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robirdstx

"Artisan Bread in Five Minutes a Day" Zoe Francois (2010–)

165 posts in this topic

I wouldn't worry too much about the volume at this point, though in the future probably don't let it triple in the initial rise (I usually only let mine double before refrigerating).

Got it thanks Chris.


edited for grammar & spelling. I do it 95% of my posts so I'll state it here. :)

"I have never developed indigestion from eating my words."-- Winston Churchill

Talk doesn't cook rice. ~ Chinese Proverb

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Hi Lesliec,

What a stunning loaf and I love the tutorial! I use this technique for the baguette and epi, but may just add the extra steps for all of my loaves. So glad you are enjoying the method and all the bread you bake.

What is the protein of the flour you are using?

Thanks, Zoë François

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Hi Zoe.

I can't be absolutely certain since I use a supermarket brand, but most of New Zealand's flour comes from one mill, so I suspect the protein is somewhere around 10% (based on the equivalent from the 'non-supermarket' brand, which says it's 10.3%). It's called 'high grade' here and is recommended for bread, pastry and cakes.

Many thanks for creating the book. I've lost count of the people I've introduced to it, and I claim responsibility for at least three sales! When I get some thinking/experimentation time I'd like to use the method for a spicy fruit loaf (or maybe hot cross buns, it being that time of year). Any suggestions?

Thanks,

Leslie


Leslie Craven, aka "lesliec"
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"I wonder if I made a mistake ? The dough almost tripled, 3 hrs, before putting in fridge 14 hours ago, just checked and its now only doubled, the original volume."

I think your going to be fine.

I start with cold water and stick the dough in the fridge imediately. The dough will about triple in 24-48 hours, then it will come down in size to about double or less, as time goes on.

If you used warm water, or left the dough out at room temp for several hours, it will rise right to the top of the container i use (see the pictorial). It then will settle in the fridge.

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Ah! The buns look great. The brioche dough is the one I haven't succeeded with yet, but I've been intending to have another go. Here's a good excuse!

I suspect my problem last time had something to do with mixing - I mixed everything happily, turned round and found the eggs still on the bench. Certain Words were spoken, but I won't repeat them here.

Thanks for directing me to the site, Zoe - I hadn't realised how much was in there. And you'll be most welcome to come and bake in NZ any time you like (we have a real Dutch windmill making 'real' flours - interested?).


Leslie Craven, aka "lesliec"
Host, eG Forumslcraven@egstaff.org

After a good dinner one can forgive anybody, even one's own relatives ~ Oscar Wilde

My eG Foodblog

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"I wonder if I made a mistake ? The dough almost tripled, 3 hrs, before putting in fridge 14 hours ago, just checked and its now only doubled, the original volume."

I think your going to be fine.

I start with cold water and stick the dough in the fridge imediately. The dough will about triple in 24-48 hours, then it will come down in size to about double or less, as time goes on.

If you used warm water, or left the dough out at room temp for several hours, it will rise right to the top of the container i use (see the pictorial). It then will settle in the fridge.

Thank you very much for the formula, tutorial and reply ! Water temp duly noted.

I'm still a novice so they taste MUCH better then they look.

This morning I made two batards from your recipe w/ the aforementioned increase % of the semolina. One I put a little rice/AP mixture and slashed, the other after putting the mix on, brushed with egg white/water and put sesame seeds on, right before putting in the oven. Both rose OK, the sesame collapsed a little in the middle, and either the cut was off which is what I think, or the egg wash being very cold deflated it a bit as once before on a different formula it deflated the dough a lot.

I used a pre-heated stove/stone, put dough on stone and covered with a warmed, only by hot water SS bowl for 10 minutes, uncovered and baked for 14 minutes more. It worked OK, well better than that probably. I'll know more tomorrow after I've eaten more. I just wonder how much better it would taste, if at all, with the water in the hot pan to make steam method ? This was only my second time baking bread with no steam and the first time doesn't count...... :raz:

heartsurgon.jpg

Heartsurgeon.jpg

It tastes good right now. I always wait a day for a final taste judgment as it seems the breads gets more flavorful with time.

It is absolutely extraordinary to me that no mixing, except to minimally incorporate the ingredients together could turn out such a...such a..uh uh....BREAD !


