Jump to content
  • Welcome to the eG Forums, a service of the eGullet Society for Culinary Arts & Letters. The Society is a 501(c)3 not-for-profit organization dedicated to the advancement of the culinary arts. These advertising-free forums are provided free of charge through donations from Society members. Anyone may read the forums, but to post you must create a free account.

KaffirLime

Sous Vide: Recipes, Techniques & Equipment (Part 4)

Recommended Posts

Rendering fat by sous vide.

I used Keller's method from under pressure. Results can be seen HERE.

I like this method as it leaves a layer of gelled liquid at the bottom that can be used to fortify stocks and sauces. If I was rendering pork fat by SV, I would cut it into strips instead of grinding so that I could get the cracklins. I think grinding maximizes the yield though..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think I remeber a post mentioning someone making stock SV by bagging all the bones and Mirepoix and sticking it into a water bath for a few hours.

Has anyone tried this? as i'm wondering if its worth doing?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I tried something like that once, and did not find it a particularly good method.


Edited by slkinsey (log)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In particular, I'd be concerned that you weren't getting the temperature high enough: I don't think there are any advantages to making a stock with a cooler-temperature water than about 200ºF, you will not get very good flavor extraction. I can't imagine stock benefitting from the additional temperature precision offered by SV, so it just seems like a waste of a plastic bag. origamicrane , am I missing some detail that you are thinking of where SV might bring something to the table?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I remember reading a post where someone said they were doing SV stock and the results were good, been trying to look for the post but I can't seem to find it.

To be honest I don't think SV stock would require temperature precision just more the fact the ingredients are all bagged.

The benefits I could see from SV stock is the possibility that the flavours of the bones and aromatics will be stronger and that there is less water required in the bag and so less need for reduction.

Might give it a try over xmas out of curiosity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Rendering fat by sous vide.

I used Keller's method from under pressure.  Results can be seenHERE.

I like this method as it leaves a layer of gelled liquid at the bottom that can be used to fortify stocks and sauces.  If I was rendering pork fat by SV, I would cut it into strips instead of grinding so that I could get the cracklins.  I think grinding maximizes the yield though..

But with the sous vide method you wouldn't end up with all the little crackling bits - and to me that's one of the things that makes rendering your own lard worth the effort.

As Kerry Beal pointed out, going sv, you'd not be cooking the meat scraps to "cracklins". To do that requires the rendering to have reached frying temperatures (150C+ ?), whereas limiting the rendering temperature to below 100C prevents that.

Frying those bits of meat is going to flavour the rendered fat.

And I think Keller would NOT want that flavour in his lard ...

My expectation is that choosing sv (or adding water to the starting brew, whether blitzed or not) is done with the intention of preventing "frying" and flavouring... The added-water route allows things to be inadvertently speeded up (higher temperature) once the water has evaporated/boiled off. Natch sv prevents that.

Is this the first use of sv to deliberately prevent flavouring? :wink:


Edited by dougal (log)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can think of other examples where you might want the pure, unadorned and unaltered flavor of the ingredient to come out. For example, let's say you were going to make a cauliflower purée... You don't want to get any browning. You could steam it or boil it, but that might leach out a lot of the flavor and the cauliflower would be watery, needing reduction to be thick. Or, you could bag it and cook it SV. This would preserve the white color of the vegetable, prevent over/undercooking better than steaming or boiling, keep the vegetable from getting watery, etc. You'd end up with pure, snowy white, just cooked cauliflower that you could run through the Vita-Prep (my next must-have piece of equipment) into a nice thick, silk-smooth purée hat tasted of nothing but cauliflower.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Rendering fat by sous vide.

I used Keller's method from under pressure. Results can be seen HERE.

I like this method as it leaves a layer of gelled liquid at the bottom that can be used to fortify stocks and sauces. If I was rendering pork fat by SV, I would cut it into strips instead of grinding so that I could get the cracklins. I think grinding maximizes the yield though..

But with the sous vide method you wouldn't end up with all the little crackling bits - and to me that's one of the things that makes rendering your own lard worth the effort.

