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KaffirLime

Sous Vide: Recipes, Techniques & Equipment (Part 4)

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Rendering fat by sous vide.

I used Keller's method from under pressure. Results can be seen HERE.

I like this method as it leaves a layer of gelled liquid at the bottom that can be used to fortify stocks and sauces. If I was rendering pork fat by SV, I would cut it into strips instead of grinding so that I could get the cracklins. I think grinding maximizes the yield though..

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I think I remeber a post mentioning someone making stock SV by bagging all the bones and Mirepoix and sticking it into a water bath for a few hours.

Has anyone tried this? as i'm wondering if its worth doing?


"so tell me how do you bone a chicken?"

"tastes so good makes you want to slap your mamma!!"

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I tried something like that once, and did not find it a particularly good method.


Edited by slkinsey (log)

--

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In particular, I'd be concerned that you weren't getting the temperature high enough: I don't think there are any advantages to making a stock with a cooler-temperature water than about 200ºF, you will not get very good flavor extraction. I can't imagine stock benefitting from the additional temperature precision offered by SV, so it just seems like a waste of a plastic bag. origamicrane , am I missing some detail that you are thinking of where SV might bring something to the table?


Chris Hennes
Director of Operations
chennes@egullet.org

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I remember reading a post where someone said they were doing SV stock and the results were good, been trying to look for the post but I can't seem to find it.

To be honest I don't think SV stock would require temperature precision just more the fact the ingredients are all bagged.

The benefits I could see from SV stock is the possibility that the flavours of the bones and aromatics will be stronger and that there is less water required in the bag and so less need for reduction.

Might give it a try over xmas out of curiosity.


"so tell me how do you bone a chicken?"

"tastes so good makes you want to slap your mamma!!"

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Rendering fat by sous vide.

I used Keller's method from under pressure.  Results can be seenHERE.

I like this method as it leaves a layer of gelled liquid at the bottom that can be used to fortify stocks and sauces.  If I was rendering pork fat by SV, I would cut it into strips instead of grinding so that I could get the cracklins.  I think grinding maximizes the yield though..

But with the sous vide method you wouldn't end up with all the little crackling bits - and to me that's one of the things that makes rendering your own lard worth the effort.

As Kerry Beal pointed out, going sv, you'd not be cooking the meat scraps to "cracklins". To do that requires the rendering to have reached frying temperatures (150C+ ?), whereas limiting the rendering temperature to below 100C prevents that.

Frying those bits of meat is going to flavour the rendered fat.

And I think Keller would NOT want that flavour in his lard ...

My expectation is that choosing sv (or adding water to the starting brew, whether blitzed or not) is done with the intention of preventing "frying" and flavouring... The added-water route allows things to be inadvertently speeded up (higher temperature) once the water has evaporated/boiled off. Natch sv prevents that.

Is this the first use of sv to deliberately prevent flavouring? :wink:


Edited by dougal (log)

"If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch ... you must first invent the universe." - Carl Sagan

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I can think of other examples where you might want the pure, unadorned and unaltered flavor of the ingredient to come out. For example, let's say you were going to make a cauliflower purée... You don't want to get any browning. You could steam it or boil it, but that might leach out a lot of the flavor and the cauliflower would be watery, needing reduction to be thick. Or, you could bag it and cook it SV. This would preserve the white color of the vegetable, prevent over/undercooking better than steaming or boiling, keep the vegetable from getting watery, etc. You'd end up with pure, snowy white, just cooked cauliflower that you could run through the Vita-Prep (my next must-have piece of equipment) into a nice thick, silk-smooth purée hat tasted of nothing but cauliflower.


--

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Rendering fat by sous vide.

I used Keller's method from under pressure. Results can be seen HERE.

I like this method as it leaves a layer of gelled liquid at the bottom that can be used to fortify stocks and sauces. If I was rendering pork fat by SV, I would cut it into strips instead of grinding so that I could get the cracklins. I think grinding maximizes the yield though..

But with the sous vide method you wouldn't end up with all the little crackling bits - and to me that's one of the things that makes rendering your own lard worth the effort.

As Kerry Beal pointed out, going sv, you'd not be cooking the meat scraps to "cracklins". To do that requires the rendering to have reached frying temperatures (150C+ ?), whereas limiting the rendering temperature to below 100C prevents that.

Frying those bits of meat is going to flavour the rendered fat.

