Jump to content
  • Welcome to the eG Forums, a service of the eGullet Society for Culinary Arts & Letters. The Society is a 501(c)3 not-for-profit organization dedicated to the advancement of the culinary arts. These advertising-free forums are provided free of charge through donations from Society members. Anyone may read the forums, but to post you must create a free account.


nextguy
 Share

Recommended Posts

I've seen Melissa's brand, here, at Wegman's in the past.

If it's available here in "Hooterville' it's definitely gone mainstream!

Edited by DiggingDogFarm (log)
  • Like 4

~Martin :)

I just don't want to look back and think "I could have eaten that."

Unsupervised, rebellious, radical agrarian experimenter, minimalist penny-pincher, and adventurous cook. Crotchety, cantankerous, terse curmudgeon, non-conformist, and contrarian who questions everything!

The best thing about a vegetable garden is all the meat you can hunt and trap out of it!

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Kerry Beal said:

I'm currently a few days short of finishing my first black garlic experiment. This is in aid of coming up with a novel product for the Toronto Garlic Festival this fall.

 

I'm working with this sous vide method suggested on the ChefSteps Community forum.

 

I started with peeled garlic cloves, sealed and cooked at 75C for 48 hours. Then removed from the bag and placed in dehydrator at 60C for another 48 hours. It was supposed to be 24 hours - but...

 

Sealed again and back in sous vide at 75C where it has been bathing for a week so far.

 

After the first bath and drying it was a dark caramelized brown - now back in the bath it's getting quite inky black.

 

Doesn't smell quite as distinctive now - but still glad it's in the garage.

 

I'm anxious to see how it turns out for you — if it's good, I want to give it a try.

~Martin :)

I just don't want to look back and think "I could have eaten that."

Unsupervised, rebellious, radical agrarian experimenter, minimalist penny-pincher, and adventurous cook. Crotchety, cantankerous, terse curmudgeon, non-conformist, and contrarian who questions everything!

The best thing about a vegetable garden is all the meat you can hunt and trap out of it!

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the link, Kerry. After you let on earlier in that other thread that ChefSteps was where you got whatever you were following, I searched there but was unable to unearth that post. They have really changed and hidden so much on their site since the last time I spent time there. That is a very different technique than I have found elsewhere too. I would really love to try making some but will wait to hear how yours turns out.

 

Also found (in the process of searching for 'recipes' to make black garlic earlier) this article: Starchefs.com talks about black garlic  Interesting that the person who wrote it says black garlic is not 'fermented' at all - that the process merely caramelizes sugars but doesn't 'ferment'.  

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Was looking into this last night also and noticed a lot of fluttering over just what's happening during the process.  From what I can tell, it's an enzymatic reaction.  This counts as fermentation.  At least that's my understanding and Merriam-Webster thinks so also.

 

For another interesting thread on the topic, see stackexchange.com.  And here's the commercial machine.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If anyone's interested, the mention of patents in Deryn's Star Chef's link made me curious.  These are the ones I found (there may be others).  US 20070031574 (Han, Song & Eom); US 8187654 (same); US 20110129580 (Ko, Ko & Ko); US 2011029380 (same); EU KR20090055090 (Kim, Kim & Kim).  Most interesting for present purposes is the last one, which is surprisingly similar to the method Kerry is testing.

Edited by pbear
formatting (log)
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, pbear said:

If anyone's interested, the mention of patents in Deryn's Star Chef's link made me curious.  These are the ones I found (there may be others).  US 20070031574 (Han, Song & Eom); US 8187654 (same); US 20110129580 (Ko, Ko & Ko); US 2011029380 (same); EU KR20090055090 (Kim, Kim & Kim).  Most interesting for present purposes is the last one, which is surprisingly similar to the method Kerry is testing.

 

I had read the patent stuff before I found this chefsteps one  - seemed like a shortcut to the same end and that's part of why I chose it.

 

I read that making garlic black is a combination of enzymatic/fermentation and Maillard reactions 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, Kerry Beal said:

I had read the patent stuff before I found this chefsteps one  - seemed like a shortcut to the same end and that's part of why I chose it.

 

I read that making garlic black is a combination of enzymatic/fermentation and Maillard reactions 

 

 

 

If fermentation means microbe action, I don't know if that is possible at that high a temperature.

 

dcarch

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Conversely, I don't think it's possible to get Maillard reactions at that low a temp and almost certain it's not possible to get caramelization.  For reference, McGee gives 250ºF/120ºC as the lower limit for the former and 330ºF/165ºC for the latter (OF&C, 2d ed at p.779).  Even fructose has a lower limit for caramelization of 220ºC/105ºC (id. at p.656).

 

I've tried to find a scientific article on the process, as opposed to hunches by foodies, and so far been unsuccessful.

 

ETA:  Finally found one.  Comprehensive NMR Analysis of Compositional Changes of Black Garlic during Thermal Processing, J. Agric. Food Chem., 2015, 63 (2), pp 683–691, Liang, et al. (2014).  Full text available in pdf and html at this page.  Main focus is on what happens, i.e., the specific amino acid and sugar changes.  As for how, says "may have been caused [in part] by ... Maillard reactions" (pdf at p.6), but doesn't seem to have been a point they considered particularly important.