As Kerry Beal pointed out, going sv, you'd not be cooking the meat scraps to "cracklins". To do that requires the rendering to have reached frying temperatures (150C+ ?), whereas limiting the rendering temperature to below 100C prevents that.

Frying those bits of meat is going to flavour the rendered fat.

And I think Keller would NOT want that flavour in his lard ...

My expectation is that choosing sv (or adding water to the starting brew, whether blitzed or not) is done with the intention of preventing "frying" and flavouring... The added-water route allows things to be inadvertently speeded up (higher temperature) once the water has evaporated/boiled off. Natch sv prevents that.

Is this the first use of sv to deliberately prevent flavouring? :wink:

I've since tried it with diced pork fat and while yo do not get the cracklins from the bag, they crisp up quite nicely in a frying pan afterward which is what I meant originally.

The first use of sv in rendering fat is what I think you mean -- correct me if wrong. I would say that is part of the reason. The main reason -- for Keller -- may be that it effectively renders fat without requiring a lot of attention during the rendering process and doesn't take up oven and burner space.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

hey everyone

would you recommend beef tongue or beef cheeks sous vided? both are full of fat flavor and collagen...

If tongue should I remove the skin first (boiling for 5min?).

For either cheeks or tongue should I portion them or cook them whole (bath is big enough and has circulator)

Finally 56C for days sounds right?...

Thanks!!


Edited by Sher.eats (log)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tongue and cheeks are pretty tough, and you want to mobilise the fat, so I would cook rather hotter. Keller recommends 70C/185F for 24 hours.

Tongue is usually brined, and you might want to soak in several changes of water first to remove the salt, although Keller cooks his in brine. That would make it too salt for me, but I guess its depends on how you want to serve it.

I would cook them whole, in seperate bags

It will keep in the bag, unopened for 2 weeks in the fridge

Leave the skin on and peel it when cooked and cooled to lukewarm.

If you want to eat the tongue cold, sliced or in sandwiches, trim and press it into a basin or mould, weight it and let it cool and set. The juice from the bag will jelly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

hey jackal10, speedy reply!

tongue/cheeks cooked to 70C, the protein part will it be grey but still "smoother" then conventional stove braising? I was thinking of "med rare" cheeks/tongue a la short ribs....

Tongue brining is that for flavour or tenderizing?

Thinking about it tongue is much more fatty then cheeks and its collagen is more finely distributed compared to cheeks which does not have as much "marbling" and its collagen are in bigger lumps?

I am planning to serve the tongue or cheek as main for xmas...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tongue comes out pink, maybe because its usually a cured meat.

Its smoother because you cook it for 24 hours!

IF you are serving as a main you might want to think about presentation

While a whole tongue shaped and pressed is a fine sight, it may spook some people. Its more usually served as a cold cut, or as part of a choucroute or the like. Escoffier gives some suggestions: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ov6IWEB...t8eAN#PPA353,M1

Keller (p 180) does Corned Beef Tongue, pain perdu, watercress leaves, horseradish mousse, oven roasted tomatoes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
tongue/cheeks cooked to 70C, the protein part will it be grey but still "smoother" then conventional stove braising? I was thinking of "med rare" cheeks/tongue a la short ribs....

Tongue brining is that for flavour or tenderizing?

Yes, this works - I have done cheeks at 56C - needs 48 to 72 hours. Comes out great. tongue should be similar.

Brining is to get the cured / corned beef flavor. Try it without first.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Tongue comes out pink, maybe because its usually a cured meat.

Its smoother because you cook it for 24 hours!