Edited by Aloha Steve (log)

edited for grammar & spelling. I do it 95% of my posts so I'll state it here. :)

"I have never developed indigestion from eating my words."-- Winston Churchill

Talk doesn't cook rice. ~ Chinese Proverb

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a tip with surface washes and seeds

in my experience, when surface washes and seeds are used, you have to reduce the oven temperature (from 450 to 400 degrees) and increase the baking time (25% or so) so that the bread cooks (no gummy interior), but the seeds/surface wash doesn't burn.

your sesame seeds and crust look a tad "toasted".

if you like sesame...you should try nigella seeds (aka black sesame seeds)..sesame on steroids!

if you take a systematic approach, and work on perfecting one element of your bread at a time, you should able to produce bread that is exactly what you want.

if your not weighing your ingredients and using a oven thermometer, start doing it, it will allow you to reproduce your results from batch to batch.

you should also try a few different flours to see what you like. Many people end up using king arthur all purpose. i ended up there. it's worthwhile to try different flours to see just how different they can be!

final tips. bread freezes great! if you make more than you can eat, let it cool off and put it in a heavy duty zip bag and freeze it! you can microwave it later (the crust will become soft). a few minutes in the oven will firm up the crust.

one more final tip. My Walmart sells King Arthur Flour for way less than anyone else.


Edited by Heartsurgeon (log)

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a tip with surface washes and seeds

in my experience, when surface washes and seeds are used, you have to reduce the oven temperature (from 450 to 400 degrees) and increase the baking time (25% or so) so that the bread cooks (no gummy interior), but the seeds/surface wash doesn't burn.

your sesame seeds and crust look a tad "toasted".

if you like sesame...you should try nigella seeds (aka black sesame seeds)..sesame on steroids!

if you take a systematic approach, and work on perfecting one element of your bread at a time, you should able to produce bread that is exactly what you want.

if your not weighing your ingredients and using a oven thermometer, start doing it, it will allow you to reproduce your results from batch to batch.

you should also try a few different flours to see what you like. Many people end up using king arthur all purpose. i ended up there. it's worthwhile to try different flours to see just how different they can be!

final tips. bread freezes great! if you make more than you can eat, let it cool off and put it in a heavy duty zip bag and freeze it! you can microwave it later (the crust will become soft). a few minutes in the oven will firm up the crust.

one more final tip. My Walmart sells King Arthur Flour for way less than anyone else.

Thank you so much. I used toasted sesame seeds but now I am going to find nigella seeds, maybe we will develop muscles while eating them. :smile:

And please, no FINAL tip, as you think about offering any suggestions/tips/insights it will be most welcomed by me & I'm sure all the people on this thread and elsewhere.

Mahalo, steve


Edited by Aloha Steve (log)

edited for grammar & spelling. I do it 95% of my posts so I'll state it here. :)

"I have never developed indigestion from eating my words."-- Winston Churchill

Talk doesn't cook rice. ~ Chinese Proverb

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I have used sesame seeds, nigella seeds (black sesame), a mixture of black and white sesame seeds, and blue poppy seeds, and black poppy seeds.

overall, the nigella seeds were he best in my opinion. Blue poppy seeds...meh.

Black poppy seeds and regular sesame seeds are good as well.

couple of drawbacks to seeds..makes sc

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I have used sesame seeds, nigella seeds (black sesame), a mixture of black and white sesame seeds, and blue poppy seeds, and black poppy seeds.

overall, the nigella seeds were he best in my opinion. Blue poppy seeds...meh.

Black poppy seeds and regular sesame seeds are good as well.

couple of drawbacks to seeds..makes sc

What are the drawbacks to seeds ?

Have you ever put raisins in and if so how ?


edited for grammar & spelling. I do it 95% of my posts so I'll state it here. :)

"I have never developed indigestion from eating my words."-- Winston Churchill

Talk doesn't cook rice. ~ Chinese Proverb

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Steve, a few posts back Zoe herself pointed me at her site (artisanbreadinfive.com). There are a lot of good recipes there, including this one which incorporates raisins. Haven't done it myself yet, but it's on the list ...


Leslie Craven, aka "lesliec"
Host, eG Forumslcraven@egstaff.org

After a good dinner one can forgive anybody, even one's own relatives ~ Oscar Wilde

My eG Foodblog

eGullet Ethics Code signatory

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Steve, a few posts back Zoe herself pointed me at her site (artisanbreadinfive.com). There are a lot of good recipes there, including this one which incorporates raisins. Haven't done it myself yet, but it's on the list ...

Leslie?, thank you for the info and link, the log is proofing as I write in a bread pan


edited for grammar & spelling. I do it 95% of my posts so I'll state it here. :)

"I have never developed indigestion from eating my words."-- Winston Churchill

Talk doesn't cook rice. ~ Chinese Proverb

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I have used sesame seeds, nigella seeds (black sesame), a mixture of black and white sesame seeds, and blue poppy seeds, and black poppy seeds.

overall, the nigella seeds were he best in my opinion. Blue poppy seeds...meh.

Black poppy seeds and regular sesame seeds are good as well.

couple of drawbacks to seeds..makes sc

Heartsurgeon-- Are you using any kind of wash on top of the bread when using the seeds?

