Cookbooks – How Many Do You Own? (Part 2)

[Adam Balic]

What is often mis-remembed is that 'curries' are modern. Sure there are 19th C. curries and mention of cury in the 1500's, but these are nto really related to the current British . No real direct linagages for instance. Most curries of are terrible in a delicious type of way. Bad quality pre-cooked chicken/lamb dipped in one of half a dozen standardised sauces. Taste? Palate? Obviously, but fashionable and serving a purpose in its own way as well. Exactly like May's and Varenne's coking in there own turn.

True. OK, then I wasn't far off-base above after all. There is also another point to consider, which is that the term "curry" covers such a very broad multitude of sins - er, meanings. Even if you stipulate "authentic" (ha!). In the same London you can find both the gawdawful terrible-delicious glop you describe and also some perfectly serious and excellent faithful imports - and linguistically they are all lumped under that same heading of "curry." So it's probably important, in discussing a national propensity toward curry-eating, to specify which forme of cury is in play. I guess what I was trying to get at was simply that though what we now call "curry" may bear practically no resemblance to the "curry" we first encountered or even to the curries of the Raj (my favorite example of curry bastardization being the 1730 Charles Carter version, so smothered in butter that it's a wonder one can taste anything else), still in the mind of the curry eater it bodies forth that sequence of events from an ancestral past in which some intrepid soul tasted a foreign dish, liked it (or was politic enough to pretend to like it!), and forthwith took it unto his bosom and that of his compatriots.

I still contend that whether they like it or just think they like it, the British adopters of curry gave nary a thought to its humor balance, 'cos it was "furrin" and exotic and that humor business was oh, just so last century.

I think one of the difficulties in comparing older recipes with extant forms is that it is very diffiuclt to get an accurate idea of exactly what the dish (the older one) is actually like. These recipes haven't been written by Delia Smith for instance. Many of them obviously leave out many details that are obvious (amounts for instance), but what about the things that are left out and are not obvious?

For instance, this recipe (I have modernised some of the spelling) from "A Proper newe Booke of Cokerye" (mid-16th c.), looks pretty revolting, chicken with grapes (there are numerous variations on this recipe from the time, mostly the spices are altered, but in one lemons/sour oranges are used as the souring agent)

"To bake chekins in lyke paest.

Take your chickens and season them with

a little Ginger and salt, and so put

them into your coffin [pie case] and so put in them

barberries, grapes or gooseberries, and half a

dish of butter, so close them up, and

set them in the oven and when they are

bake, take the yolks of six eggs and a

dishful of verjuice and draw them through a

strainer and set it upon a chaffing dish,

then draw your baked chekins and put them

to this foresaid eggs and verjuice and thus

serve them hot."

But actually when you examin it closely what you see is that it is really what in Greece would be called 'Chicken with Avgolemono Sauce (lemon juice replaced with verjuice etc). It is actually very good and is improved by the addition of leeks/shallots etc. The point being is that this 'Foreign Greek Dish', isn't actually a stranger to Britian (actually an extant English chicken dish, 'Hindle Wakes' uses a similar lemon sauce). In this way I think that 'curries' are more British ethnic then Indian ethnic. They are specific to the British a palate. Sure the quality of the meat isn't brilliant (OK, it is often very poor), but so has most meat for most people in Britian. Curries were only ever foreign on th surface, closer examination indicates that the are British through and through.

[MobyP]

What is often mis-remembed is that 'curries' are modern. Sure there are 19th C. curries and mention of cury in the 1500's, but these are nto really related to the current British . No real direct linagages for instance.

In the Mahabharata (Book 4 "The Book of Virata" Translator J.A.B. Van Buitenen, University of Chicago), thought to be written sometime between 250bce - 250ce (can't remember exactly), Bhima the great Pandava brother goes before the king, disguised as a cook.

Chapter 7, verse 5:

"The Pandava now came up to Virata.

The spirited man looked sad as he spoke.

Said he, "Great King, I am Ballava the cook,

Engage me, I cook most excellent curries!"