IF you are serving  as a main you might want to think about presentation

While a whole tongue shaped and pressed is a fine sight, it may spook some people. Its more usually served as a cold cut, or as part of a choucroute or the like. Escoffier gives some suggestions: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ov6IWEB...t8eAN#PPA353,M1

Keller (p 180) does Corned Beef Tongue, pain perdu, watercress leaves, horseradish mousse, oven roasted tomatoes

so if i'm not curing the tongue, cooked to 70C it will be grey...?

and you said to use 70C to "mobilize the fat" but short ribs are also quite fatty but are excellent at 55C?

haha not going to serve it whole, planning to cut inch thick medallions, cut so that if the skin of the tongue was not removed it would from the ring of the medallion, then browned in butter on presentation side. thanks for escoffier link, v. useful for deciding the sides.

finally, what makes tongue suitable for (or must be?) pre-brined compared to say short ribs? or is it a "tradition" thing?

tongue/cheeks cooked to 70C, the protein part will it be grey but still "smoother" then conventional stove braising? I was thinking of "med rare" cheeks/tongue a la short ribs....

Tongue brining is that for flavour or tenderizing?

Yes, this works - I have done cheeks at 56C - needs 48 to 72 hours. Comes out great. tongue should be similar.

Brining is to get the cured / corned beef flavor. Try it without first.

Thanks, have you tried wagyu cheeks? I've seen ones from Australia @ $5USD/100g (Hong Kong) compared to local (China) cheeks at $1USD/100g. Ultimately not a big price difference but wondering whether sous vide will equalize their differences...

Will get a tongue first thing in the morning!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

56C for long enough - try 48 hours, but might need 72 depends on the toughness of the cheeks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi

I'm cooking a xmas dinner party for 20 this weekend.

Amongst other things I have a 5kg sirloin roast that i am planning to SV.

Here's what i am planning to do.

1. Jaccard the whole roast.

2. Cut it into 2 seperate 2.5kg roasts. (just to make it easier to handle)

3. Sear the exterior on top of the stove in a baking tray.

4. Then bag both seperately.

5. Into a water bath 12 hours at 55C.

6. After the cooking time, take it out and rest for 45 minutes before a final sear with a blowtorch.

Does this look ok ? any pointers?

Do you think 12 hours is adequate for the roast to tenderise a bit? or is it even too long?

I plan to add a marinade to one of the roasts 1Tbs of soya sauce, balsamic vinegar, mustard, pepper and a sprig of thyme and rosemary.

The other i might just simply season unless anyone has a recommendation/suggestions?

thanks all


Edited by origamicrane (log)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do you think 12 hours is adequate for the roast to tenderise a bit? or is it even too long?

depends on your meat - if it is very tender, then yes that is too long. Sirloin is probably tough enough that it will be OK, but you are taking a risk on that much meat - trying a sample first would let you know for sure...

Jaccard-ing it first probably means you should reduce the time, but it depends on the meat and how tender you like it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Has anyone sous-vided a cross-rib roast? I am wondering if a 48 hr 135F cook might work wonders on this cheap cut as it does on short ribs?

Thoughts?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One afternoon last week I landed at the butcher without a plan for dinner. I looked through his meat case and decided I would take home a partial slab of pork spare ribs and try my hand at them in the sous vide set up for the first time. This was a full spare rib cut with the rib tips attached, but I had the butcher trim off the tips to turn it into a St. Louis cut with the tips separate.

By the time I got home I only had a few hours before dinner and consulting cameo chef's table in post #2237 I saw that I didn't have nearly enough time to cook as recommended. I expected this but pushed on anyway. I divided into three portions: Four bones with a single tip; four more bones; and the remaining tips.

I gave each portion a generous sprinkling of bbq rub, set the bath for 178 degrees, and let them go for about 3.5 hours. At the end of that time I took out the bag with the single tip, drained off the liquid, patted dry, applied more rub and put them under the broiler. I broiled on each side for less than five minutes. Then I basted the ribs with bbq sauce and put them back under the broiler for a few minutes on each side.

Results were right about what I expected, which was to say pretty darn good. The meat had tenderized a good amount, there was no amount of unwelcome chew. A little more tender and they'd be in what I'd consider a sweet spot if I were having true barbecued ribs. The fat melted part way, I prefer a little more fat melting, but this was acceptable. The double broiling finishing method left me with both a crispy, flavorful meat exterior and a sticky caramelized sauce layer.