And I think Keller would NOT want that flavour in his lard ...

My expectation is that choosing sv (or adding water to the starting brew, whether blitzed or not) is done with the intention of preventing "frying" and flavouring... The added-water route allows things to be inadvertently speeded up (higher temperature) once the water has evaporated/boiled off. Natch sv prevents that.

Is this the first use of sv to deliberately prevent flavouring? :wink:

I've since tried it with diced pork fat and while yo do not get the cracklins from the bag, they crisp up quite nicely in a frying pan afterward which is what I meant originally.

The first use of sv in rendering fat is what I think you mean -- correct me if wrong. I would say that is part of the reason. The main reason -- for Keller -- may be that it effectively renders fat without requiring a lot of attention during the rendering process and doesn't take up oven and burner space.

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hey everyone

would you recommend beef tongue or beef cheeks sous vided? both are full of fat flavor and collagen...

If tongue should I remove the skin first (boiling for 5min?).

For either cheeks or tongue should I portion them or cook them whole (bath is big enough and has circulator)

Finally 56C for days sounds right?...

Thanks!!


Edited by Sher.eats (log)

~ Sher * =]

. . . . .I HEART FOOD. . . . .

Sleep 'til you're hungry, eat 'til you're sleepy. - Anon

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Tongue and cheeks are pretty tough, and you want to mobilise the fat, so I would cook rather hotter. Keller recommends 70C/185F for 24 hours.

Tongue is usually brined, and you might want to soak in several changes of water first to remove the salt, although Keller cooks his in brine. That would make it too salt for me, but I guess its depends on how you want to serve it.

I would cook them whole, in seperate bags

It will keep in the bag, unopened for 2 weeks in the fridge

Leave the skin on and peel it when cooked and cooled to lukewarm.

If you want to eat the tongue cold, sliced or in sandwiches, trim and press it into a basin or mould, weight it and let it cool and set. The juice from the bag will jelly.

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hey jackal10, speedy reply!

tongue/cheeks cooked to 70C, the protein part will it be grey but still "smoother" then conventional stove braising? I was thinking of "med rare" cheeks/tongue a la short ribs....

Tongue brining is that for flavour or tenderizing?

Thinking about it tongue is much more fatty then cheeks and its collagen is more finely distributed compared to cheeks which does not have as much "marbling" and its collagen are in bigger lumps?

I am planning to serve the tongue or cheek as main for xmas...


~ Sher * =]

. . . . .I HEART FOOD. . . . .

Sleep 'til you're hungry, eat 'til you're sleepy. - Anon

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Tongue comes out pink, maybe because its usually a cured meat.

Its smoother because you cook it for 24 hours!

IF you are serving as a main you might want to think about presentation

While a whole tongue shaped and pressed is a fine sight, it may spook some people. Its more usually served as a cold cut, or as part of a choucroute or the like. Escoffier gives some suggestions: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ov6IWEB...t8eAN#PPA353,M1

Keller (p 180) does Corned Beef Tongue, pain perdu, watercress leaves, horseradish mousse, oven roasted tomatoes

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tongue/cheeks cooked to 70C, the protein part will it be grey but still "smoother" then conventional stove braising? I was thinking of "med rare" cheeks/tongue a la short ribs....

Tongue brining is that for flavour or tenderizing?

Yes, this works - I have done cheeks at 56C - needs 48 to 72 hours. Comes out great. tongue should be similar.

Brining is to get the cured / corned beef flavor. Try it without first.


Nathan

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Tongue comes out pink, maybe because its usually a cured meat.

Its smoother because you cook it for 24 hours!

IF you are serving  as a main you might want to think about presentation

While a whole tongue shaped and pressed is a fine sight, it may spook some people. Its more usually served as a cold cut, or as part of a choucroute or the like. Escoffier gives some suggestions: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ov6IWEB...t8eAN#PPA353,M1

Keller (p 180) does Corned Beef Tongue, pain perdu, watercress leaves, horseradish mousse, oven roasted tomatoes

so if i'm not curing the tongue, cooked to 70C it will be grey...?

and you said to use 70C to "mobilize the fat" but short ribs are also quite fatty but are excellent at 55C?

haha not going to serve it whole, planning to cut inch thick medallions, cut so that if the skin of the tongue was not removed it would from the ring of the medallion, then browned in butter on presentation side. thanks for escoffier link, v. useful for deciding the sides.

finally, what makes tongue suitable for (or must be?) pre-brined compared to say short ribs? or is it a "tradition" thing?

tongue/cheeks cooked to 70C, the protein part will it be grey but still "smoother" then conventional stove braising? I was thinking of "med rare" cheeks/tongue a la short ribs....

