chairman's selection program. The "chairman's selection" cuvee from

Whitehall Lane is in fact the exact same wine as their estate bottling

which normally sells for $45. There are two reasons we have a special

labeling on the wine.

The first reason is that the chairman picked out specific barrels from

the 2005 vintage and chose them for his selection based on taste

profile. He also chose to give his cuvee less oak aging to highlight

the beautiful fruit of the 2005 vintage. The second reason is the

winery did not want to upset surrounding markets by selling their

cabernet to us for such a significant discount. To protect their

brand equity they requested we create a specific label for the wine we

were purchasing. We gladly agreed with the understanding that we

would still be marketing it as their estate bottling, which is not

misleading since the wine is in fact all from their estate.

I hope this clears up any confusion.

The combination of the very large 2005 vintage and the chairman

harnessing the purchasing power of over 600 stores has enabled us to

bring these incredible deals to the Commonwealth. Please take a look at

the entire list of upcoming selections to see the amazing selection we

have coming for the holidays."

if you can't see how this is misleading, we will just have to agree to disagree.

as to not taking the retail prices the plcb quotes seriously, in some business qouting a price that is not factual is illegal.

[cdh]

So their publicly available info was ambiguous, but in correspondence about the ambiguity, somebody at the LCB took it upon themself to lie to you in a letter. I can see why you'd be seething about it, but the public would not.

Is that what is going on here?

[guzzirider]

They should have just labeled it a 12.99 wine and been done with it. No "suggested price", no nothing... it's a custom-blended wine, you can only get it from one source, and it will only ever be one price. The "discount" thing is just marketing, and IMHO, disingenuous.

__Jason

[Capaneus]

you guys both realize there is an email from the lcb that states in no uncertain terms that this was in fact the same wine as whitehall lanes premiuim offering?

i am hardly a jackal, and i believe my brainpan is in the right place, so sorry the facts ruffle your feathers to the point of insulting others. 

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I have no particular information as to your species. To the (very limited) extent that I had any specific individuals in mind, they are actually participants in an entirely different forum, where vitriol is spewed with much greater abandon.

Not sure why you felt personally insulted, but sorry nonetheless to have touched a nerve.

As to the letter, I had no knowledge of its contents until you just quoted them, and it stands in direct contradiction of everything I've seen, from the winery, from the PLCB, from individuals here... If you have issue with it, I would advise you to pursue your correspondent's malfeasance in the appropriate venue, but I've seen no evidence to make me think it is anything other than someone's blunder. Personally, I find enough to bother me with the official version of events.

[dagordon]

Yikes. Anyone know the alcohol content of the Whitehall Chairman's Selection cab? Tried it last night at De Lorenzo's (which, in my mind, continues to produce some of the most extraordaordinary creations that mankind has ever ever been responsible for), didn't much care for it... Thought the alcohol was completely overwhelming.

[Jeff L]

Yikes. Anyone know the alcohol content of the Whitehall Chairman's Selection cab? Tried it last night at De Lorenzo's (which, in my mind, continues to produce some of the most extraordaordinary creations that mankind has ever ever been responsible for), didn't much care for it... Thought the alcohol was completely overwhelming.

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Off topic but which Delorenzo's? I'm headed to Hudson street for lunch in an hour. As a long standing customer for about 40 years, I must agree with your assesment of what comes out of those ovens

[dagordon]

Yikes. Anyone know the alcohol content of the Whitehall Chairman's Selection cab? Tried it last night at De Lorenzo's (which, in my mind, continues to produce some of the most extraordaordinary creations that mankind has ever ever been responsible for), didn't much care for it... Thought the alcohol was completely overwhelming.

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Off topic but which Delorenzo's? I'm headed to Hudson street for lunch in an hour. As a long standing customer for about 40 years, I must agree with your assesment of what comes out of those ovens

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Talk about insulting... if I were in a worse mood, I would have taken you to have just challenged me to a duel. Hudson St, of course. Who do you think I am?

[wkl]

isn't the alcohol content on the label?

[Jeff L]

Talk about insulting... if I were in a worse mood, I would have taken you to have just challenged me to a duel.   Hudson St, of course. Who do you think I am?

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It's amazing how many folks prefer Hamilton Ave. No comparison in my view

[dagordon]

isn't the alcohol content on the label?

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don't have the bottle anymore, and that was my only one... anyone have one on hand?

It's amazing how many folks prefer Hamilton Ave. No comparison in my view

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Agreed.