Jump to content
  • Welcome to the eG Forums, a service of the eGullet Society for Culinary Arts & Letters. The Society is a 501(c)3 not-for-profit organization dedicated to the advancement of the culinary arts. These advertising-free forums are provided free of charge through donations from Society members. Anyone may read the forums, but to post you must create a free account.

KaffirLime

Sous Vide: Recipes, Techniques & Equipment (Part 4)

Recommended Posts

I can definitely recommend the Jaccard. I now use it on just about every steak, even on the finest filet and also some other meats like lamb or venison. I would be willing to bet that many of us have tried Jaccarded meat without knowing.

I have found a few different models of Jaccard online -- could you all recommend a particular one?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Emonster - get the biggest one you can afford - it makes it less effort to cover the entire area of your meat. I bought. I believe, the 40 blade one that has removable covers and a cartridge for the blades.

The benefit of this is that you just remove the blades and have easy cleaning access to the blades and the mechanism.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I received the following reply from the UK Microbiological Safety Division, Food Standards Agency, that may be of interest.

"There are no guidelines that are laid down in any UK or EU regulations for Sous Vide foods. The Agency is aware that Sous Vide is a cooking style that is becoming popular and may be looking into it further."

The FSA does have guidance on the cold storage of vacuum packaged food, and they can be found at:

http://www.food.gov.uk/foodindustry/guidan...oodguid/vpguide

However, their guidance only relates to the prevention of C. botulinum and cook-chill style sous vide cooking.


My Guide: A Practical Guide to Sous Vide Cooking, which Harold McGee described as "a wonderful contribution."

My Book: Sous Vide for the Home Cook US EU/UK

My YouTube channel — a new work in progress.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I can definitely recommend the Jaccard. I now use it on just about every steak, even on the finest filet and also some other meats like lamb or venison. I would be willing to bet that many of us have tried Jaccarded meat without knowing.

I've all but stopped using it with the finer beef cuts - it's so damn effective that I find it makes even sirloin and some well-aged rump steaks simply too tender. With lean, rare meat a little resistance is part of the appeal for me. Definitely a bargain item for using with the tougher cuts, though, and for its effect on juice retention. Every home should have one. :wink:


restaurant, private catering, consultancy
feast for the senses / blog

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I got the Deni 48 blade tenderizer becasue it was much cheaper, the 48 blade catridge one was like an extra 15 bucks at the time.

I am very happy with the device and it does make everything very tender and while it says dishwasher safe I am hesitant to put it in there lest it dulls the blades. However its also very difficult to clean otherwise so it may be the only way. Other then that I am very happy with it and I am not sure if the removable cartridge makes it easier to clean but i imagine so.


Edited by NY_Amateur (log)

Sous Vide Or Not Sous Vide - My sous vide blog where I attempt to cook every recipe in Under Pressure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I bought the official Jaccard one with the removable cartridge. It does make cleaning very easy since it just snaps out and you can throw it in the dishwasher. This doesn't dull the blades in any way.

I think ease of cleaning is very important since you are using it with raw meat and you want it to be thouroughly clean if you are pushing whatever is on the surface of the blade deep into the meat that you will be sealing up and SVing...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is my first post on these fora and I want to start out by thanking all of you who have pioneered the sous vide technique for use in the home; people like me are basically catching a free ride on your coattails, and I do thank you for your previous efforts. This post is kinda wordy so feel free to jump to the end to read the question I am posing :raz:

The equipment I have purchased for this sous vide pursuit includes an Auberins PID controller plus a couple of rice cookers. I'm previously very familiar with PIDs, having installed a couple of them from the individual components years ago in the two commercial heat exchanger espresso machines that grace my kitchen. As an aside, the application of PID controllers to sous vide cooking is hugely less involved than what one has to deal with in a large espresso machine, but I digress.

When I ordered the sous vide equipment, I ordered the controller plus one of those massive 20 cup SS Tiger America rice cookers, from costco.com. The rice cooker took a rather circuitous route to me courtesy of UPS, so it did not arrive until this afternoon, a few days later than scheduled. In the interim I decided to pick up a smaller rice cooker at our local overpriced drug store, and this is what I am writing to ask about today. I have yet to use the 20 cup Tiger, which has 4.5 times the water volume of the smaller "10 cup" Rival model I purchased earlier.

The little Rival rice cooker, rated at 400 watts, will hold about 700 ml of water when full. I foodsavered a 9 oz piece of previously frozen wild sockeye salmon filet yesterday, and sous vided it for 18 minutes at 120F. The surrounding water volume was at least 4x the mass/volume of the vacuum packed salmon, and the controller had no difficulty maintaining the set point temperature within a degree, even though I was too lazy to autotune it to this small rice cooker (I had previously done a dry run with just water in the rice cooker and it did not over or undershoot much over a period of half an hour). I found the resulting fish to be undercooked to my taste, but of course that is a matter of personal preference and perhaps my taste will change. In any event, the degree of doneness appeared to be consistent throughout.

My question is this: I haven't read any posts here or elsewhere about using a very small volume rice cooker for sous vide if one is preparing a very small quantity of food. I am single and cook for myself most of the time, although I do enjoy entertaining as well.

As long as one is surrounding the food to be cooked in enough mass of water that the controller can maintain a stable temperature, and there is several times more water surrounding the plastic vacuumed pouch, is there any reason why a smallish rice cooker (or other device) cannot be used for sous viding rather than using a large cooker such as the Tiger rice cooker I have also purchased?

Thanks in advance for any information and once again, thanks for all the information that has been posted both here and elsewhere that those of us just starting with this technique can take advantage of!

Ken Fox

EDIT: The inside liner of the small Rival rice cooker (model # RC101) indicates the pot holds 1.0 liter, however I measured the capacity by pouring water in with a measuring cup. Surprisingly, it holds 2 liters with the water level nowhere near the rim (e.g. a usable level). I'm thinking about buying a second controller and another rice cooker intermediate in size between the two I have, which will give the possibility of cooking more than one sous vide item at a time, plus the ability to appropriately size the cooker to what it is that is going to be cooked without wasting too much energy in the process.