Tongue brining is that for flavour or tenderizing?

Yes, this works - I have done cheeks at 56C - needs 48 to 72 hours. Comes out great. tongue should be similar.

Brining is to get the cured / corned beef flavor. Try it without first.

Thanks, have you tried wagyu cheeks? I've seen ones from Australia @ $5USD/100g (Hong Kong) compared to local (China) cheeks at $1USD/100g. Ultimately not a big price difference but wondering whether sous vide will equalize their differences...

Will get a tongue first thing in the morning!


~ Sher * =]

. . . . .I HEART FOOD. . . . .

Sleep 'til you're hungry, eat 'til you're sleepy. - Anon

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same temp 56C even though it has higher fat content, right?

thanks!!


~ Sher * =]

. . . . .I HEART FOOD. . . . .

Sleep 'til you're hungry, eat 'til you're sleepy. - Anon

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56C for long enough - try 48 hours, but might need 72 depends on the toughness of the cheeks


Nathan

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Hi

I'm cooking a xmas dinner party for 20 this weekend.

Amongst other things I have a 5kg sirloin roast that i am planning to SV.

Here's what i am planning to do.

1. Jaccard the whole roast.

2. Cut it into 2 seperate 2.5kg roasts. (just to make it easier to handle)

3. Sear the exterior on top of the stove in a baking tray.

4. Then bag both seperately.

5. Into a water bath 12 hours at 55C.

6. After the cooking time, take it out and rest for 45 minutes before a final sear with a blowtorch.

Does this look ok ? any pointers?

Do you think 12 hours is adequate for the roast to tenderise a bit? or is it even too long?

I plan to add a marinade to one of the roasts 1Tbs of soya sauce, balsamic vinegar, mustard, pepper and a sprig of thyme and rosemary.

The other i might just simply season unless anyone has a recommendation/suggestions?

thanks all


Edited by origamicrane (log)

"so tell me how do you bone a chicken?"

"tastes so good makes you want to slap your mamma!!"

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Do you think 12 hours is adequate for the roast to tenderise a bit? or is it even too long?

depends on your meat - if it is very tender, then yes that is too long. Sirloin is probably tough enough that it will be OK, but you are taking a risk on that much meat - trying a sample first would let you know for sure...

Jaccard-ing it first probably means you should reduce the time, but it depends on the meat and how tender you like it.


Nathan

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thanks nathan

i'll pull one at 8hrs and see how it is doing, i will rebag and continue if required.


"so tell me how do you bone a chicken?"

"tastes so good makes you want to slap your mamma!!"

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Has anyone sous-vided a cross-rib roast? I am wondering if a 48 hr 135F cook might work wonders on this cheap cut as it does on short ribs?

Thoughts?

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One afternoon last week I landed at the butcher without a plan for dinner. I looked through his meat case and decided I would take home a partial slab of pork spare ribs and try my hand at them in the sous vide set up for the first time. This was a full spare rib cut with the rib tips attached, but I had the butcher trim off the tips to turn it into a St. Louis cut with the tips separate.

By the time I got home I only had a few hours before dinner and consulting cameo chef's table in post #2237 I saw that I didn't have nearly enough time to cook as recommended. I expected this but pushed on anyway. I divided into three portions: Four bones with a single tip; four more bones; and the remaining tips.

I gave each portion a generous sprinkling of bbq rub, set the bath for 178 degrees, and let them go for about 3.5 hours. At the end of that time I took out the bag with the single tip, drained off the liquid, patted dry, applied more rub and put them under the broiler. I broiled on each side for less than five minutes. Then I basted the ribs with bbq sauce and put them back under the broiler for a few minutes on each side.

Results were right about what I expected, which was to say pretty darn good. The meat had tenderized a good amount, there was no amount of unwelcome chew. A little more tender and they'd be in what I'd consider a sweet spot if I were having true barbecued ribs. The fat melted part way, I prefer a little more fat melting, but this was acceptable. The double broiling finishing method left me with both a crispy, flavorful meat exterior and a sticky caramelized sauce layer.