Love the nigella seeds and I sometimes use them to replace the caraway in rye bread although, honestly my rye breads have not been that successful, even with the use of clear flour.-----but love those seeds---- good on Naan as well.....

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Well I hope this new batch comes out alright.

I ran out of AP so I used Bread flour. Heart Surgeons based and changed to, 600 G Bread Flour, 200 G both WW and Semolina, 30 G non-diastic malt powder and Organic Barley Malt instead of honey, salt, yeast cut down 25% and a very little bit of the old batter. Boom, doubled in an hour, listened to Chris' advice and put in fridge.

K, I started reading this topic from the beginning and in the first three pages or so, read 4 times, if using bread flour INCREASE WATER at lest 25%........Ye gads, I did not do that. Now, I am sure it was under hydrated. I started debating whether to get the container and add more water or was it too late, being 1 hour room temp rise and 6 hours in the fridge. Got up to get and add, sat down LOL. 15 minutes later, got back up, got the container and added the about 25% more water, mixed as little as I could just to incorporate water as much as possible. Dough fell down to original level when first mixed, just checked it now, 1 hour after adding water and Voilà, as you can see its at lest doubled.

Here's the dough looking 'wet' Think too wet ? I am hoping it will be absorbed as time goes on.

2ndbztchhs.jpg

Here's the dough risen.

2ndbatchHS.jpg

Do you think with adding the water 7 hours later it will be OK ?


Edited by Aloha Steve (log)

edited for grammar & spelling. I do it 95% of my posts so I'll state it here. :)

"I have never developed indigestion from eating my words."-- Winston Churchill

Talk doesn't cook rice. ~ Chinese Proverb

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i have used several different types of wash to hold the seeds (dilute egg wash, pekmez wash, molasses wash), they all tend to burn unless i turn the temp down. The main drawback with the seeds is the extra effort, and the mess (seeds end up all over the house when the kids eat the bread).

It's important to put down the exact weights of all the ingredients used for any discussion of results. by weighing everything, you can intelligently tweak any recipe to the desired result.

I cannot tell if everything will be alright with the recipe listed above, because i can't tell what your hydration percent is. Typically, over 82% hydration (weight of water = 82% weight of flour) and your dough will be overly wet. i prefer about 75% hydration so i can handle the dough and form the shape of bread i like, that's just my personal preference.

it's very instructive to try several different types of flour (all-purpose, bread, different manufacturers) to see just how different the bread will end up, in terms of taste, texture and crust. i would say that you should just started with 75% hydration (middle of the road) with any new flour, and adjust the hydration up or down, depending on the results. Increasing hydration and the second rise time after forming, will tend to improve the crumb (bigger holes in the bread), but make it harder to handle the dough.

i suspect your dough may be excessively wet. let us know how it turns out.


Edited by Heartsurgeon (log)

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i suspect your dough may be excessively wet. let us know how it turns out.

I think you are correct but we won't know for a few days.

I looked at the proof container which has been in the fridge for 12 hours just now. I am surprised that the level the dough had risen too, before I put it in the fridge last night, after mixing the additional water in, is the same hight; approx doubled after incorporating ingredients :wacko:

It has not gone down a fraction of an inch that I can see LOL. Last time, it tripled after initial incorporation of the ingredients and then after placing in fridge, came down to the level it was when right after initial mixing, before proofing.

Yes, Doc I usually am very scrupulous following formula's weights per ingredient, just bought a better scale so I can be more accurate. Documenting flour, yeast, sugars, fats etc used, in what volumes is extremely important to know. Whenever and whatever I can weigh I do so in grams rather than ounces, so I can be more exact. You did the measurements of your formula in grams for that very reason.

This time I guessed based on what I know 750 gms of water looks like from the container I use to weigh water, and tried to visualize 25% more.

Now, in my perfect 20/20 hindsight :cool: I should have weighted 250 gms out and put that in to try to stay inside the parameters and be more exact.

What does it mean, if anyone knows, that it rose and has stayed at the level in the fridge ? If the dough is overly hydrated should it have collapsed, or is there no correlation ?


Edited by Aloha Steve (log)

edited for grammar & spelling. I do it 95% of my posts so I'll state it here. :)

"I have never developed indigestion from eating my words."-- Winston Churchill

Talk doesn't cook rice. ~ Chinese Proverb

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K, I started reading this topic from the beginning and in the first three pages or so, read 4 times, if using bread flour INCREASE WATER at lest 25%........Ye gads, I did not do that. Now, I am sure it was under hydrated.

Steve - I think you are supposed to increase the water by a 1/4 of a cup, not 25%, to increase the hydration to about 81%. When I make one-half of the "original" recipe for the 5 minutes a day loaf, I use 16 oz (454 grams) of KA A/P and/or KA white whole wheat, 13.43 oz (381 grams) of water, 2 1/4 tsp of active dry yeast, and 2 1/4 tsp. of kosher salt. My first try, before reading this thread, using the same flour had a hyration of 75% and was very dense.