Edited by Ken Fox (log)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I see no reason why a small cooker cannot be used.

As you said, the fish was evenly cooked, and the temperature reasonably accurate.

There are purists who will say you need temperature control within 0.1C, but for the majority what you have is more than adequate and much better than conventonal cooking.

You may want to consider a small grid to keep the food off the bottom of the cooker, where the temperatue may be different.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was wondering about beef bourguignon SV.

Can anyone suggest appropriate cooking times?

I'm using stewing beef - say silverside cut into slices 2 inches x 1/4 inch thick.

Normally I'd cook fairly hot (its a stew) but the loss of moisture from the meat will not mix well withthe traditional starch thickened sauce

Seems to me there are two approaches:

a) Cook hot, say 72C for 12 hours or more and use the emat juices as the (thin) sauce

or

b) Cook at 58C so the meat retains its moisture but for a really long time, maybe 36 hours, and include a traditional starch based roux.

Any experience, suggestions...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
...  The rice cooker took a rather circuitous route to me courtesy of UPS, so it did not arrive until this afternoon, a few days later than scheduled.  In the interim I decided to pick up a smaller rice cooker ...  I have yet to use the 20 cup Tiger, which has 4.5 times the water volume of the smaller "10 cup" Rival model I purchased earlier.

The little Rival rice cooker, rated at 400 watts, will hold about 700 ml of water when full.  ...

My question is this:  I haven't read any posts here or elsewhere about using a very small volume rice cooker for sous vide if one is preparing a very small quantity of food.  I am single and cook for myself most of the time, although I do enjoy entertaining as well.

As long as one is surrounding the food to be cooked in enough mass of water that the controller can maintain a stable temperature, and there is several times more water surrounding the plastic vacuumed pouch, is there any reason why a smallish rice cooker (or other device) cannot be used for sous viding rather than using a large cooker such as the Tiger rice cooker I have also purchased? ...

EDIT:  The inside liner of the small Rival rice cooker (model # RC101) indicates the pot holds 1.0 liter, however I measured the capacity by pouring water in with a measuring cup.  Surprisingly, it holds 2 liters with the water level nowhere near the rim (e.g. a usable level).  I'm thinking about buying a second controller and another rice cooker intermediate in size between the two I have, which will give the possibility of cooking ...  without wasting too much energy in the process.

First off, "Welcome to eGullet" ! :smile:

Regarding using a "very small" water bath.

1/ You'll chill the water more (and change the level more) when you put your bagged food in.

-- this will matter greatly for "non-equilibrium" sv cooking. (Typically this is implied by a time given as a short and precise number of minutes.) I wonder if this might have contributed to your first effort being "undercooked"?

2/ Because of the temperature drop, you are going to depend on the PID controller to get it back to temperature asap, yet _without_ significant temperature overshoot. My guess is that the less the thermal mass (ie the less water), then the less the temperature response will be 'deadened' - and so, absent the PID, the more 'overshoot' would be likely. The smaller the vessel, the more important it is that the PID controller be correctly (particularly accurately) setup.

3/ The more "crowded" the waterbath, the less good will be the natural heat circulation. So the more crowded, the more uneven the heat in the bath. So the more important it becomes to both do something about helping the temperature even out, and keeping the temperature probe (the measurement position) in the most representative position. People have said an aquarium bubbler makes a cheap and simple stirrer. You might tie your probe to a bamboo skewer so as to locate the sensor at a specific depth in the pot. Things like cake-racks and trivets can be employed to keep your bags from touching the bottom of the pot. And sieves can be refashioned to help keep them submerged! A tiny bit of work on the pot lid should allow it to sit flat, seal pretty well, yet let the probe wire emerge (and the bubbler/circulator enter).

Regarding different baths and PIDs.

You can simulate a smaller bath by only partially filling a big one.

Unless you want to use the things at the same time (maybe at different temperatures), there's no need for a second PID or for a third, mid-size bath.

However, when using the same PID with different baths (or the same bath&heater filled to different levels) you will need different optimised P, I and D settings for each configuration.

You may want to experiment with a (borrowed, hired) laboratory accurate thermometer to check the temperature accuracy of your probe setup.

And then spend some time experimenting to get good settings for P, I and D for the various configurations you may be using.

I'd suggest some bagged water as many time re-usable dummy loads. (Hint: bag as ice cubes, then thaw!) If you are thinking of cooking 2x 100g pieces of fish, make a couple of 100g water bags. Not perfect, but close enough, surely!

The PID does two things for you. It keeps the waterbath temperature stable over the long term. Thats not so hard really for a simple, but high precision on/off thermostat and a 'large' bath with excellent circulation.

However where the PID really earns its keep is in its short-term response to temperature transients. Like putting in a quantity of fish that is 20% of the water mass, and 50C different in temperature - 'tuning' the PID to get the bath quickly back to temperature, without significant overshoot, is possible with a PID; it should be much faster, and with much less overshoot than a 'bang-bang' controller.

Hence, I think tuning your controller response (for different bath configurations) to give rapid response without overshoot (by waterbag experiments) is likely to be even more important, the smaller your waterbath (because the transients are likely to be larger).

You should be able to record the best settings for different configs and re-enter the appropriate settings whenever you use a specific configuration.

It sounds to me that it would be hard to justify buying more kit on the basis of energy saving.

The amount of energy used is pretty tiny.

Although your small pot is rated at 400 watts, that's maximum, flat out, when bringing rice to the boil, and it won't be using anything like that to just maintain a low simmer temperature.

However, improving the insulation of the rice cooker might make a measurable difference to energy consumption.

But remember that changing the insulation is going to change the ideal P, I and D settings, even if everything else remains the same.

Improving the insulation is also going to slow the temperature "fall-off" after an overshoot. So, increasing the risk of overcooking on the overshoot.

