Jump to content
  • Welcome to the eG Forums, a service of the eGullet Society for Culinary Arts & Letters. The Society is a 501(c)3 not-for-profit organization dedicated to the advancement of the culinary arts. These advertising-free forums are provided free of charge through donations from Society members. Anyone may read the forums, but to post you must create a free account.

adey73

Sous Vide: Recipes, Techniques & Equipment (Part 3)

Recommended Posts

Here's the post I was thinking of:
As an experiment (until the immersion circulator I won on eBay arrives), I have set up a 6-quart crock-pot (on low heat) with a PID controller and let it stabilize at 141°F.  I then put in a single thawed (vacuum packed) chicken breast.  The temperature reading on the PID stayed nice and steady the whole time. 

After one hour I checked the water temperature with my favorite thermapen, and found that the temperature ranged from 136°F to 141°F.  The 141°F, of course, was at the temperature probe of the PID (on the bottom of the crockpot) and the 136°F was near the surface in the center of the pot. 

At least in my crockpot, the food seemed to really hamper the normal convection currents in the pot.  Before I put in any food, the water temperature varied by less than 1°F when I measured it at various points with my thermapen.

It also says he was using a crock pot which Auber themselves admit doesn't get as good results as the commercial rice cooker.

You're obviously right that circulation helps, but you can be pretty close without it. Also, do you think there's any benefit to a a thermal circulator over the auber with a submersible pump? I think it'd be pretty hard to justify at that point. We're talking $200 vs $900 (or $400+ if you want to risk lab equipment - certainly a no-no if you want to cook something like un-packaged eggs. There's obviously an attraction to one item that you clip to the side of a stockpot vs several hacked together products, but that seems to be all you're paying for.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There are a couple of issues with your statement.

1) Bacteria is killed by a combination of time and temperature, not temperature alone. Cooking a chicken breast at 140 for 1 hour is just as safe as cooking it to 212.

2) Many bacteria, including one of the deadliest (botulism) is anaerobic, meaning instead of "choking" the microorganism to death, you're actually making it quite hospitable.

I'm sure many people here don't mind answering questions, but making statements like this one, and the one categorically stating that somehow the vacuum pulled by a foodsaver machine makes cooking sous vide with it unsafe, demonstrate little understanding of the topic and little effort of research in this thread.

Jason,

Thank you for repeating my point.

"... in SV our objective is not to depressurize a cooking bag, but rather to remove air/oxygen. The reason is to prevent aerobic microorganisms ( i.e. the ones that need air to function) from multiplying, and thus spoiling the food. The drawback is that anaerobic flora (microorganisms that can only live without oxygen) would flourish, so we have to cook things relatively quickly ( e.g. fish), or for an extended period of time (e.g. meat), because the SV cooking temps are relatively low, and it takes a lot longer to kill harmful anaerobic bacteria..."

As far FoodSaver is concerned, I am not saying FS in unsafe, I am saying IMPROPER VACUUM IS UNSAFE, no matter what kind of equipment was used. Needless to say, a machine with less power would leave more air in the cooking bag, which is not advisable, primarily because of the risk of bag rupture/bacterial contamination.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
"Microorganisms are native to food products, for example - Salmonella is associated with chicken/poultry, E. Coli contaminates beef, etc. Boiling would kill most of those "bugs", but in SV we typically don't get into the boiling water temps (100C), so the solution is to remove ALL air and ALL oxygen ( 19-21% of air content), and pretty much "choke" the harmful microorganisms to death."

I highly suggest you purchase a copy of On Food and Cooking if that is truly your understanding of food adulteration.

You own a great book! I am puzzled, though - are you trying to say that E.Coli and Salmonella are not there, or that those microorganism are not dangerous?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
FoodSaver wouldn't create the full vacuum, and the FS seal is somewhat weak, which is why it's too risky to use it for SV cooking.

That's an interesting statement. Do you have any data to back this up?

Yes, check your FoodSaver manual, it'd would tell you the pressure range for your particular model. A good indicator is freezer burns: if you see them - there is no vacuum.

What i mean is do you have data indicating that using a foodsaver instead of a chamber machine is inherently UNSAFE.