I left the other two portion in the water at 178 for the next couple hours, then I turned the temp down to 170 for the overnight. When all was said and done they had 6-7 hours at 178 and anther ten hours at 170. When finished I cooled them rapidly and stuck them in the fridge.

Earlier this week I had the second portion of ribs, finished the same way. The results here were truly outstanding. The fat melted pretty thoroughly but still just a perfect amount was left behind. The meat was super tender, falling off the bone, but no trace of mush. Ideally I'd have the meat just slightly less tender so it clings to the bone but comes off with little resistance. And again, the finishing method worked great.

Tonight I had the rib tips. These were still good, but not up to par with either batch of ribs. That's probably because ribs tips just aren't as good as the ribs themselves, but next time I might go a little less time with this cut to see if the results improve.

All in all a very successful experiment. I am really looking forward to next time and trying some flavor ideas beyond just bbq. However, I'm by no means abandoning bbq -- has anyone tried giving pork a pre-sous vide smoke in a table top smoker box.

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That was part of the procedure that I developed at the last restaurant that I worked at.

Brined...

24 hours w/kosher salt/brown sugar/chamomile tea/lapsang souchong tea/juniper berries/star anise

Smoked...

62C for 90 minutes w/local apple tree woodchips/chamomile tea/lapsang souchong tea...pulled and chilled

Sous vide...

portioned, packed, and cooked at 68C for 14 hours

The bags were chilled afterward and were kept at serving temp during service. The order came in, the bag was cut, a portion was sliced, and the pig was thrown into an iron pan to crisp.

::sigh::

Another Pork Belly approach.

Cheers.

-tw-


eGullet Ethics Signatory

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I love doing a pre-SV smoke for doing BBQ.... works great for ribs.... the other weekend, I did a SV version of cochinita pibil after watching Rick Bayless do it in a pit in the ground... since I don't have any ground, or a pit, I figured doing it SV was the next best thing...

Took 2 pounds of boneless pork shoulder and coated with achiote/lime juice marinade... then wrap in banana leaves, and smoked (in stovetop smoker) over a combo of hickory and oak for about 30 minutes - in hindsight, I might smoke it a little longer next time...

Then into the bag, and into teh 180F waterbath... I think I left it in there for about 8 hours, but I'd have to check my notes to be sure....

When finished, I pulled it and it was really nice - super tender, but not mush, with a suble smoke flavor, and subtle flavor from the banana leaves, and a lot of the fat rendered out... Then I reduced the liquid in the bag (pork juices, achiote marinade and some fat), and poured over the pulled pork and let it sit in the warming oven until my tortillas were ready...

Put that in a corn tortilla with some pickled onions and some habanero salsa... heaven...

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      6. At Trio we found ourselves using the salamander a great deal. It is very useful for melting sugar, bringing on transparent qualities in things like fat and cheese, cooking items intensely on only one side, and it is a highly controllable non-direct heat source. Due to the air gap between the foodstuff and the heat elements the cook can control the degree of heat applied to the dish based on the technique he is using. It becomes a very versatile tool in the modern kitchen, so much so that we will install three Sodir infrared salamanders.

      Again, this is to insure that all the cooks have access to all of the techniques in the kitchen. As I said before it is important for our cooks to be able to sauté, simmer, poach, fry, grill, salamander, and freeze at the same time and sometimes for the same dish.
      We have a few unusual pieces of equipment in the kitchen; the most is probably a centrifuge. A few months ago Nick and I were driving home from a design meeting and ended up talking about signature dishes and menu repetition. Of course the black truffle explosion came up and he asked if I would have it on the menu at Alinea. I replied a firm no, but shortly thereafter said I would enjoy updating it. We threw around some tongue and cheek ideas like White Truffle Implosion, and Truffle Explosion 2005….I said it was a goal of mine to make a frozen ball with a liquid center….but then dismissed it as nearly impossible. Within a few minutes he said …”I got it…we need a centrifuge” His explanation was simple, place the desired liquid in a spherical mold and place on the centrifuge…place the whole thing in the freezer. Within days he had one in the test kitchen. I guess this is better suited for the kitchen lab topic that we will be starting in a few weeks…
      We are working on a upload of the kitchen blueprints. When those post I plan on going into more detail about certian aspects of the design. Doing so now would be pointless as the viewer does not have a reference point.
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