The better insulated the pot, as with the smaller the pot, the more critical the PID settings become. IIRC there was something in Auber's application notes discouraging use of an insulated pot, quite possibly for this very reason.

This also suggests that the 'room temperature' should be constant-ish for a specific PID/pot/settings configuration, as great differences (15C?) would noticeably affect the rate of heat loss from the pot, just like changing its insulation.


Edited by dougal (log)

"If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch ... you must first invent the universe." - Carl Sagan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First off, thanks for your lengthy and quite valid responses!

I had independently decided that the tiny Rival rice cooker was going to be suboptimal for anything other than a very tiny "food load," such as maybe a few scallops or something else small, like an entrée for one person. I'm pretty sure at this point that my "suboptimal" results the first time out were related to the food load being a bit too large for the size of the appliance.

On Friday I received the Tiger 20 cup commercial rice cooker, model #JNO-A36U, the same upper end model sold (as one option) by the Sous Vide Magic (Auberins) dealer in Toronto, although I bought it from costco.com. I successfully prepared a chicken breast last night which I will try at a slightly lower temperature the next time, but which came out well.

The Tiger rice cooker is ENORMOUS, and from a practical standpoint I do not want to be tying up so much kitchen counter space with this thing except on occasions where I might have large quantities of food to prepare. I have therefore already purchased a 10-cup sized (5L) rice cooker from ebay which should arrive next week and which (I expect) will become my primary sous vide device. I will likely also buy an aquarium bubbler the next time I'm in a pet store that has one for sale.

I want to raise another couple of issues about PID controllers and cooker modifications, however this post is getting to be so long that appending these issues here will make it too long, so I'll start a separate post below addressing these issues and asking for further advice . . . .

Thanks again!

Ken

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I come to this forum having spent a great deal of time previously working with PID controllers in commercial espresso machines. The goal in using a PID in an espresso machine is to try to attain a degree of espresso shot temperature control that is not normally delivered by the equipment in the stock configuration(s). People who have perused the Auberins website will notice that the site also sells some preconfigured PID equipment that is intended to be installed in certain (simple) espresso machines. The more adventurous among us in the "espresso community" have installed similar equipment in more complex machines, buying the controller (most often a Fuji PXR3), an SSR, and a heatsink separately then cobbling together a custom install. It is also very common in the espresso community to "hack" the espresso machines themselves in order to achieve various objectives. Although way outside of the scope of this post, I think it is fair to say that the application of PID technology to sous vide cooking is far simpler and straightforward than is encountered by espresso machine enthusiasts, who must deal with a system that is constantly being "perturbed" by such actions as making espresso shots and expelling large amounts of steam through a steam wand (massive heat loss) in the process of frothing milk.

But I digress :biggrin:

I'm eager (probably TOO eager) to hack (modify) equipment when it doesn't suit my needs. One obviously needs to consider such issues as potential damage to equipment and safety before proceeding. People using complex water bath systems are presumably designing them as "one-offs," so they are modified from the beginning, but is it common for people using simpler devices, such as rice cookers, to modify them physically for sous vide cooking?

I have been trying to get the huge Tiger rice cooker to "behave" under PID control. There IS a warning on the Auberins documentation about the hyperinsulated commercial rice cookers not being satisfactorily controlled with the PID unless they are operated with the lid opened. This was certainly my observation yesterday in trying to "tame" this beast . . . .

Basically, the heating element produces a LOT of heat in this very well insulated cooker, with the impact of this heat production being delayed, and by the time that the PID controller has shut off the power to the element, due to the setpoint having been reached, the heat continues to rise and there is considerable overshoot of several degrees which takes a long while to reverse (and during which time your food would be "overcooked.")

So far I have tried the following, none of which has (yet) worked all that well:

(1) autotuning: this does not work and the autotune cycle would go on ad infinitum without resolution. I let the system try to autotune itself last night and after 5 hours gave up.

(2) modifying the PID parameters: I've been experimenting with bumping up the P to as high as 250 from the pre-set 180, and the i (which only goes up to 900, max, from the pre-set 700; I've also tried cutting the maximum heat output in the "155 menu" both by itself and in concert with the "P" and "i" modifications. Also, I tried using the "warming" button setting rather than the "heating" setting, however the 52 watts this produces is inadequate to maintain temperatures.

Obviously, these things interract, and although one might curtail overshoot, if this is at the expense of the equipment taking too long to get back to the desired temperature after the food pouch(es) are introduced, then this could be a net negative in spite of better control of overshoot. One could compensate however by preheating the water bath a few degrees above the desired cooking temperature, and with the reduction one gets on introduction of the food, the desired result (stable temps when actually cooking the food) could be obtained.

(3) modifying the rice cooker itself: I took the inner lid off the top and found there were 8 phillips head screws holding the lid together. I removed these and found a soft plastic/silicone seal, insulation, and wiring that presumably is for either an overheating safety mechanism, or is what triggers the cooker to go into "warming" mode rather than "heating" mode after the rice is cooked. Either way, this wiring can best be viewed as a safety mechanism that should not be disturbed. I decided not to modify the rice cooker at this time and reassembled it. My impression is that one could remove the insulation, and probably also the metal piece residing in the steam vent, which would (by reducing the insulation) probably reduce the temperature overshoot period and would give a large port for introducing an aquarium bubbler line plus the probe from the Auberins controller.

My questions at this point are if anyone has come up with a set of PID parameters that work well with this sort of cooker, and failing that (or in combination with that) has anyone "hacked"/modified the rice cooker itself in a way consistent with safe operation, and if so, what were those modifications and what are your results?

These modifications are so simple in comparison to many I have done on espresso machines, that I am eager to try them out, however given my total lack of experience with this sort of equipment and with sous vide cooking in general, I think I ought to step back a bit and see what others have done before I jump in with both feet . . . . .

Thanks for any suggestions.

ken


Edited by Ken Fox (log)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally, I've no idea about that specific rice cooker.