On top of that, i've had steaks in the freeze for over a year, and there is no freezer burn whatsoever.

If you don't see a freezer burn - great! It means you vacuum pack is holding well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
IF you are that worried, double seal and double bag it

I usually put two seals on with my foodsaver, but the bags (and vacuum) are perfectly OK.

If you are that concerned about botulism make sure the food is acid or ina a mildly acid sauce.

Double bags work great.

Chck out this recipe:

https://www.nespresso.com/precom/nmag/4/pdf...046_0051_en.pdf

Why does Heston Blumenthal suggest to double bag the pork belly? Any ideas?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK, at the risk of beating a dead horse I'll have a go at it...

The pressure in a properly sealed vacuum bag is always less than the atmospheric pressure, that's just basic physics and the definition of vacuum. However, in SV our objective is not to depressurize a cooking bag, but rather to remove air/oxygen. The reason is to prevent aerobic microorganisms ( i.e. the ones that need air to function) from multiplying, and thus spoiling the food. The drawback is that anaerobic flora (microorganisms that can only live without oxygen) would flourish, so we have to cook things relatively quickly ( e.g. fish), or for an extended period of time (e.g. meat), because the SV cooking temps are relatively low, and it takes a lot longer to kill harmful anaerobic bacteria ( it's similar to canning/preserving, which is also cooking under vacuum, BTW)

False. Atmospheric pressure is squeezing the sealed bag (trying to 'fill' the vacuum, as it were), until the pressure inside the bag equilibrates (more or less). Think about it: would a full vacuum crush delicate items? Crappy vacuum initially merely means less pressure on the bag after it's been sealed and residual air pockets. There are several advantages to vacuum sealing: one of the most significant for usual purposes is even cooking. No air pockets = full contact with water in bath. Some other useful features of vacuum sealing are to create interesting textures (through compression), better penetration of marinades/sealing, and prevention of oxidation for certain products. There is no significant food safety benefit to vacuum sealing.

Most of the usual nasty critters (Salmonella, E. coli etc..) are facultative anaerobes. They can grow both in the presence or absence of oxygen. SV does sweet nothing to sterilize the food within, only proper temperature control for adequate periods of time can do this (see USDA tables wayy upthread). What's more, the temperatures involved can't even kill botulinum spores, the most dangerous anaerobic bacteria!

Microorganisms are native to food products, for example - Salmonella is associated with chicken/poultry, E. Coli contaminates beef, etc. Boiling would kill most of those "bugs", but in SV we typically don't get into the boiling water temps (100C), so the solution is to remove ALL air and ALL oxygen ( 19-21% of air content), and pretty much "choke" the harmful microorganisms to death.

See above. Removing air does not prevent E.coli and Salmonella growth. Boiling temps are not necessary to kill the bacteria. Consequently, ensuring a good bag seal has nothing to do with bacterial contamination during cooking (obviously, this doesn't apply to stored products). If the nasties can't grow inside the bag, they can't grow in the water!


Edited by Mallet (log)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
FoodSaver wouldn't create the full vacuum, and the FS seal is somewhat weak, which is why it's too risky to use it for SV cooking.

That's an interesting statement. Do you have any data to back this up?

Yes, check your FoodSaver manual, it'd would tell you the pressure range for your particular model. A good indicator is freezer burns: if you see them - there is no vacuum.

What i mean is do you have data indicating that using a foodsaver instead of a chamber machine is inherently UNSAFE.

On top of that, i've had steaks in the freeze for over a year, and there is no freezer burn whatsoever.

If you don't see a freezer burn - great! It means you vacuum pack is holding well.

Freezer burn has nothing to do with vacuum. (Yes, I am going to keep saying you don't truely need vacuum, you just want to remove the oxygen) Even if something was packed in a chamber vacuum sealer it can still freezer burn. The majority of freezer burn is related to the type of material used for the bag or wrap. FoodSaver and many vacuum bags are designed to be an oxygen barrier. Lots of famous label freezer bags and plastic wraps etc will "leak" oxygen over time and cause freezer burn. The nylon material of the outer layer of the FoodSaver boil safe bag gives these bags a certain higher degree of oxygen protection.