Unfortunately I don't read sanskrit, so I can't tell you how fair a translation that is - but I'm told Van Buitenen was characterised by being quite a conservative translator.

[Adam Balic]

Hmm at the moment there is no formal acceptance of the origin of the word 'curry'. There are several similar words in various Indian languages, but sanskrit isn't one of them. The oldest English collection of recipes is known as 'The Forme of Cury', "Cury" is Middle-English for cooking and is derived from the Old-French, some people have vaguely suggested this as a root.

Also the ealiest English mentions of 'Curry' are:

1598 W. PHILLIPS Linschoten 88 (Y.) Most of their fish is eaten with rice, which they seeth in broth, which they put upon the rice, and is somewhat soure..but it tasteth well, and is called Carriel.

1681 R. KNOX Hist. Ceylon 12 They..boyl them [fruits] to make Carrees, to use the Portuguez word, that is somewhat to eat with and relish their Rice.

And neither of these references make it clear what the origin of the word is.

Be that as it may, the point that I was making earlier is that the curries that are eaten all over Britian now, don't really resemble ealier models. These ealier models were recreations by people returning from India to Britain (the 'Clives' curry powder type curries), where as modern curries developed from immigrants from the Sub-continent setting up curry houses, mostly post-1950's and developing dishs to suit the tastes of the British public. These curries aren't found in Indian either. So the same word but describing different types of preparations.

Edited March 5, 2004 by Adam Balic (log)

[MobyP]

(Maggie, sorry for OT)

Adam, isn't there a profound influence in European dialects from the Indian subcontinent? For instance, the Pandava brothers were five in number, and I'd heard that as being the origin of pan in Greek as an early root of the number 5.

[Adam Balic]

(Maggie, sorry for OT)

Adam, isn't there a profound influence in European dialects from the Indian subcontinent? For instance, the Pandava brothers were five in number, and I'd heard that as being the origin of pan in Greek as an early root of the number 5.

Well yes, hence "Indo-European" Languages. Some words are well preseved between sanskrit and modern European languages (apart from Finnish, Basque and Hungarian etc), but this doesn't mean that Sanskrit is the source of all such words. You will not find "Model T Ford" in Sanskrit, so there isn't really any particular reason why you would find "Curry".

[balmagowry]

But actually when you examin it closely what you see is that it is really what in Greece would be called 'Chicken with Avgolemono Sauce (lemon juice replaced with verjuice etc). It is actually very good and is improved by the addition of leeks/shallots etc. The point being is that this 'Foreign Greek Dish', isn't actually a stranger to Britian (actually an extant English chicken dish, 'Hindle Wakes' uses a similar lemon sauce). In this way I think that 'curries' are more British ethnic then Indian ethnic. They are specific to the British a palate. Sure the quality of the meat isn't brilliant (OK, it is often very poor), but so has most meat for most people in Britian. Curries were only ever foreign on th surface, closer examination indicates that the are British through and through.

Fair enough. There are curries that are Indian ethnic, of course, but evidently those aren't the ones you meant. Whether or not your average curry-eater considers them foreign in origin is a moot point, under the circumstances. I don't quite see where any of this speaks, either way, to the humors argument, but perhaps that's just because I haven't quite recovered yet from last night's excesses, the battle cry still ringing... ringing... ringing in my ears...

You raise another interesting point, though - one that (so what else is new) doesn't belong on this thread, at least not in the depth to which I'd love to see it become accustomed: the universality of certain dishes/flavors/themes, among disparate or apparently unconnected cultures. The obvious biggies, like variations on a theme of pasta and bread; the impromptu food "package" consisting of a pancake (or tortilla or crèpe or mu shu pancake, etc.) wrapped around bits of meat and other things; then the more subtle coincidences of flavor like your example above.

I'm endlessly fascinated by these parallels and recurring themes. With some of them it isn't terribly difficult to trace the probable historic/geographic path of their migration; with others, however, it certainly seems as though they sprang up independently from the well of some deep universal need. (There's some horrible neologism for this notion; mercifully it escapes me at this moment.)