But 1500 watts does seem like massive overkill - which might explain the problem.

I'm a trifle concerned by some references to 'electronic control'.

Ideally you want a totally dumb water heater. (Just like most espresso machines!)

So that the PID controller can do its job of dealing with perturbations without interference.

If the cooker is trying to think for itself, you are just going to be fighting it.

Are there two models, the 36U and the 360? Or is it a common typo across the 'net?

I found a pdf manual for the 360, and it mentioned rapid rice spoilage if the thing was even briefly switched off and on again during 'keep warm' (4th para, page 7). Which sounded to me like very unhelpful behaviour if being bossed by a PID controller.

Maybe you'll need to contact Fresh Meals Solutions in Toronto.


"If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch ... you must first invent the universe." - Carl Sagan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd contact Fresh Meals Solutions if I had bought anything from them, but I think it would be impolite to do so being as I am not a customer :hmmm:

I checked the mfr's website before I ordered the rice cooker, and I believe there is only one model of this rice cooker, at least only one that is sold in the USA: http://www.tigeramerica.com/product_JNO.php I think there is either another model available elsewhere, or the other model was discontinued, or as you suggest, there is a common typo regarding model #s. This is not an electronic device in the sense that it has a brainboard or complex integrated circuits. The switch is mechanical, going between heating, warming, and off. In this way it is not dissimilar from other recommended mechanical rice cookers.

I agree that at least on reflection (now that I have bought the thing) it is overpowered for the application. It does, however, work just fine if you operate it with the lid up. I only observed about a degree or so of temperature variation during the hour plus that I cooked the chicken breast last night.

The power is only one issue, however, as I observed when I tried to use the thing on reduced power through the "155 menu" on the Auberins controller. Even going down to 20 or 25% power, the same behavior is observed albeit reduced in magnitude. What happens is that by the time that the controller "realizes" that the temperature setpoint has been reached, there is still a lot of potential temperature gain to follow coming off of the heating element whose impact on the internal container is a bit delayed in time. This characteristic of this commercial rice cooker is then magnified by the heavy duty insulation which prevents the heat from getting out quickly. Since no PID controller working solely on a heating element can possibly do anything about excessive heat (other than to wait for it to be vented off), the period of overshoot in this hyperinsulated rice cooker is extended.

I think that the mention of rice spoilage in the manual has to do with the fact that these things are designed for use in (Asian) restaurants, and they contain massive quantities of cooked rice when they go onto the warming phase. If the thing was to sit for hours, unheated, in a restaurant setting where the public health is at risk, I can see the cause for alarm.

Finally, your comment about "most espresso machines" behaving like a "totally dumb water heater" is certainly true if you are talking about very cheap low end machines which hugely outsell those that are sold to enthusiasts. The higher end machines that enthusiasts buy nowadays (costing, say, ~$1000 at retail and up) contain a plethora of brain boxes and other integrated circuits that can control everything from boiler temperature to shot extraction pressure to shot volume to boiler fill.

I have two different single group commercial espresso machines, both Cimbali Juniors. One was manufactured in around 1985 and the other about 10 years later. The older one is, as you suggest, a relatively simple and dumb machine (or at least it was before I hacked the crap out of it :biggrin: ). The newer one, which I have also extensively modified, has most of its various behaviors controlled by a brain board, whose replacement would probably cost about a third of what I paid for the whole machine!

ken

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I made some salmon mi cuit tonight:

gallery_61429_3_35318.jpg

This ended up being part of a delicious meal:

gallery_61429_3_43471.jpg

The recipe I used was from here. A full write up and more photos can be found in the blog on my signature.


Sous Vide Or Not Sous Vide - My sous vide blog where I attempt to cook every recipe in Under Pressure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I was wondering about beef bourguignon SV.

Can anyone suggest appropriate cooking times?

I'm using stewing beef - say silverside cut into slices 2 inches x 1/4 inch thick.

Normally I'd cook fairly hot (its a stew) but the loss of moisture from the meat will not mix well withthe traditional starch thickened sauce

Seems to me there are two approaches:

a) Cook hot, say 72C for 12 hours or more and use the emat juices as the (thin) sauce

or

b) Cook at 58C so the meat retains its moisture but for a really long time, maybe 36 hours, and include a traditional starch based roux.

Any experience, suggestions...

I have made it with generic stew meat (trimmed). I have used 142F for 18 hours. The question I was asked was what cut of steak did I use? I have found that with dishes of this type, I use a 2/3 wine reduction and cooked vegetables, although celery should have the strings removed. I did not use and additional liquid other than 2Tbs of the reduced wine. It resulted in a thin, rich sauce which consisyed of the wine and liquid from the meat. I plan to experiment with a low temp thickener such as arrowroot frozen with the wine.

By the way, I found Japanese ice cube trays with 1 Tbs cubes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

did u consider trying doing the potatoes 83 C in the water bath and just doing a potato crush with them instead of a traditional purée?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nope this never even crossed my mind. I wonder what a good time would be, 30 -45 minutes? I could definitely put the butter in there but I wonder how the milk would do frozen, only one way to find out I guess. Definitely a good idea though.


Sous Vide Or Not Sous Vide - My sous vide blog where I attempt to cook every recipe in Under Pressure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

it would probably be fine frozen, but i don't know if you'd need it if you're not puréeing the potatoes... scallions would probably rule tho

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

so im doing sous vide pork belly soon. thing is, im gonna have to let it share a bath with some other things, so i need it to be 64 C. i figure this will be totally fine, since ive seen recommended cooking temps range from 60 up to 88 (!) celsius. if i brine it overnight first, for how long should i keep it in? would 30h be fine?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think brining will significantly affect cook time, but I also don't have any insight into times and temps for pork belly. I say try it and let us know ;) My gut feeling (based on absolutely nothing) is that you will be fine at 30hr.


