Religious Dietary Laws

[La Niña]

But many orthodox would consider you an inferior Jew, and some of them wouldn't even consider you a Jew.

Having worked with many orthodox Jews, I can confirm what Steve says. They might not say so to your face, but they hold in contempt someone who is not as "righteous" as they. On the other side, we have had a number of sporadic social contacts with highly religious (orthodox) Jews and never felt completely comfortable. We always felt like they were uncomfortable having us in their homes, so we never pursued a social relationship with them, nor they with us.

There was clearly a large gulf that separated us.

This is not unique to Jews, but that's what we are talking about here.

Dietary restrictions are a pretty fundamental barrier to easy social realtionships, since so much of social contact revolves around food.

Vivre-I agree with Steve. Thank you for that wonderfully lucid post.

That is the opposite of my experience. I was in the diamond business for many years, and also lived in Israel. I know an awful lot of religious Jews - Hasidim included. Satmar, Lubavitch, Bobov, etc. My universal experience with them has been one of acceptance, the desire to teach, interest in my become more observant without pushing it on me...I have been in their homes, with their families - warmer environments I can't imagine. Maybe it's because I don't judge *them* on any level. I am myself, I easily talk about my choices and reasons, and I listen to theirs. We kibbitz, we shmooze, we talk about children and education and health and everything else under the sun. Just like any other friendships. The food is just one minor aspect of the relationship. I have never, ever been made to feel inferior, or less Jewish. As a matter of fact there is no such thing as less Jewish, by Jewish law. If I'm born to a Jewish mother, I'm a Jew. Period. I may be less observant, even an apekoyres, but still a Jew. With the potential to be a religious Jew - I was once told that it's a mitzvah for a Hasid to hang out with a non-observant Jew, because he might have the chance to bring that non-observant Jew closer to observance. You'd be surprised what a little open-minded dialogue can do. Hasids are people, too. Wackadoo wackadoo wackadoo.

[Fat Guy]

I suppose what is shocking to me is to hear "pious" people, people who make so much of their reverence for God speak with such ill will and venom about another person merely because they are not as "observant" as they.

I very much agree with you, and my feeling about that extends to so-called pious people of all religions. The few truly pious people I've had the pleasure to call friends -- most of whom have been Jewish but some of whom have been Catholic, Protestant, Mormon, Moslem, Hindu, and Buddhist -- have always impressed me with their accepting and non-judgmental attitudes. They're the people I'd want in my foxhole with me, even though I think all religious people are a bit nutty for believing in all this god stuff and especially for not eating bacon, coffee, whatever. Those people who use their piety as a means of asserting superiority are tourists.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Let's face it - you got a major bone to pick with religious Jews and their observances. But it's personal.

The reason I have a bone to pick is that their theology is full of shit and is intended to promote segregationism. Those are the orthodox Jews I grew up with. Do you know any different ones? While I respect their right to practice their religion in the way they see fit, I also know how they speak about me behind my back when I can't hear them. And the reason that it is personal is that they tried to teach me all the wrong things about life. To think poorly of people who were not as religious as they are, to look down on minorities, to think of non-Jews as being less then Jews. Do you know of an orthodox Jewish school that doesn't teach that? If you do, it is in the vast minority of orthodoxy.

You know I hate being lied to. Especially by someone who is making believe that god is on their side. Go stand in front of the pyramids in Cairo and you tell me that it is believable that they let the slaves go for the reasons stated in the bible. How silly it is that they couldn't relate the story as a matter of truths, instead of as a matter of lies intended to scare and deceive in order that people would "obey."

Fat Guy seems to think there is a strain of orthodoxy that is tolerant. And while that night be the case, I think he is describing such a minute portion of the orthodoxy that it doesn't matter. The vast majority are the equivelent of Christians in the bible belt and they have about the same level of tolerancy.

[Max]

Do you see any meaningful distinction between religious and secular dietary restrictions?

My impression has always been that the issue of religious dietary restrictions is control over people's lives by some central authority. Vivremanger makes it clear that the rigidity of dietary laws was imposed by a rabinnate that sought to consolidate their "people" and by extension, their authority over them.

Secular dietary restrictions that are not part of a cult I am unclear about. What examples can you cite? Refusal to eat animal protein is the first to come to mind. People who do so for other than health reasons have some self-imposed moral constraint. Doesn't PITA try to have its values imposed on the population through legislation and social pressure.

[La Niña]

The reason I have a bone to pick is that their theology is full of shit and is intended to promote segregationism. Those are the orthodox Jews I grew up with. Do you know any different ones?

Yes. Read my post above.