Edited by pounce (log)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
IF you are that worried, double seal and double bag it

I usually put two seals on with my foodsaver, but the bags (and vacuum) are perfectly OK.

If you are that concerned about botulism make sure the food is acid or ina a mildly acid sauce.

Why does Heston Blumenthal suggest to double bag the pork belly? Any ideas?

Because it's a pain in the ass to clean fat out of a circulator if the bags breaks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ARGH! I LOST MY VACUUM! I'm SVing some duck legs and this is my 1st time SVing something overnight. I used my Foodsaver Pro III and the foodsaver bags. It was SVing just fine after 5 hours. But when I woke up this morning, there was lots of air in the bag, as if it wasn't vacuum sealed at all. The bag was floating. I check the bag, and there are absolutely no punctures in the bag. All the fluid is still there. IS THIS A SIGN OF BOTULISM? I don't understand how any air would have gotten in there; it was submerged under water when I started.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What's the temp? You can test it by putting it in cold water. If it collapses it's probably ok as long as you have been at safe temps etc. Liquids can turn to gas at temp and expand the bag. Generally if you chill the bag the bag will collapse and tell you that the expansion is due to heat.


Edited by pounce (log)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It was at 65C. I cooled the bag down, but there was still a lot of air in there. I opened the bag and it smelled.... funny. Not real bad, but not real pleasant either. It smelled a bit sour. I thought it might be due to the raw green onions I put in there. Maybe the sulfur in the onions had no where to go. I ate it anyway though. :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

65 C for X number of hours should be perfectly safe. If I rember correctly from upthread, the magic number is 52 C. Above that tempt, no harmful bacteria will grow and over time, you will even achieve sterilisation. Don't take my word for it though, check the relevant posts upthread.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As far as circulation goes, I have been doing successful sous vide without a circulator and my water bath tends to measure the same temperature all over.

This can be attributed to a number of elements in the system, but overall, there is a convective effect in a non-agitated bath that will tend to equalize the temperature if the heat transfer with the environment is significant but not too variable.

Here's a shot of my rig finally mounted in a project box:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/salsaviz/2224...57603780796468/

I'd still like to rig up a circulator, if people could suggest more solid (read: metal?!) components than aquarium pumps; I'm a little nervous about temperature issues with a plastic pump...:o Or, should I not be?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'd still like to rig up a circulator, if people could suggest more solid (read: metal?!) components than aquarium pumps; I'm a little nervous about temperature issues with a plastic pump...:o  Or, should I not be?

Nice rig. You can use a cheap ($8) aquarium air pump to increase circulation. The pump won't be in the water -- only the 1/4 inch pvc tubing coming from it. I have used one with an airstone and was told by someone here that they got fine circulation with just the bare hose. With the heat coming from below the air should do a fine job of keeping the heat distributed once the setup has come up to temperature. Even with a brisket (my setup can only handle a smallish 4 lb one) there was uniform heat distribution when the pump was running.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I used a small submersible aquarium/indoor fountain pump to actually pump the water. Worked like a charm - until I started to test some higher temps. It didn't like 80C over 8 hours...

Try the air pump solution instead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I feel terrible for not taking photos but, I finally got some good results out of the sous vide machine..

I personally feel, the Sous Vide should not be used for the "better" cuts of meat.. Such as filets, or tenderloins.. I feel the crust just doesnt come out good.. And I am talking from my cooking or from dining at restaurants.. I think nothing beats a charcoal grill or bbq..

Took ribs, dry rubbed, added smokey bacon stock, cooked for 8 hours.. Ribs came out, put a sauce on and broiled.. The meat was fall off the bone tender.. Simply fantastic, some of the most tender ribs I have eaten..

Also did collards, kale, turnip greens, bacon, bacon stock, and apple cider vinegar.. Fantastic also.. However, the color was off, I should have added some lemon..

Ribs will be at the Super Bowl Party fo sho..