Sous Vide Or Not Sous Vide - My sous vide blog where I attempt to cook every recipe in Under Pressure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
so im doing sous vide pork belly soon. thing is, im gonna have to let it share a bath with some other things, so i need it to be 64 C. i figure this will be totally fine, since ive seen recommended cooking temps range from 60 up to 88 (!) celsius. if i brine it overnight first, for how long should i keep it in? would 30h be fine?

I've done it at that temperature without brining for 24 hours. They were fork tender but the fat, while cooked, still had not turned fully buttery. 30 hours may give an even better product.

Let us know how it goes.


Nick Reynolds, aka "nickrey"

"The Internet is full of false information." Plato
My eG Foodblog

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think that increasing the time will be much help where fat rendering is concerned -- when I do briskets for 48 hours at 64C there isn't much difference where the fat is concerned from how it is after 24 hrs (however the meat itself is more tender).

Fatty cuts cooked at temps like this need to be trimmed of fat more than when using conventional methods since there does seem to be a threshold below which the fat won't render much at all even when left for a long time (collagen on the otherhand will break down at these lower temps when left long enough).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seems like quite a few people were looking for a place to buy SV/immersion circulators - I got a different dilemma: after upgrade I want to sell mine. What's the best way of doing it - eBay, Craig's list, some other site? Any suggestions?


"It's not from my kitchen, it's from my heart"

Michael T.

***************************************

My flickr collection

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd say ebay and emphasize that it was used for cooking is very clean is in good working order, etc. I bet you could get a decent sum fairly easily.


Sous Vide Or Not Sous Vide - My sous vide blog where I attempt to cook every recipe in Under Pressure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Similar Content

    • By newchef
      So I've now found myself at the water's edge of Modernist Cuisine.  Specifically, using sodium citrate for emulsifying all kinds of cheeses.  What I'm after is making an emulsified Parmesan sauce as well as another emulsified cheese sauce (most likely using Cheddar or Colby) that I can freeze and use later.  I'm a single guy and am no stranger of tweaking recipes for freezing but I haven't done it for modernist stuff yet.  I'd love to make a big batch of cheese sauce, freeze it into ice cubes for up to 3 months or so, and then take a few cubes out to thaw on a weeknight and toss with pasta, drizzle over veggies, etc.
       
      I looked at the modernist cuisine FAQ and saw this specific post about the cheese sauce that is "probably" freeze-able because it uses something called carageenan.  Has anyone been able to freeze sauce and keep it frozen for, say, a few months?  And not have to use carageenan?
       
      Thanks!
    • By WackGet
      Recently I picked up a few different types of emulsifiers in bulk powder form when I saw them in passing at a catering wholesaler.
       
      Having never used powdered emulsifiers before in cooking or baking, I figured I'd find pretty comprehensive instructions for their use on the web - but I can't.
       
      I'm not a stranger to food science but nor am I a chemist. I understand that emulsifiers are at least sometimes prepared by pre-mixing them into a (heated?) liquid or fat and then using the resulting solution in the actual recipe, which may explain why a lot of commercial emulsifier mixtures are packages as tubes of gel or paste. I've also checked several industry-level textbooks about emulsifiers and while they are fantastic for in-depth explanations of the chemistry behind each emulsifier, they do not (as you might imagine) provide guidance on how a lowly baker or cook would actually use a powdered form.
       
      So does anyone know how to prepare and use a dry powdered form of any of the following in a real recipe?
       
      Specifically I am most interested in enhancing baked goods and adding stability to sauces, but would also like to know how to use them for other processes such as sausage-making too.
      E471 Mono- and diglycerides of fatty acids E481 Sodium stearoyl lactylate E482 Calcium stearoyl lactylate E472e DATEM (diacetyl tartaric acid ester of mono- and diglycerides)
        Thanks.
    • By mjbarnard
      I cooked two turkey breasts sous vide. This year had access to the Meater+ thermometer probe which I managed to vacuum seal in the bag without difficulty (it is small). Since it works wirelessly I was able to monitor and it records the internal temperatures at the thickest part of the breast.
      I thought the results were interesting. I cooked at 60C for 8 hours. I have always used https://www.chefsteps.com/activities/a-better-way-to-turkey-cook-that-bird-sous-vide-for-the-best-feast-ever which gives long cooking times at lower temperature. I have found that as according to this page https://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2014/11/sous-vide-turkey-breast-crispy-skin-recipe-thanksgiving.html that 55C gives turkey which is just a little too pink for most tastes. Over the last few years have increased the temperature up to 59/60 and I find it perfect - very moist and tender, but pale not pink.
      See attached images. I changed my mind a couple of times and started at 58 then 60 then 59 again, so ignore the slight variations. The thing I found interesting was that the thickest part (of a large breast) reached 55C in around 1 hour 40 mins and target of 59 in 2 hours 30 mins. Now I appreciate that sous vide is a combination of temperature and time or duration, but the data make me think that around 4 hours would be sufficient, as per the seriouseats table. I have previously used the chefsteps 55-58 for their much longer advised times, up to 12 hours and the meat is still quite pink at the end, so I dont believe 55 for 12 hours would effectively be the same.
      From now on I will watching the internal temperatures with interest. This has always been the (relative) unkown for sous vide amateurs. 