Takes all kinds, Steve. I think you're speaking (of course) from your own personal experience with some orthodox Jews, which was, unfortunately, unfortunate. Thankfully there are all kinds of people, and Jews, in the world. "They" is a very big word.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Nina - Read the words in the torah that the people you described believe in and get back to me about that one. They are the biggest contradiction in the world. They promote the worst type of segregationism imagineable. The concept that the people you know are accepting and to say that they believe in those words is an unbelieveable conflict. You might be willing to live with that but I see no reason to. I don't need to be that connected that I have to fool myself about the words, or the people who believe them. I can disassociate myself from those words and still feel like a Jew.

Edited January 1, 2003 by Steve Plotnicki (log)

[La Niña]

You keep asking me the same question which is, why don't I completely discard everything about Judaism from my life? I answered that already. Because that is not how the world I live in works and I am comfortable in that world. So I accept all of the inherent conflicts, ambiguities and inconsistancies that come with that world and I juggle them so they make the most sense in spite of it all. But what I am trying to identify is the difference between seperateness and segregation. And when you pray to god every morning, that is a private act with no consequence to anyone. Even if it is done by a group of people who seperate themselves from the rest of society to pray. But when you won't eat somewhere because of dietary law, or you won't marry someone because of their religion, those are acts that have consequences to others. My having my sons bar mitzvahed had no consequence to anyone. But my not allowing my sons to eat in the home of a non-Jewish friend does.

Here's what should happen. If Jews want to stay kosher at home, fine. But they should not impose their dietary restrictions on non-Jews because it might make those people feel inferior in some way. Like the Iranians who wouldn't attend the dinner in Spain because of the wine. Being gracious guests should be more important and more virtuous then religious dietary law. And considering how religion teaches all of those virtuous things, and proper behavior, the tell that religion is self-serving is that they only promote virtuosity when the religion can sufffer no detriment.

"...how the world I live in works..." - the world in which you choose to separately, dinscintly, identify yourself publicly as a Jew. If that ain't segregationist, I don't know what is. And mind you, I'm not using the word in a negative sense. You are. And what about the bris, which I assume your sons had? A clearer segregationist mark couldn't exist.

And it's completely possible to be a gracious guest and keep one's own kosher limitations. Let's say you don't like brussel sprouts. You really don't like them. You're gonna eat them anyway, or will you eat everything else you're served and just say you don't like brussel sprouts? I have had lots of kosher people eat at my house - with many variations of observance. They were anything but superior in attitude or ungracious. And it makes for interesting conversation.

Let's face it - you got a major bone to pick with religious Jews and their observances. But it's personal.

"I am comfortable in that world. So I accept all of the inherent conflicts, ambiguities and inconsistancies that come with that world and I juggle them so they make the most sense in spite of it all." - Why is that not okay for other Jews, but okay for you?

And what about these points?

[Fat Guy]

Secular dietary restrictions that are not part of a cult I am unclear about.  What examples can you cite?  Refusal to eat animal protein is the first to come to mind.  People who do so for other than health reasons have some self-imposed moral constraint.  Doesn't PITA try to have its values imposed on the population through legislation and social pressure.

Several types of restrictions come to mind: There are all the strains of vegetarianism, veganism, fruitarianism, ovo-lacto-whateveranism, etx., of course. There are various diets that are pitched in such extreme terms that they come across to me as quasi-religious, such as the Atkins diet, the Carbohydrate Addict's Diet, etc. There are also those dietary schemes where meetings, classes, and other sorts of gatherings are involved, such as Weight Watcher's -- this seems to fit quite neatly into the continuum of religion if you accept that things like AA are essentially religious organizations minus the specific Judeo-Christian deity. Then there are the various strains of activism, like PETA and also those wildlife protection people who hand out the wallet cards saying what species you should and shouldn't eat. It is no coincidence, I think, that such campaigns achieve particular traction among lapsed Jews, Catholics, etc., who no longer obey the religious restrictions they were raised with. Sublimation, baby.

[La Niña]

Nina - Read the words in the torah that the people you described believe in and get back to me about that one. They are the biggest contradiction in the world. They promote the worst type of segregationism imagineable. The concept that the people you know are accepting and to say that they believe in those words is an unbelieveable conflict. You might be willing to live with that but I see no reason to. I don't need to be that connected that I have to fool myself about the words, or the people who believe them. I can disassociate myself from those words and still feel like a Jew.

What means by you "still feel like a Jew?" You still haven't answered my question about what you mean by "pro-Jew." Pro-WHAT?

Remember what you wrote in that OTC thread about your rabbi telling you that you don't have to believe in God? I know lots of orthodox Jews who just plain don't think about God all that much. The observe because they observe because that's the way it is for them. I was quite close to a rabbi who died a few years ago and sometimes he would call himself "orthoprax" - meaning that his practice was entirely orthodox but his points of view were very modern. Many orthodox Jews do just that - they observe, even very vigorously, but they don't think all that much about why. Nor are they required to. (Mind you, I do *not* think this is a good thing, at all).