Here's a recent loaf I made in my dutch oven:

dutchovenloaf02022010.jpg

Do let us know how your loaf turns out.

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K, I started reading this topic from the beginning and in the first three pages or so, read 4 times, if using bread flour INCREASE WATER at lest 25%........Ye gads, I did not do that. Now, I am sure it was under hydrated.

Steve - I think you are supposed to increase the water by a 1/4 of a cup, not 25%, to increase the hydration to about 81%. When I make one-half of the "original" recipe for the 5 minutes a day loaf, I use 16 oz (454 grams) of KA A/P and/or KA white whole wheat, 13.43 oz (381 grams) of water, 2 1/4 tsp of active dry yeast, and 2 1/4 tsp. of kosher salt. My first try, before reading this thread, using the same flour had a hyration of 75% and was very dense.

Here's a recent loaf I made in my dutch oven:

dutchovenloaf02022010.jpg

Do let us know how your loaf turns out.

Ooops :sad: that's about 4 times what I did add.........should be interesting. LOL


Edited by Aloha Steve (log)

edited for grammar & spelling. I do it 95% of my posts so I'll state it here. :)

"I have never developed indigestion from eating my words."-- Winston Churchill

Talk doesn't cook rice. ~ Chinese Proverb

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i think the reason your seeing a turbocharged rise in your dough is the addition of the Organic Barley Malt. this is going to change the dynamics of the rise.

typically, in the formula i've posted, using cold water, the dough will double to triple in volume over 3-4 hours if left out at room temp. it will stay at that volume in the fridge for 1-2 days, then slowly reduce in volume by about 25 percent.

When formed into mini-buns, and left out at room temp for 2 hours, the formed dough doubles in volume.

many times, i mix the dough and stick it straight into the fridge without any rise time at room temp.

the dough still doubles/triple in volume, but it takes 3-4 days to happen in the fridge. this is what i do when i don't plan to use the dough until the following weekend. Works great.

when you move to higher percent hydration, handling the dough becomes problematic, and getting the dough to keep its shape, and slide off a peel into the oven becomes a nightmare (at least it did for me)

placing (dropping a big blob) of high hydration dough into a pre-heated, heavy dutch oven and covering it with a lid for about half the cook time is a very successful way to make large boules using the high hydration technique. I think Bittman (the culinary equivalent to Chuck Shumer) has written an NYT's article (and a youtube video) on this technique. I've never done it, but the previous post appears to be demonstration of how nicely it works. That's one FINE looking piece of bread....


Edited by Heartsurgeon (log)

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I'm not sure that just dropping a blob (without shaping) onto/into something hot would give the result we would hope for, but I can certainly vouch for 'tenting' the boule or loaf with aluminium foil for the first 10 minutes or so of baking. Just tear off a length of foil, make a loose tent and lay it over the dough once it's in the oven. Expect HUGE rise, but also be prepared to cook an extra few minutes (as much as 10, for me). I do this on a pizza stone, by the way; not in a Dutch oven.

I usually don't bother, since the bread is so good anyway, but it does give spectacular results. But having said that, last night's loaf was pretty spectacular without it. No pictures, and mostly all gone!


Leslie Craven, aka "lesliec"
Host, eG Forumslcraven@egstaff.org

After a good dinner one can forgive anybody, even one's own relatives ~ Oscar Wilde

My eG Foodblog

eGullet Ethics Code signatory

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Heartsurgeon - Oh, thank you!

Pictured below are photos from an early effort. My second loaf, in fact, which explains the poor shaping and slashes. LOL! This one I let rise on cornmeal and then slid/pushed it off the board onto my stone, poured hot water into a pan on the lower rack and closed the oven door. I had a little trouble moving the loaf onto the stone so have used parchment paper and the cornmeal for all subsequent loaves, on the stone or in the dutch oven.

ArtisanBeard-01.jpg

ArtisanBeard-02.jpg

ArtisanBeard-03.jpg

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i recommend watching this video

for a demonstration of the technique i've seen..

just goes to show you lots of different ways to get the desired result.

try lots of different approaches, and figure out what produces the kind of bread you yearn for.

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i recommend watching this video

for a demonstration of the technique i've seen..

just goes to show you lots of different ways to get the desired result.

try lots of different approaches, and figure out what produces the kind of bread you yearn for.

Wow! Hadn't seen that video before. That looks dangerous.

I don't drop my loaf into the dutch oven. I cradle the loaf in the parchment paper and lower it carefully into the hot pan. The loaf doesn't touch the sides of the pan at all.

dutchovenloaf-01.jpg

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