    • By chefg
      I have to say designing the Alinea kitchen has been one of the most exciting experiences thus far in the opening of this restaurant. I have been fortunate to have been “raised” in some of the best kitchens in the country. When I arrived at the French Laundry in August 1996 the “new kitchen” had just been completed. Often times you would hear the man talk about the good old days of cooking on a residential range with only one refrigerator and warped out sauté pans with wiggly handles. When I started about 50% of the custom stainless steel was in place. The walls smooth with tile and carpet on the floors. I recall the feeling of anxiety when working for fear that I would dirty up the kitchen, not a common concern for most cooks in commercial kitchens.
      The French Laundry kitchen didn’t stop, it continued to evolve over the four years I was there. I vividly remember the addition of the custom fish/canapé stainless unit. Allowing the poissonier to keep his mise en place in beautiful 1/9 pan rails instead of the ice cube filled fish lugs. Each advancement in technology and ergonomics made the kitchen a more efficient and exacting machine.
      When I returned to the Laundry this past July for the 10th anniversary I was shocked that it had metomorphisized once again. The butcher room was now a sea of custom stainless steel low boys, the pot sink area was expanded, the walk-in moved, and an office added to the corner of the kitchen. The kitchen as I left it in June of 2001 was beautiful and extremely functional, of course it is even more so now. It is the relentless pursuit of detail and concise thought that allows the French Laundry kitchen to be one of the best for cooks to execute their craft…..16 hours a day.
      This was good motivation.
      When it came time to design my kitchen I drew on experiences at Trio, TFL and other kitchens I was familiar with to define the positives and negatives of those designs. We were faced with a 21x 44' rectangle. This space would not allow for my original kitchen design idea of four islands postioned throughout the kitchen, but ultimately gave way for the current design which I think is actually better than the original. But most the important aspect in shaping the final design was the cuisine. Due to the nature of food that we produce a typical layout with common equipment standards and dimensions do not work. Here is where the team drew on our experiences from Trio. By looking at the techniques we utilized we came to several conclusions.
      1. A conventional range was not our main heat source. We do need the flat tops and some open burners for applications such as braising and limited stock work. But our overall use of this piece of equipment is somewhat low. Given that we wanted four open burners and two flat tops with two ovens I began to source out a reliable unit. We settled on the Molteni G230.

      2. Upon analyzing our other heat source needs we decided to place a large focus on induction. By utilizing portable induction burners we are allowed the flexibility to give as much power as needed to a specific station in the kitchen. Obviously induction’s radiant heat is very low, and this allows us to keep the temperature in the kitchen reasonable, yet the power is quite high. 31,000 BTU's of highly controlable heat. But the main reason for choosing this flexible source of heat is the fact that each chef typically employed at least four different cooking applications on a given night. This huge flux in technique and the realization that the menu would change entirely in 8 weeks time meant that we had to design a kitchen that could evolve on a nightly basis. And last, we are very specific with temperatures; induction makes it easier for us to hold a liquid at a predetermined temperature for long periods of time without fluctuation. They operate between 85 and 500 degrees farenheit. We did a great deal of research on the different producers of induction and favored Cooktek. The fact that they are the only U.S manufacturer of commercial induction cooking equipment and located in Chicago made the decision easier. Their innovative approach to induction may prove to be even more exciting as we are already talking about new product development in the future.

      3. a. The complexity of the presentations and a la minute plate-ups of the food require a great deal of surface area devoted to plating. This was one of the most critical factors in determining the basic shape of the kitchen. The size of some of today's popular plates, the amount detail in each composition, coupled with the fact that producing tasting menus vs. ala carte means sometimes large waves of same dish pick ups made it necessary for us to have over 44' of linear plating surface.
      b. Virtually nothing goes vertical above the 36” counter top in the space. All food, plates, equipment, and dry good storage are contained by under counter units. There are a few exceptions such as the infrared salamanders, the three-door refrigerator, and the hood. This allows all the cooks a clear line of communication between each other and the front staff. It allows me an easy sight line to survey the entire kitchen’s progress with a quick glance.
      Given these two points it seemed obvious that we needed to combine the two and create custom pieces that would fulfill both needs. Large spans of plating surfaces with all food and equipment storage below. As you can see we ended up with two 22’ long units. Each function as a pass and under counter storage.
      The building is 21’ wide wall to wall. This allowed us just enough space to create two lines on each exterior wall with their passes forming a 60” corridor for the pick up of plates and finishing of dishes.
      4. We decided to add a station to the kitchen. At Trio we had five including:
      a. pastry
      b. cold garde manger
      c. hot garde manger
      d. fish
      e. meat
      Now that we had more space, and the ability to give each station multiple heat
      sources regardless of their location in the kitchen, we could spread the workload even further. We also realized it doesn’t make much sense to identify each station by classic French Bragade terms. A saucier did not solely cook meat with classic techniques and prepare various traditional stocks and sauces…in fact quite the opposite. This holds true with most of the stations, with the exception of pastry, but even they will have very unconventional techniques, menu placement and involvement in the kitchen systems. We will add a station that will be responsible for a large majority of the one-bite courses both sweet and savory.
      5.Given the size constraints of the building we realized a walk-in would not be possible in the kitchen. If we were to have one it would be in the basement. Having experienced this at Trio we decided to design the kitchen without a walk-in, making up for the space in various lowboy locations and a three-door reach-in. I experienced the walk-in less environment when I worked at Charlie Trotter’s. It is certainly different, but as with most things if done properly it provides a very efficient environment. It works best in situations where fresh products are brought in daily for that days use. And prevents ordering in large quantities. It also provides us with very specific units to house different items. We will utilize the 3-door refrigerator to store the majority of the vegetables and herbs along with some staple mise en place, and items that cannot be made in very small quantities like stocks. Raw meat will have it’s own lowboys as well as fish, dairy, and all frozen products.
      6. At Trio we found ourselves using the salamander a great deal. It is very useful for melting sugar, bringing on transparent qualities in things like fat and cheese, cooking items intensely on only one side, and it is a highly controllable non-direct heat source. Due to the air gap between the foodstuff and the heat elements the cook can control the degree of heat applied to the dish based on the technique he is using. It becomes a very versatile tool in the modern kitchen, so much so that we will install three Sodir infrared salamanders.