I left the other two portion in the water at 178 for the next couple hours, then I turned the temp down to 170 for the overnight. When all was said and done they had 6-7 hours at 178 and anther ten hours at 170. When finished I cooled them rapidly and stuck them in the fridge.

Earlier this week I had the second portion of ribs, finished the same way. The results here were truly outstanding. The fat melted pretty thoroughly but still just a perfect amount was left behind. The meat was super tender, falling off the bone, but no trace of mush. Ideally I'd have the meat just slightly less tender so it clings to the bone but comes off with little resistance. And again, the finishing method worked great.

Tonight I had the rib tips. These were still good, but not up to par with either batch of ribs. That's probably because ribs tips just aren't as good as the ribs themselves, but next time I might go a little less time with this cut to see if the results improve.

All in all a very successful experiment. I am really looking forward to next time and trying some flavor ideas beyond just bbq. However, I'm by no means abandoning bbq -- has anyone tried giving pork a pre-sous vide smoke in a table top smoker box.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That was part of the procedure that I developed at the last restaurant that I worked at.

Brined...

24 hours w/kosher salt/brown sugar/chamomile tea/lapsang souchong tea/juniper berries/star anise

Smoked...

62C for 90 minutes w/local apple tree woodchips/chamomile tea/lapsang souchong tea...pulled and chilled

Sous vide...

portioned, packed, and cooked at 68C for 14 hours

The bags were chilled afterward and were kept at serving temp during service. The order came in, the bag was cut, a portion was sliced, and the pig was thrown into an iron pan to crisp.

::sigh::

Another Pork Belly approach.

Cheers.

-tw-

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I love doing a pre-SV smoke for doing BBQ.... works great for ribs.... the other weekend, I did a SV version of cochinita pibil after watching Rick Bayless do it in a pit in the ground... since I don't have any ground, or a pit, I figured doing it SV was the next best thing...

Took 2 pounds of boneless pork shoulder and coated with achiote/lime juice marinade... then wrap in banana leaves, and smoked (in stovetop smoker) over a combo of hickory and oak for about 30 minutes - in hindsight, I might smoke it a little longer next time...

Then into the bag, and into teh 180F waterbath... I think I left it in there for about 8 hours, but I'd have to check my notes to be sure....

When finished, I pulled it and it was really nice - super tender, but not mush, with a suble smoke flavor, and subtle flavor from the banana leaves, and a lot of the fat rendered out... Then I reduced the liquid in the bag (pork juices, achiote marinade and some fat), and poured over the pulled pork and let it sit in the warming oven until my tortillas were ready...

Put that in a corn tortilla with some pickled onions and some habanero salsa... heaven...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Similar Content

    • By lindaj1
      Is there any recipe from the modernist universe or any other galaxy to make ketogenic (low carb) puff pastry and strudel type doughs?  Unusual ingredients OK.  There must be a way...
    • By haresfur
      I got to thinking after the disgusting job of separating globs of fat from sous vide short ribs and debating never doing them that way again. If the fat renders out in a braise, but not in the sous vide, what temperature would you need to turn the fat liquid to get rid of it? Is it below well-done or do you really have to cook the shit out of it? Is it just temperature or a time&temperature thing?
       
      Along those lines, what happens with marbled, tender cuts? where is the sweet spot between solid fat and something more palatable?
    • By Daily Gullet Staff
      By John Sconzo

      The Daily Gullet is proud to present this, the first in a multi-part, front-row report on the recent "Spain and the World Table" conference. Watch for subsequent installments in this topic.

      In his introduction of Ferran Adria, Thomas Keller -- perhaps the most celebrated American chef ever -- described four elements that go into making a great chef. The chef must be aware. Once aware of one’s culinary and other surroundings that chef can then be inspired, which leads to the ability to interpret those surroundings. But a great chef does not stop there. Instead, the great chef continues to evolve. Ferran Adria, perhaps more than any other chef who has ever lived, is the embodiment of those four elements.