Edited by pbear
update (log)
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for that link, pbear. Unfortunately the actual article is behind a paywall ($40 an hour apparently) since I suspect that much of it would have gone over my head anyway. I will take your word for what their experiment consisted of and what their conclusions were - and also guess they were not both chefs and scientists like yourself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Kerry.  Good point.  I don't know.  Stated a little differently, McGee is describing the usual process but there may be other pathways to the same result.  And, of course, it's the result we care about, not the process.  Viewed that way, the Liang, et al. study plainly establishes black garlic has the sort of molecules we associate with Maillard reactions.  If it walks like a duck and tastes like a duck ...

 

Deryn.  It's working fine for me.  Are you using the links below the abstract box?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, I did, pbear - but I did hit the full text HTML option .. then just now tried again with the PDF. I get a message that my credentials don't allow me to go further and there is a note on the side of the box that message is in that talks about the price per hour to view. Do you perhaps have a professional or university credential that is letting you in?  

 

As for me I care about safety (during the process, etc.), exactly how to get the best results in the most efficient manner (process) and I am also interested in whether black garlic is fermented or not since fermented is supposed perhaps to have some 'good for you' properties that other delightful and healthy foods that are not fermented may not - wonderful as they may be to eat anyway. Fermented or not I love the stuff but I am hoping it IS fermented.

Edited by Deryn (log)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry, Deryn, I'm stumped.  No, I don't have any sort of professional or university access.  And was pleasantly surprised this article wasn't behind a paywall, as I run into that often.  Here's another link you can try, which I got from Google Scholar.  As for fermentation, no, black garlic isn't fermented in the sense of being probiotic.  Enzymatic fermentation is a different thing.  Here, it seems, enzymes are breaking down certain molecules, which then recombine due to heat and time.

 

dcarch, not disputing you, but how do you know that?  And there are several reasons it might be true, including acidity and low available water.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yay. That last link worked, pbear. Thank you so much. So I guess there is much misunderstanding in the culinary world about the nuances of the term 'fermentation' (which, it looks to me, should always be accompanied by an adjective). That probably accounts for the fact that so many sites, etc. talk about how black garlic is 'fermented' implying that would mean they deliver the same benefits, etc. as yogourt or kimchi or black bean sauce, or kombucha or beer for that matter - and that those are all like each other - just 'fermented' foods.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

47 minutes ago, pbear said:

 

dcarch, not disputing you, but how do you know that?  And there are several reasons it might be true, including acidity and low available water.

 

I use a lot of black garlic. I have some which must be 5 years old. They don't taste any different.

 

dcarch

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Deryn, you're welcome.  FWIW, I think probiotic is overrated.  Your natural gut flora are just fine in almost all cases, post certain aggressive antibiotic regimens being the only exception of which I'm aware.  And, yeah, fermented is marketing.  So are uncured, local, natural and lots of other labels.  What we can say in favor of black garlic is that it's not mixed up in a test tube.  That should be worth something.

 

Edited by pbear (log)
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Kind of late to the party. I ran in to a new three day technique via the great Cooking Issues podcast. The result is a bit different from the longer technique but definitely tastes like black garlic nevertheless, not better nor worse. But the time saving aspect is kind of a big deal, at least for me.

 

You basically just lightly crush whole bulbs of garlic, wrap them in moist paper towels, and wrap that in foil. The "cooking" part is just 3 days in 80-85 degrees Celsius or around 180 Fahrenheit, which I managed to do with a circulator and mason jars. Depending on the use and whether you'd like to keep it in the fridge or room temp, you have to dry it lightly or all the way through. Highly recommend giving this technique a try if you ever make black garlic at home. I also documented this in my own blog. Too bad it's in Finnish though, so not many of you will get much out of it.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Deryn said:

Thank you, VilleN. Do you happen to remember in which # podcast this method was discussed?

 

Looks like it was Episode 52.  That's based only on the opening blurb, though.  Haven't listened to confirm.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks, pbear. I just listened to that (#52) podcast and Dave talks about black garlic (in response to a question sent to him via email) in the very last 'discussion' starting around the 41:50 mark.

 

I found the discussion more than a bit 'scattered' and very general. He talked about what it is and about the fact that black garlic is not 'fermented' per se (and why not), as well as about using a dehydrator to make it (primarily just about the best temperature range to aim for - and how to keep humidity in using a container well wrapped - but not even timing). This particular podcast being from 5 years ago now I would bet that if Dave himself has made any black garlic since then that he has gone the sous-vide route more than likely - or maybe used the combo dehydrator/sous-vide method - but neither was discussed in this podcast as far as I can tell.

 

If VilleN got a revolutionary '3 day technique' description from that particular podcast I really must have missed something because I didn't hear it. On the other hand, Dave does talk fast and wanders around topics considerably at times so perhaps my attention span and brain are not quite in sync with listening to that kind of conversation any more.

Edited by Deryn (log)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The 3-day black garlic technique was developed by Jonny Hunter and was discussed briefly at the beginning of Episode 231. (EDIT: It's actually Episode 237). They've talked about it a few times, but I'm not sure if they ever fully outlined the technique on the podcast. I know that Hunter presented the technique at a MOFAD event called pHDelicious that was about the impact of pH on cooking. So they may have tweaked the pH during the warming step to accelerate the process. I'll see if I can find out more.

 

What are people's favorite recipes/applications using black garlic? I have a big container of RioRand brand peeled black garlic cloves and am trying to think of new ways to use them. If you're in the market for pre-made black garlic, I highly recommend the RioRand products. The cloves are gigantic, and the fact that there's a pre-peeled option is great (peeling black garlic can be a bit of a chore since it's soft and sticky).

Edited by btbyrd (log)
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...