      Again, this is to insure that all the cooks have access to all of the techniques in the kitchen. As I said before it is important for our cooks to be able to sauté, simmer, poach, fry, grill, salamander, and freeze at the same time and sometimes for the same dish.
      We have a few unusual pieces of equipment in the kitchen; the most is probably a centrifuge. A few months ago Nick and I were driving home from a design meeting and ended up talking about signature dishes and menu repetition. Of course the black truffle explosion came up and he asked if I would have it on the menu at Alinea. I replied a firm no, but shortly thereafter said I would enjoy updating it. We threw around some tongue and cheek ideas like White Truffle Implosion, and Truffle Explosion 2005….I said it was a goal of mine to make a frozen ball with a liquid center….but then dismissed it as nearly impossible. Within a few minutes he said …”I got it…we need a centrifuge” His explanation was simple, place the desired liquid in a spherical mold and place on the centrifuge…place the whole thing in the freezer. Within days he had one in the test kitchen. I guess this is better suited for the kitchen lab topic that we will be starting in a few weeks…
      We are working on a upload of the kitchen blueprints. When those post I plan on going into more detail about certian aspects of the design. Doing so now would be pointless as the viewer does not have a reference point.
    • By ronnie_suburban
      It’s the first day of cooking in Alinea's Food Lab and the mood is relaxed. We’re in a residential kitchen but there’s nothing ordinary about it. Chef Grant, along with sous chefs John Peters and Curtis Duffy are setting up. The sight of the 3 steady pros, each in their chef’s whites, working away, does not match this domestic space. Nor does the intimidating display of industrial tools lined up on the counters. While the traditional elements are here in this suburban kitchen: oven, cooktop, sink, so too are the tools of modern restaurant cookery: pacojet, cryovac machine, paint stripping heat gun…wait, a paint stripping heat gun?
      In the physical realm, the Food Lab is a tangible space where the conventional and the unconventional are melded together in the quest for new culinary territory. With Alinea’s construction under way, the team must be resourceful. This meant that renting a space large enough to house both the office and the kitchen aspects of the food lab was out of the question.
      The decision was made to take over a large office space for the research and administrative aspects of Alinea and transform a residential kitchen into the Lab. Achatz and the team would work three days per week at the office researching all aspects of gastronomy and brainstorming new dishes, while managing the project as a whole. The remaining time would be spent in the kitchen executing the ideas formulated at the office. “At first I thought separating the two would be problematic,” says Grant “but in the end we are finding it very productive. It allows us to really focus on the tasks at hand, and also immerse ourselves in the environment conducive to each discipline.” The menus for opening night—containing as many as 50 never-before-served dishes--must be conceived, designed, tested and perfected. The Alinea team does not want to fly without a net on opening night.
      On a more abstract level, the Food Lab is simply the series of processes that continually loop in the minds of Chef Grant and his team. While there is no single conduit by which prospective menus--and the dishes which comprise them--arrive at Alinea, virtually all of them start in Chef Grant's imagination and eventually take form after brainstorming sessions between the Chef and his team. Menus are charted, based on the seasonality of their respective components, and the details of each dish are then laid out on paper, computer or both and brought to the kitchen for development. In this regard, the Food Lab provides something very special to the Chef and his team. “We consider the food lab a luxury,” says Grant. Once Alinea is open and the restaurant’s daily operations are consuming up to 16 hours of each day, time for such creative planning (aka play) will be scarce. Building a library of concepts, ideas and plans for future menus now will be extraordinarily valuable in the future. Otherwise, such planning sessions will have to take place in the 17th and 18th hours of future workdays, as they did when the Chef and his team were at Trio.
      Today, several projects are planned and the Chefs dig into their preparations as soon as their equipment setup is complete…
      Poached Broccoli Stem with wild Coho roe, crispy bread, grapefruit
      Stem cooked sous vide (butter, salt, granulated cane juice)
      Machine-sliced thin bread
      Dairyless grapefruit “pudding”
      Dried Crème Brulee
      Caramel orb shell made with bubble maker and heat gun
      Powdered interior made with dried butterfat, egg yolks, powdered sugar & vanilla
      PB&J
      Peeled grapes on the stem
      Peanut butter coating
      Wrap in brioche
      Broil
      Micro-grated, roasted peanuts
      Instant Tropical Pudding
      Freeze Dried Powders of coconut, pineapple, banana
      Young coconut water spiked with rum
      Muscovado Sugar
      Cilantro
      Candied Chili
      Jamaican Peppercorn
      Vanilla Bean
      The steps required to comprise each dish are, as one might imagine, intricate and numerous. For the Poached Broccoli Stem, Chef Grant begins by separating the broccoli stems from the florets. The stems are stripped of their fibrous exteriors and pared down until they are uniform in size. Grant comments on the use of the second hand part of the vegetable: “This dish started with the roe. Every year we receive the most amazing Brook Trout Roe from Steve Stallard, my friend and owner of Blis. Typically, we serve the eggs with an element of sweetness. I find it goes very well with the ultra fresh salinity of the week-old roe. This time around we wanted to take a savory approach so I began looking into complimenting flavors in the vegetal category. About the same time, our group had a discussion about secondary parts of vegetables and the stem of broccoli came up. I had a past experience with the stem and found it to be very reminiscent of cabbage. Knowing that cabbage and caviar are essentially a classic pairing, I felt confident that we could work the dish out. Now I'm struggling to decide if this is a broccoli dish or in fact a roe dish, I think they really battle for the top position and that helps makes the dish very complex."

      Chef Grant processing the broccoli

      The stems are placed in a polyethylene bag, along with butter, salt and granulated cane juice. The bag is sealed with a cryovac machine

      The sealed stems are placed in a 170 degree F water to cook, sous vide, until extremely tender; about three hours

      Broccoli stems after cooking
      The crisp bread element is fabricated via the use of an industrial deli slicer. Chef Grant then brushes the sectioned pieces of poached broccoli stem with eggwash, affixes them to the thin planks of brioche and places them in a fry pan with butter.

      Grant's mise...not your ordinary cutting board

      Poached Broccoli Stem and Crisp Bread cooking

      Ready for plating

      A bright green broccoli puree is made with a vita-prep blender. Here, Chef Grant "mohawks" it onto china given to him by Thomas Keller

      Smoked Coho roe has arrived via Fed-Ex, courtesy of Steve Stallard

      Chef Grant devises a plating scheme for the Poached Broccoli Stem while Curtis looks on

      Chef Grant ponders one potential plating of the dish. He called this incarnation 'predictable' and started over.