Yeah you might say well then why all that prayer? They say them by rote. Hey, I light Shabbes candles every Friday and I say the bracha. You think Im thinking about what the prayer means, or god? Not at all.

Edited January 1, 2003 by La Niña (log)

[Fat Guy]

I'd like to explore the meaning and significance of the term segregation, since some -- particularly Plotnicki -- place a lot of emphasis on it.

Let's start with a definition. The fairly straightforward one from Merriam-Webster says:

"1 : the act or process of segregating : the state of being segregated 2 a : the separation or isolation of a race, class, or ethnic group by enforced or voluntary residence in a restricted area, by barriers to social intercourse, by separate educational facilities, or by other discriminatory means b : the separation for special treatment or observation of individuals or items from a larger group "

As I mentioned above, to me the distinction between enforced and voluntary is critical. If somebody -- in particularly I'm thinking about whatever is the dominant group in a society -- is telling the members of minority/powerless culture X that they can't eat food Y, I have a problem with that. I'd call that the bad kind of segregation. But if the members of culture X choose not to eat food Y, even though it is just as available to them as it is to everybody else, I see no harm in it. I'd call it harmless segregation.

To me, segregation occurs in many ways, and it's important not to lump them all together.

[Max]

There are various diets that are pitched in such extreme terms that they come across to me as quasi-religious, such as the Atkins diet, the Carbohydrate Addict's Diet, etc. There are also those dietary schemes where meetings, classes, and other sorts of gatherings are involved, such as Weight Watcher's -- this seems to fit quite neatly into the continuum of religion if you accept that things like AA are essentially religious organizations minus the specific Judeo-Christian deity. Then there are the various strains of activism, like PETA and also those wildlife protection people who hand out the wallet cards saying what species you should and shouldn't eat. It is no coincidence, I think, that such campaigns achieve particular traction among lapsed Jews, Catholics, etc., who no longer obey the religious restrictions they were raised with. Sublimation, baby.

People who have trouble controlling themselves need to hand over that control to some authority. You often find people who are trying to recover from severe drug abuse or alcoholism turn to very controlling religious orders. They take away choice and make their lives easier.

The Atkins diet is not quasi-religious, but the kind of "born again" atmosphere that prevails at meetings for some groups uses the same tecniques that revival meetings use. But that is just the trappings.

PETA is an example of an "extremist" group that wants to impose its values and behaiours on the general population. They would be as fascists if they had the power.

If it works for the bible thumpers, it will work for any "movement" with some segment of the population. I often wonder if there were any dietary restrictions or laws promulgated by the nazis when they ruled Germany. It would be odd if there weren't, and I've never read anythng about that.

[La Niña]

Plotnicki, I have a tremendous urge to sit at Ratner's and slam back freezing vodkas and eat blintzes with you and argue all day. Alas.

Once upon a time you put a talmud in the middle of such a table. I am told it's a great, great deal of fun arguing in that way. Not at all unlike what we do all the time.

(Do you drink vodka?)

Edited January 1, 2003 by La Niña (log)

[Nick]

Another observation from the country boy.

NYC/NJ Jews *rule* this site. Quite clear from this thread. OTC was trashed, and along with it the "America" thread which devolved into this same sort of thing. We now have a substitute.

Admin - how many cooks of Arab background (or from any other) that feel that people of the Jewish persuasion *rule* here will be willing to share their recipes or stories at this website. You want to build this into the #1 worldwide food site? You're gonna have to do better. Getting rid of OTC was a good step. Getting rid of stuff like this should be the next.

Nick

[g.johnson]

I think the most interesting part of this topic is the examination of the universality of dietary laws.

The hypothesis that dietary laws are universal is falsified by the absence of such laws in the religion with most members, christianity.

[Fat Guy]

Are you sure?

[Steve Plotnicki]

As I mentioned above, to me the distinction between enforced and voluntary is critical. If somebody -- in particularly I'm thinking about whatever is the dominant group in a society -- is telling the members of minority/powerless culture X that they can't eat food Y, I have a problem with that. I'd call that the bad kind of segregation. But if the members of culture X choose not to eat food Y, even though it is just as available to them as it is to everybody else, I see no harm in it. I'd call it harmless segregation.

Fat Guy - But you are conveniently overlooking the obvious. People don't choose to keep kosher, to any degree, out of thin air. They do it because it's part of a Jewish tradition. But if originally that tradition was formed for the purpose of segregating Jews from the rest of the world, if you follow the tradition you end up reinforcing that aspect of it whether you like it or not. Now maybe you can come up with another purpose but as yet I haven't heard a valid one. That is why in my estimation, laws like kashruth should evaporate as a matter of assimilation. But the ritual of lighting candles on the sabbath need not evaporate because it is done on the privacy of ones home and I can see no negative societal impact.