Edited by Daniel (log)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anyone know where the duck confit instructions are with in this thread? So many pages to go through..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Has anyone done duck confit? You basically just take the legs and cover in traditional rub for a day or so.. Then cover in duck fat and cook at 85 C? I have seen NathanM on the early threads say 80 at first then say 82.2 C

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I personally feel, the Sous Vide should not be used for the "better" cuts of meat.. Such as filets, or tenderloins..  I feel the crust just doesnt come out good.. And I am talking from my cooking or from dining at restaurants.. I think nothing beats a charcoal grill or bbq..

If you sear or broil the steaks after you take them out of the water bath, you can get a really nice crust on the meat.

Took ribs, dry rubbed, added smokey bacon stock, cooked for 8 hours.. Ribs came out, put a sauce on and broiled.. The meat was fall off the bone tender.. Simply fantastic, some of the most tender ribs I have eaten..

These ribs sound great. I tried doing SV ribs once but it didn't turn out like I'd hoped. This makes me want to try it again. What was temperature did you use?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I personally feel, the Sous Vide should not be used for the "better" cuts of meat.. Such as filets, or tenderloins..  I feel the crust just doesnt come out good.. And I am talking from my cooking or from dining at restaurants.. I think nothing beats a charcoal grill or bbq..

If you sear or broil the steaks after you take them out of the water bath, you can get a really nice crust on the meat.

Took ribs, dry rubbed, added smokey bacon stock, cooked for 8 hours.. Ribs came out, put a sauce on and broiled.. The meat was fall off the bone tender.. Simply fantastic, some of the most tender ribs I have eaten..

These ribs sound great. I tried doing SV ribs once but it didn't turn out like I'd hoped. This makes me want to try it again. What was temperature did you use?

The temp was 75 degrees.. I might kick it up a few more degrees.. But again, they were almost perfect..

I have had sous vide meat at some really nice places.. From Chicago, to NYC, and Atlanta, I have yet to prefer this method to traditional cooking..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I found this:

www.aibltd.com

They got some pretty cool gadgets, including water baths and circulators.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What's the temp? You can test it by putting it in cold water. If it collapses it's probably ok as long as you have been at safe temps etc. Liquids can turn to gas at temp and expand the bag. Generally if you chill the bag the bag will collapse and tell you that the expansion is due to heat.

Still think vacuum is not necessary, huh? ;-)

This is yet another good illustration why air needs to be removed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cooked lamb hearts for 24 hours at 75 degrees.. Added bacon stock with some salt, garlic,pepper, and a little brown sugar.. Came out really good.. They are warm now and I had a few slices.. Dont know what I am going to do at this point.. The sauce that was left in the bag is wonderful.. I am thinking salad for tonight with some frisee and a hot dressing from the sous vide juice... However, a sandwich might be pretty damn good too..


Edited by Daniel (log)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The hearts are still a little firm.. I am thinking a hotter temp might make it a little more juicy.. But thin slices are what I was after... Anyone have any heart stories?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Similar Content

    • By lindaj1
      Is there any recipe from the modernist universe or any other galaxy to make ketogenic (low carb) puff pastry and strudel type doughs?  Unusual ingredients OK.  There must be a way...
    • By haresfur
      I got to thinking after the disgusting job of separating globs of fat from sous vide short ribs and debating never doing them that way again. If the fat renders out in a braise, but not in the sous vide, what temperature would you need to turn the fat liquid to get rid of it? Is it below well-done or do you really have to cook the shit out of it? Is it just temperature or a time&temperature thing?
       
      Along those lines, what happens with marbled, tender cuts? where is the sweet spot between solid fat and something more palatable?
    • By Daily Gullet Staff
      By John Sconzo

      The Daily Gullet is proud to present this, the first in a multi-part, front-row report on the recent "Spain and the World Table" conference. Watch for subsequent installments in this topic.

      In his introduction of Ferran Adria, Thomas Keller -- perhaps the most celebrated American chef ever -- described four elements that go into making a great chef. The chef must be aware. Once aware of one’s culinary and other surroundings that chef can then be inspired, which leads to the ability to interpret those surroundings. But a great chef does not stop there. Instead, the great chef continues to evolve. Ferran Adria, perhaps more than any other chef who has ever lived, is the embodiment of those four elements.