[Adam Balic]

Fair enough. There are curries that are Indian ethnic, of course, but evidently those aren't the ones you meant. Whether or not your average curry-eater considers them foreign in origin is a moot point, under the circumstances. I don't quite see where any of this speaks, either way, to the humors argument, but perhaps that's just because I haven't quite recovered yet from last night's excesses, the battle cry still ringing... ringing... ringing in my ears...

One wonders if the inhabitants of India used the word 'curry' to describe 99% of their cuisine as it is used for "Indian" food in the UK (note not debating that there are ethnic Indian curries)? Or for that matter, Thai Red Curry, do the Thai use the word curry? If I make a lamb stew with onions, ginger, pepper, mace, saffron, vinegar or lemon juice and thickened with ground almonds, is this a curry? It it were served in a modern curry house then yes, if served Henry VIII then no? How does that work.

As for humours etc, as I said before, they were window dressing, important etc, but not crucial. From the writing of the period it is obvious that many people took the humours very seriously indeed, but not everybody. Many people just liked the food.

[balmagowry]

As for humours etc, as I said before, they were window dressing, important etc, but not crucial. From the writing of the period it is obvious that many people took the humours very seriously indeed, but not everybody. Many people just liked the food.

Or thought they liked the food....

[SethG]

Two new books for me:

Mexico One Plate At a Time, Rick Bayless; and

Paris Sweets, Dorie Greenspan.

[jo-mel]

I was just running over the new posts and I realized that my latest stack was not here! I remember writing it, but I guess I never clicked 'post'!!

A few days ago, I was in the attic and came across a stash of books that I had forgotten all about. Every so often, when I run out of shelf space, some of my books go to the attic and are all but forgotten. But there they were! It was like meeting old friends.

Soooooo, would you please add 31 more to the list?

[maggiethecat]

55,591.

Welcome to eGullet, FireWire. And although you may someday join the ranks uf us hopelessly addicted cookbook hounds, I'm sure you and Mark are doin' just fine!

[balmagowry]

Log two more for me, please!

I've just received the Dover edition of Alexis Soyer's Pantropheon, which looks utterly delicious; and last night in a fit of enthusiasm over the idea of the Pressure Cooker course I was thrilled to discover that there's a facsimile reprint of Papin's A New Digester or Engine for Softening Bones. Ordered it at once, of course - mighty cheap, too. Very exciting: this will be my third Mallinckrodt.

Oh - and BTW Lorna Sass's To the Queen's Taste arrived yesterday. Don't tally it - I reported when I ordered it; but I just wanted to mention that it's a delightful little volume, intelligently researched and put together. A culinary historian after my own heart, Ms. Sass. Must take a closer look at her Tom Jones.

[marie-louise]

Anyone else besides me in a cookbook slump? Lately nothing appeals, although I did just order a larger bookcase for our breakfast nook, so soon I will have... empty shelf space in the kitchen!!!

[maggiethecat]

Log two more for me, please!

My pleasure. 55,593.

(Thanks for the heads-up on the Soyer!)

[balmagowry]

Log two more for me, please!

My pleasure. 55,593.

(Thanks for the heads-up on the Soyer!)

My great pleasure. I had no idea it existed - just goes to show that it pays to go back and check old sources more often. Found it listed at Foodbooks, a site I had forgotten all about for the past year or two - glad I remembered, because they keep current with the productions of both Prospect and Southover Presses. Bought it via ABE, where I also found his Culinary Campaign, which I've long coveted. Going a little crazy....

[balmagowry]

Going a little crazy....

Going very crazy. What has come over me?

I got so excited, not only over the idea of owning the Papin but over the realization that it would be my third Mallinckrodt Food Classic, that... I went and looked up the series, found that there were only six in all, looked at the titles of the other three, liked what I saw... and ordered them all.

Jackson: An Essay on Bread, 1758.

Appert: The Art of Preserving All Kinds of Animal and Vegetable Substances For Several Years, 1812.

Accum: A TREATISE ON ADULTERATIONS OF FOOD, and Culinary Poisons, 1820.