Nina - No blintzes for this wheat allergic guy. And no vodka either. You're going to have to settle for pastrami at Katz's and a black cherry soda.

[La Niña]

No slivovitz?

And answer my other 2 damn posts awready why don'tcha.

Edited January 1, 2003 by La Niña (log)

[Fat Guy]

Plotnicki, it's good that you've got it all figured out for yourself. But it would be silly -- not to mention dangerous -- in the extreme for you to think you've found the mandatory correct balance for everybody.

[La Niña]

Plotnicki, it's good that you've got it all figured out for yourself. But it would be silly -- not to mention dangerous -- in the extreme for you to think you've found the mandatory correct balance for everybody.

Ma nishtana ha lila ha zeh?

[g.johnson]

Are you sure?

I assume that's addressed to me. I can think of no dietary taboos in the major christian sects*. There are rules about fasting at lent and the (now revoked) Roman prohibition on meat eating on Fridays (again a sort of fast). And Methodists and Mormons discourage drinking but that's more a distaste for intoxication than a taboo.

[La Niña]

Another observation from the country boy.

NYC/NJ Jews *rule* this site. Quite clear from this thread. OTC was trashed, and along with it the "America" thread which devolved into this same sort of thing. We now have a substitute.

Admin - how many cooks of Arab background (or from any other) that feel that people of the Jewish persuasion *rule* here will be willing to share their recipes or stories at this website. You want to build this into the #1 worldwide food site? You're gonna have to do better. Getting rid of OTC was a good step. Getting rid of stuff like this should be the next.

Nick

Woah, Nellie.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Fat Guy - I don't purport to have it figured out. But what I will say is that we are fearful of walking away from it completely and in a way that is just as irrational as believing in god. Considering how I feel, or somebody elses professed aetheism, it makes no sense that we cling to traditions based on laws that if looked at closely are offensive for numerous reasons including ones I raised. So you are right when you say that each person finds their own balance. But I think you would have a hard time disagreeing with me that as a matter of sheer logic we should just walk away.

Part of the problem with doing that is something that Shonfeld raised. The world has a funny way of identifying us as Jews. My need to identify with the religion and the culture stems more from that aspect of my families history then from anything else. But it pisses me off that the theologians try to take advantage of that and sell the religion at the same time.

[Fat Guy]

Are you sure?

I assume that's addressed to me. I can think of no dietary taboos in the major christian sects*. There are rules about fasting at lent and the (now revoked) Roman prohibition on meat eating on Fridays (again a sort of fast). And Methodists and Mormons discourage drinking but that's more a distaste for intoxication than a taboo.

Well now you're talking taboos. Of course there's cannibalism -- I'm pretty sure every Christian sect rejects it -- but I was thinking more along the lines of any kind of regulation. Lent works for me as a good example, as does the requirement of taking communion. Mormons don't indulge in caffeinated beverages, or at least that's how I understand it. The no-meat-on-Fridays thing in Catholicism is an example whether or not it has been repealed -- indeed the fact that people do it anyway is probably the best possible proof of my theory.

[Jason Perlow]

Another observation from the country boy.

NYC/NJ Jews *rule* this site. Quite clear from this thread. OTC was trashed, and along with it the "America" thread which devolved into this same sort of thing. We now have a substitute.

Admin - how many cooks of Arab background (or from any other) that feel that people of the Jewish persuasion *rule* here will be willing to share their recipes or stories at this website. You want to build this into the #1 worldwide food site? You're gonna have to do better. Getting rid of OTC was a good step. Getting rid of stuff like this should be the next.

Nick

Nick, I'm sure you didnt mean that to sound as anti-semetic as it will be perceived. And I'd like to ask of everyone here participating that this not devolve into a "Look! See! Nick is an anti-semite" discussion please.

Yes, the site is owned and run primarily by people of Jewish descent. Fat Guy, Bux, Rosie, Mamster and myself are of Jewish extraction. Several of the other affiliates are not. This doesnt mean we condone this type of discussion occuring constantly, and we didn't organize this site to be a Jewish Foodie Club either. We've had cases of anti-moslem hate speech on this site, and when it has occured, we have clamped down on it severely, and swiftly.

I'd like to take this time to note that this particular thread should be the only area on this site for discussing Jewish Dietary Laws. Fine, as it is on topic, we'll let it sit here for everyone's amusement, unless it should go completely out of control and we start seeing personal attacks. Just like anywhere else on the site.

The fact that it was posted after our removal of OTC to test our level of tolerance, and not for the sake of intelligent discussion, however, irks me.

[La Niña]

Well for one thing, FG has posted extensively on this thread, so I don't think anybody would have realized that the thread was objectionable in any way.

And if NickN's post didn't warrant removal, well I just don't get it. And it ain't the first time he's expressed such an attitude.

Edited January 1, 2003 by La Niña (log)