      The moment that Ferran Adria strode towards Thomas Keller on the stage at the CIA/Greystone’s World of Flavors’ “Spain and the World Table” Conference was electric -- as if a giant Van de Graf generator had been turned on. The feeling didn’t subside when Adria took the stage from Keller; it only became more pronounced as the packed crowd rose to its feet, raining applause, admiration and love on the Spanish master. Adria accepted the response with aplomb, and gave it right back to the audience -- and to his fellow Spanish cocineros, who were standing off to the side. He brought each one up to join him on the stage for a rousing thank-you to the conference organizers, sponsors and participants. Once this emotional release subsided, Adria got down to what everyone had been waiting for -- his discussion and demonstration.

      Ferran Adria, with eyes sparkling like the finest cava, began speaking Spanish in a voice as gravelly as the beaches of the Costa Brava, while Conference Chairman Jose Andres translated. The crowd, hushed and straining for every word, moved forward in their seats as Adria explained El Bulli and himself, with a lesson in recent culinary history thrown in. Ferran explained that El Bulli is not a business. While offshoots of El Bulli are operated on a for-profit basis, the restaurant runs without profit as a primary motivation. For example, he said, the greatest difficulty they have is distributing reservations. Given the extraordinary demand and the severely limited supply, he explained that they could simply raise the price of a meal to the point where the supply and demand met. Indeed, the price of a meal at El Bulli is in itself quite reasonable given the stature of the restaurant and well within means of most motivated diners should they be able to get there, and this is how Adria prefers it. He stated that he was not interested in cooking solely for those with the most money. He prefers to work for people with a true interest in exploring the limits of cooking with him. To this end he showed a short film depicting “A Day in the Life . . .” of El Bulli set to the Beatles’ song of the same name. The film showed a couple’s response to the experience.

      Ferran’s voyage into creativity began with a visit to Jacques Maxima at Le Chanticleer Restaurant in Nice, France. He learned from Maxima that to be creative is not to copy. This idea changed his entire approach to cooking -- from making classic cuisine to making his own. Aware of elaborate books of French cuisine, Adria resolved to catalogue his work, the results of which are the richly detailed El Bulli books, published by period. These books, as wonderful as they are, are huge and extremely expensive. During his presentation, Adria announced -- and demonstrated -- that the individual dishes photographed and described in a chronology within each book are all now available online at elbulli.com.

      He finished the philosophical discussion by talking about the general style of haute cuisine that he and others are engaged in. While others have coined the term “molecular gastronomy” to highlight the scientific component of the creativity involved, Adria rejected it, saying that all cooking is molecular: most of his techniques are in fact rather simple and don’t employ radical new technology. Most of the technology that they do use has been around for some time; they have simply adapted it to their own purposes. Nevertheless, he applauds contributions to gastronomy from Harold McGee and other food scientists, and welcomes their collaboration in the kitchen. He has yet to find a term that describes the movement: as of now, he feels that there really is no good name for this style of cooking.

      More than any other single thing, Ferran Adria is known for the use of “foams” in cooking. While he is proud of his achievements with foams, he stressed that while appropriate in some circumstances, the real utility of foams is limited. He bemoans their ubiquity -- and wishes to not be blamed for others’ poor deployment of the concept. In the course of describing this and other techniques, Adria made a point of stating that using them should not be inferred as copying. Techniques and concepts are to be used and shared. He invited everyone to learn and harness whatever they found interesting, and to employ it in to their own pursuits.

      Another set of techniques discussed and demonstrated by the master and his assistant, Rafa Morales from Hacienda Benazuza, included three types of spherification. These included the use of calcium chloride (CaCl) and sodium alginate as well as the converse, and exploration of a new agent, gluconodeltalactone. The original combinations of alginate into CaCl for “caviar” production, and CaCl into alginate for larger “spheres” have chemistry-related limits as to what can be sphericized. In private correspondence, Harold McGee explained to me that Adria described encapsulating a mussel in its own juice. While this would make the dish technically an aspic, unlike conventional aspics it remains a liquid. Adria said that though gluconodeltalactone is very new, and they are just beginning to get a handle on it, he is very excited by it. He also demonstrated a machine for spherification on a larger scale than they had originally been able to do, as well as liquid nitrogen and freeze-drying (lyophilization) techniques. At the conclusion of his demonstration -- and thus the Conference -- the audience once again awarded him a standing ovation.