      Another plating idea. This version is garnished with broccoli petals and ultra-thin slices of connected grapefruit pulp cells. The yellow petals are stand-ins for what will ultimately be broccoli blossoms
      Grant is still displeased at the dish's appearance. "The dish tastes as I envisioned it....texturally complex, with the crispness of the bread, the soft elements of the floret puree and stem, and the pop of the eggs. The buttery richness from the bread gives the stem the flavor of the melted cabbage I loved at the [French] Laundry. And the hot and cold contrasts from the roe and broccoli …I like it…..I just don’t like the way it looks.” Another attempt and the group agrees, it is better but not “the one.” The use of the thinly sliced cross sections of peeled grapefruit energizes the group. In the next rendition, they make small packets with the ultra thinly-sliced grapefruit containing the roe...

      A third plating configuration for Poached Broccoli Stems; this one featuring the packets of roe wrapped in ultra thin sheets of grapefruit pulp cells
      At this point the team decides to move on and come back to it next week. After some conversation they decide that in the final dish, broccoli will appear in at least 5 forms: poached stems, floret puree, some raw form of the stem, the tiny individual sprouts of broccoli florets, and the blooms. Grant feels that Poached Broccoli Stem could be ready for service, although he still envisions some changes for the dish that will make it even more emblematic of his personal style. “Our dishes continue to evolve after they hit the menu. It is important for us to get to know them better before we can clearly see their weaknesses.”
      The thought for the dried crème brulee originated over a year ago when a regular customer jokingly asked for a crème brulee for dessert. “He said it as joke, I took it as a challenge,” says Grant. "Of course, we never intended to give him a regular crème brulee.” The team tried various techniques to create the powder-filled caramel bubble while at Trio to no avail. An acceptable filling for the Dried Crème Brulee has been developed by the Chef and his team but several different methods, attempted today, to create the orb from caramelized sugar have been less than 100% successful.

      Caramel blob awaiting formation. Chef Curtis kept this pliable by leaving it in a low oven throughout the day

      Chef Grant’s initial idea to use a metal bubble ring and heat gun (normally used for stripping paint) to form the bubbles does not work as hoped. Attempts to fashion them by hand also come up short.
      Says Grant, “At Trio we tried a hair-dryer. When Martin told me about these heat guns which get up to 900 degrees F, I thought we had it for sure. If it was easy everyone would do it I guess.” Eventually, Alinea partner Nick Kokonas garners the task’s best result by positioning a small, warm blob of sugar onto the end of a drinking straw and blowing into the other end. The results are promising. Curtis suggests using a sugar pump to inflate the orbs. That adjustment will be attempted on another day.
      “We intentionally position whimsical bite in the amuse slot, it tends to break the ice and make people laugh. It is a deliberate attempt to craft the experience by positioning the courses in a very pre-meditated order. A great deal of thought goes into the order of the courses, a misalignment may really take away from the meal as a whole.” For PB&J, the grapes are peeled while still on the vine and then dipped into unsweetened peanut butter. They are allowed to set–up, and then they are wrapped with a thin sheet of bread and lightly toasted. When the peeled grapes warm, they become so soft they mimic jelly. The composition is strangely unfamiliar in appearance but instantly reminiscent on the palate. PB&J is, according to Grant, virtually ready for service. There are a couple of aesthetic elements, which need minor tweaks but the Chef feels very good about today’s prototype.

      Chef John peels grapes while still on their stems

      Peeled grapes on their stems with peanut butter coating

      Chef Grant studies the completed PB&J in the Crucial Detail designed piece

      PB&J
      Often, creative impulses come by way of Alinea’s special purveyors. “Terra Spice’s support over the past couple of years has been unprecedented, and it has accelerated with the start of the food lab,” says Grant. “It is great to have relationships with people that think like we do, it can make the creative process so much easier. Often Phil, our contact at Terra, would come into the kitchen at Trio and encourage us to try and stump him on obscure ingredients. We always lost, but not from lack of trying. He even brought in two live chufa plants into the kitchen one day.” The relationship has developed and Terra team has really made an effort to not only search out products that the chefs ask for but also keep an eye out for new ingredients and innovations. In August, Phil brought by some samples of products that he thought the Alinea team might be interested in trying.

      Phil of Terra Spice showing the team some samples

      Coconut powder and other samples
      Grant recalls “the most surprising item to me was the dried coconut powder. When I put a spoonful in my mouth I could not believe the intense flavor and instant creamy texture, it was awesome.” That was the inspiration for what is now Instant Tropical Pudding. The guest is presented with a glass filled with dried ingredients. A member of the service team pours a measured amount of coconut water into the glass and instructs the guest to stir the pudding until a creamy consistency is formed.

      The rum-spiked coconut water being added to the powders
      At the end of the day, the Chefs assess their overall effort as having gone “fairly well.” It’s a mixed bag of results. Clearly, the fact that things have not gone perfectly on Day 1 has not dampened anyone’s spirits. The team has purposely attempted dishes of varying degrees of difficultly in order to maximize their productivity. Says Grant, “Making a bubble of caramel filled with powder…I have devoted the better part of fifteen years to this craft, I have trained with the best chefs alive. I have a good grasp of known technique. The lab's purpose is to create technique based on our vision. Sometimes we will succeed, and sometimes we will fail, but trying is what make us who we are." The team's measured evaluations of their day’s work reflect that philosophy.
      According to Chef Grant, “The purpose of the lab is to create the un-creatable. I know the level at which we can cook. I know the level of technique we already possess. What I am interested in is what we don't know...making a daydream reality.” With little more than 100 days on the calendar between now and Alinea’s opening, the Chef and his team will have their work cut out for them.
      =R=
      A special thanks to eGullet member yellow truffle, who contributed greatly to this piece
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...