      The moment that Ferran Adria strode towards Thomas Keller on the stage at the CIA/Greystone’s World of Flavors’ “Spain and the World Table” Conference was electric -- as if a giant Van de Graf generator had been turned on. The feeling didn’t subside when Adria took the stage from Keller; it only became more pronounced as the packed crowd rose to its feet, raining applause, admiration and love on the Spanish master. Adria accepted the response with aplomb, and gave it right back to the audience -- and to his fellow Spanish cocineros, who were standing off to the side. He brought each one up to join him on the stage for a rousing thank-you to the conference organizers, sponsors and participants. Once this emotional release subsided, Adria got down to what everyone had been waiting for -- his discussion and demonstration.

      Ferran Adria, with eyes sparkling like the finest cava, began speaking Spanish in a voice as gravelly as the beaches of the Costa Brava, while Conference Chairman Jose Andres translated. The crowd, hushed and straining for every word, moved forward in their seats as Adria explained El Bulli and himself, with a lesson in recent culinary history thrown in. Ferran explained that El Bulli is not a business. While offshoots of El Bulli are operated on a for-profit basis, the restaurant runs without profit as a primary motivation. For example, he said, the greatest difficulty they have is distributing reservations. Given the extraordinary demand and the severely limited supply, he explained that they could simply raise the price of a meal to the point where the supply and demand met. Indeed, the price of a meal at El Bulli is in itself quite reasonable given the stature of the restaurant and well within means of most motivated diners should they be able to get there, and this is how Adria prefers it. He stated that he was not interested in cooking solely for those with the most money. He prefers to work for people with a true interest in exploring the limits of cooking with him. To this end he showed a short film depicting “A Day in the Life . . .” of El Bulli set to the Beatles’ song of the same name. The film showed a couple’s response to the experience.

      Ferran’s voyage into creativity began with a visit to Jacques Maxima at Le Chanticleer Restaurant in Nice, France. He learned from Maxima that to be creative is not to copy. This idea changed his entire approach to cooking -- from making classic cuisine to making his own. Aware of elaborate books of French cuisine, Adria resolved to catalogue his work, the results of which are the richly detailed El Bulli books, published by period. These books, as wonderful as they are, are huge and extremely expensive. During his presentation, Adria announced -- and demonstrated -- that the individual dishes photographed and described in a chronology within each book are all now available online at elbulli.com.

      He finished the philosophical discussion by talking about the general style of haute cuisine that he and others are engaged in. While others have coined the term “molecular gastronomy” to highlight the scientific component of the creativity involved, Adria rejected it, saying that all cooking is molecular: most of his techniques are in fact rather simple and don’t employ radical new technology. Most of the technology that they do use has been around for some time; they have simply adapted it to their own purposes. Nevertheless, he applauds contributions to gastronomy from Harold McGee and other food scientists, and welcomes their collaboration in the kitchen. He has yet to find a term that describes the movement: as of now, he feels that there really is no good name for this style of cooking.

      More than any other single thing, Ferran Adria is known for the use of “foams” in cooking. While he is proud of his achievements with foams, he stressed that while appropriate in some circumstances, the real utility of foams is limited. He bemoans their ubiquity -- and wishes to not be blamed for others’ poor deployment of the concept. In the course of describing this and other techniques, Adria made a point of stating that using them should not be inferred as copying. Techniques and concepts are to be used and shared. He invited everyone to learn and harness whatever they found interesting, and to employ it in to their own pursuits.

      Another set of techniques discussed and demonstrated by the master and his assistant, Rafa Morales from Hacienda Benazuza, included three types of spherification. These included the use of calcium chloride (CaCl) and sodium alginate as well as the converse, and exploration of a new agent, gluconodeltalactone. The original combinations of alginate into CaCl for “caviar” production, and CaCl into alginate for larger “spheres” have chemistry-related limits as to what can be sphericized. In private correspondence, Harold McGee explained to me that Adria described encapsulating a mussel in its own juice. While this would make the dish technically an aspic, unlike conventional aspics it remains a liquid. Adria said that though gluconodeltalactone is very new, and they are just beginning to get a handle on it, he is very excited by it. He also demonstrated a machine for spherification on a larger scale than they had originally been able to do, as well as liquid nitrogen and freeze-drying (lyophilization) techniques. At the conclusion of his demonstration -- and thus the Conference -- the audience once again awarded him a standing ovation.