      While Adria’s appearance was the culmination of the conference, the energy it produced was not just because of his stature in the world of gastronomy -- it was also due to the excitement generated by the conference that preceded it. If there had previously been any doubt, Thomas Keller’s welcome of Adria was a clarion: Spanish cuisine has landed on North American shores and is finding a niche in the North American psyche. Spanish cuisine -- in its multifaceted, delicious entirety -- lives here, too.

      + + + + +

      John M. Sconzo, M.D., aka docsconz, is an anesthesiologist practicing in upstate New York. He grew up in Brooklyn in an Italian-American home, in which food was an important component of family life. It still is. His passions include good food, wine and travel. John's gastronomic interests in upstate northeastern New York involve finding top-notch local producers of ingredients and those who use them well. A dedicated amateur, John has no plans to ditch his current career for one in the food industry. Host, New York.
    • By docsconz
      About Jose Andres
       
      Throughout his career, Jose’s vision and imaginative creations have drawn the praise of the public, the press and his peers. José has received awards and recognition from Food Arts, Bon Appetit, Food & Wine, Saveur, the James Beard Foundation, Wine Spectator, and Wine Advocate. In addition, José has been featured in leading food magazines such as Gourmet as well as the New York Times, the Washington Post, Good Morning America, Fox Sunday Morning News with Chris Wallace, the Food Network, and USA Today.
       
      Widely acknowledged as the premiere Spanish chef cooking in America, José is a developer and Conference Chairman for the upcoming Worlds of Flavor Conference on Spain and the World Table at The Culinary Institute of America at Greystone, November 2 – 5, 2006.
       
      In 1993, Jose moved to Washington, DC, to head the kitchen at Jaleo. From there, Jose took on executive chef responsibilities at neighboring Café Atlantico and later Zaytinya. In July of 2003, Jose embarked on his most adventurous project to date with the opening of the minibar by jose andres at Cafe Atlantico. A six-seat restaurant within a restaurant, minibar by jose andres continues to attract international attention with its innovative tasting menu. In the fall of 2004, Jose opened a third Jaleo and Oyamel, an authentic Mexican small plates restaurant and launched the THINKfoodTANK, an institution devoted to the research and development of ideas about food, all with a view toward their practical applications in the kitchen.
       
      Every week, millions of Spaniards invite Jose into their home where he is the host and producer of “Vamos a cocinar”, a food program on Television Española (TVE), Spanish national television. The program airs in the United States and Latin America on TVE Internacional.
       
      Jose released his first cookbook this year, first published in English, Tapas: A Taste of Spain in America (published in the United States by Clarkson Potter) and shortly after in Spanish, Los fogones de José Andrés (published by Planeta). The book is an homage to Spanish cooking and to tapas, one of Spain's gifts to the world of good cooking.
       
      Jose Andres is passionate, intelligent, dedicated, witty and a fan of FC Barcelona.
       
      Jose has been a member of the eGullet Society since 2004.
       
      More on Jose Andres in the eG Forums:
      Cooking with "Tapas" by Jose Andres
      Vamos a Cocinar - cooking show with Jose Andres
      Jaleo
      José Andrés' Minibar
      Zaytinya
      Oyamel Cocina Mexicana, Crystal City
      Cafe Atlantico
       
      Jose Andres recipes from Tapas in RecipeGullet:
      Potatoes Rioja-Style with Chorizo (Patatas a la Riojana)
      Moorish-Style Chickpea and Spinach Stew
      Squid with Caramelized Onions
    • By gibbs
      With Modernist Cuisine I waited a couple of years and ended up with a copy from the 6th printing run the advantage of this was that all errors picked up in the erratta had been corrected in the print copy.  I am looking to get modernist bread soon and wondered if someone had purchased it recently to check or if someone knew of hand if they have printed any additional corrected runs 
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×