(The three I already had being Platina's De Honeste Voluptatis, Sir Kenelme Digbie, and the Papin - the latter not yet in my possession but already shipped and tallied.)

eGullet has a lot to answer for.

That's 3 more for me, please. :sigh:

[JAZ]

Four more for me, since I last checked in. Cesar, from the tapas restaurant of the same name in Berkeley (never look at pictures of fried potatoes when you're hungry, unless you plan to buy the book); The New American Chef by Page and Dornenberg (I was resisting, but it went on sale); a surprisingly good effort from the CIA and Weight Watchers (yeah, sometimes I kid myself that I'll start to cook healthy food, and it was on sale too); and The Joy of Mixology by Gary Regan (my personal cocktail god, who will actually be doing a Q&A on eGullet in a couple of weeks).

[geekdoc]

Boy and I thought I was a book slut! My wife has limited me to a shelf of our butler's pantry so there has been some serious editing which I am pretty proud of. That and the fact that the library which has a great collection is right across the street.

Probably a few hundred in my possession, of which only about 50 which I use regularly are out in the open.

Keep in mind that is is coming from a guy who on our last move had over 120 liquor size boxes of LP's left over from my DJ/music studio days (do the math, its over 10,000).

So basically the lithium is working pretty well now.

[JAZ]

Keep in mind that is is coming from a guy who on our last move had over 120 liquor size boxes of LP's left over from my DJ/music studio days (do the math, its over 10,000).

So basically the lithium is working pretty well now.

Damn, and I thought I was bad with a couple of wooden crates of vinyl (mostly bought when I worked for a record store in the early 80's; maybe 500). My excuse is that I still have a working turntable and actually play them. Truth be told, I probably play my albums more often than I cook from my cookbooks.

[maggiethecat]

So basically the lithium is working pretty well now.

geekdoc: Write us all some scripts, please!

55,700. A nice round number. What a great quartet, JAZ, and as always, balma, thanks for your generosity with sources.

[heyjude]

I spent yesterday in Portland, OR pricing 46 boxes of cookbooks for the Friends of the Library.I will likely do this 2 or 3 more times this year. Their big sale is not until the fall, but there will be a smaller one in Gresham in the spring. They promise to be a goldmine for readers and collectors. There are websites to locate library sales and to request specific titles. Many organizations are now selling only online to avoid the enormous amount of work it takes to put on a 2 or 3 day sale. Both www.librarybooksales.org and www.book-sales-in-america.com are great resources. I came home with only 6 books, but 10 little outfits for Iris. Among the many books I left behind are a gorgeous copy of The Epicurean and a full set of The Good Cook. So add 6 for me and PM me if you are interested in either of those. All books priced over $25 are sold online or at Antiquarian Fairs.

[geekdoc]

Damn, and I thought I was bad with a couple of wooden crates of vinyl (mostly bought when I worked for a record store in the early 80's; maybe 500). My excuse is that I still have a working turntable and actually play them.

Just one turntable? My daughters call them the big black CD's, but they get more play than the little silver ones. Just hard to get them into that little slot in the car.

[bigwino]

I've been on a tear lately (Thank you Half.com and used bookstores!) Recent additions:

Le Bernardin Cookbook

Flatbreads and Flavors by Alford & Duguid

Balthazar Cookbook

Jasper White's Cooking from New England (love it!)

Chez Panisse Cooking

The Livebait Cookbook ($2 bargain)

The Lake House Cookbook ($2 bargain)

The Lutece Cookbook

HomeBaking by Alford & Duguid

The Union Square Cafe Cookbook

Lost Recipes by Marion Cunningham

Savoring India by Julie Sahni

How to Cook Meat by Schlesinger & Willoughby

Lidia's Italian Table

Michel Richard's Home Cooking with a French Accent

Chez Panisse Pasta, Pizza & Calzone

So, add 16 for me.

I have A TON of cooking and reading to do now!

[hannahcooks]

Through half.com, I snagged

Mastering The Art of French Cooking, Vol II and

JC's The Way To Cook.

[maggiethecat]

55,724. 10.55 miles.

Way to go, bigwino. I'll have to check out the Jaspar White.