      While Adria’s appearance was the culmination of the conference, the energy it produced was not just because of his stature in the world of gastronomy -- it was also due to the excitement generated by the conference that preceded it. If there had previously been any doubt, Thomas Keller’s welcome of Adria was a clarion: Spanish cuisine has landed on North American shores and is finding a niche in the North American psyche. Spanish cuisine -- in its multifaceted, delicious entirety -- lives here, too.

      + + + + +

      John M. Sconzo, M.D., aka docsconz, is an anesthesiologist practicing in upstate New York. He grew up in Brooklyn in an Italian-American home, in which food was an important component of family life. It still is. His passions include good food, wine and travel. John's gastronomic interests in upstate northeastern New York involve finding top-notch local producers of ingredients and those who use them well. A dedicated amateur, John has no plans to ditch his current career for one in the food industry. Host, New York.
    • By docsconz
      About Jose Andres
       
      Throughout his career, Jose’s vision and imaginative creations have drawn the praise of the public, the press and his peers. José has received awards and recognition from Food Arts, Bon Appetit, Food & Wine, Saveur, the James Beard Foundation, Wine Spectator, and Wine Advocate. In addition, José has been featured in leading food magazines such as Gourmet as well as the New York Times, the Washington Post, Good Morning America, Fox Sunday Morning News with Chris Wallace, the Food Network, and USA Today.
       
      Widely acknowledged as the premiere Spanish chef cooking in America, José is a developer and Conference Chairman for the upcoming Worlds of Flavor Conference on Spain and the World Table at The Culinary Institute of America at Greystone, November 2 – 5, 2006.
       
      In 1993, Jose moved to Washington, DC, to head the kitchen at Jaleo. From there, Jose took on executive chef responsibilities at neighboring Café Atlantico and later Zaytinya. In July of 2003, Jose embarked on his most adventurous project to date with the opening of the minibar by jose andres at Cafe Atlantico. A six-seat restaurant within a restaurant, minibar by jose andres continues to attract international attention with its innovative tasting menu. In the fall of 2004, Jose opened a third Jaleo and Oyamel, an authentic Mexican small plates restaurant and launched the THINKfoodTANK, an institution devoted to the research and development of ideas about food, all with a view toward their practical applications in the kitchen.
       
      Every week, millions of Spaniards invite Jose into their home where he is the host and producer of “Vamos a cocinar”, a food program on Television Española (TVE), Spanish national television. The program airs in the United States and Latin America on TVE Internacional.
       
      Jose released his first cookbook this year, first published in English, Tapas: A Taste of Spain in America (published in the United States by Clarkson Potter) and shortly after in Spanish, Los fogones de José Andrés (published by Planeta). The book is an homage to Spanish cooking and to tapas, one of Spain's gifts to the world of good cooking.
       
      Jose Andres is passionate, intelligent, dedicated, witty and a fan of FC Barcelona.
       
      Jose has been a member of the eGullet Society since 2004.
       
      More on Jose Andres in the eG Forums:
      Cooking with "Tapas" by Jose Andres
      Vamos a Cocinar - cooking show with Jose Andres
      Jaleo
      José Andrés' Minibar
      Zaytinya
      Oyamel Cocina Mexicana, Crystal City
      Cafe Atlantico
       
      Jose Andres recipes from Tapas in RecipeGullet:
      Potatoes Rioja-Style with Chorizo (Patatas a la Riojana)
      Moorish-Style Chickpea and Spinach Stew
      Squid with Caramelized Onions
    • By gibbs
      With Modernist Cuisine I waited a couple of years and ended up with a copy from the 6th printing run the advantage of this was that all errors picked up in the erratta had been corrected in the print copy.  I am looking to get modernist bread soon and wondered if someone had purchased it recently to check or if someone knew of hand if they have printed any additional corrected runs 
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×