Jump to content
  • Welcome to the eG Forums, a service of the eGullet Society for Culinary Arts & Letters. The Society is a 501(c)3 not-for-profit organization dedicated to the advancement of the culinary arts. These advertising-free forums are provided free of charge through donations from Society members. Anyone may read the forums, but to post you must create a free account.

Philip Le

Troubleshooting genoise.

Recommended Posts

I'm trying to make a spongecake and it is just awful. The cake is dense, eggy and crunchy. Is it supposed to be like this until I add the syrup? I don't think the addition of syrup would help all that much.

Anyway, here is the recipe.

225g AP Flour

6 Eggs

160g Caster Sugar

75g Butter, melted

Add sugar to eggs in a heatproof bowl and beat over simmering water until a ribbon consistency. Remove from heat and allow to cool for three minute. Add cool butter and sifted flour, using a large metal spoon to fold in until just combined. Split evenly into two 8" pans and bake at 350°F for fifteen to twenty minutes, checking doneness with a skewer. Cake is done when the center bounces back after slight pressure.

Now, I have tried replacing the AP flour with cake flour and a combination of cake flower and cornstarch and I still get an eggy, crunchy texture. I have tried adding warm butter directly to the batter as well as cooled melted butter. I have tried adding a little batter warm butter, then combining all of the batter together but butter still weeps out of the batter. Regardless of what I do, I am deflating the batter as soon as I add butter to the it. With the flour, I can fold in fairly quickly without deflating the batter but if I do that I am left with clumps of flour in the batter that I generally fish out. If I go slower, I can incorporate the flour more thoroughly but I find I lose quite a bit more air.

So, what am I doing wrong and where do I go from here? I thought this was going to be the easiest recipe out of the book because it has the fewest ingredients and steps but I have been through a dozen cakes and I still can't get it to look more like a cake and less like Vietnamese baked eggs?


Edited by Philip Le (log)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What I have found that works best for me is to shift the flour over the egg batter in 2-3 additions, and fold in with a whisk. I've noticed that the whisk doesn't deflate the eggs as much as a spatula, and it helps to break up the flour so it doesn't clump.

Then I remove about a cup or so of batter, and thoroughly mix that into the melted butter. Return this back into the main batter, and fold in gently. This will prevent the butter from sinking and forming that eggy, rubbery layer.

The recipe I use shifts together cornstarch and cake flour as well. I can dig that recipe out if you'd like.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When I take the eggs off the heat, I keep beating them until they are cold. I don't let them sit unbeaten. Also, I find the egginess of a génoise recedes slightly if you leave it for a day or two.


Edited by Marie-Ora (log)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What I have found that works best for me is to shift the flour over the egg batter in 2-3 additions, and fold in with a whisk. I've noticed that the whisk doesn't deflate the eggs as much as a spatula, and it helps to break up the flour so it doesn't clump.

Then I remove about a cup or so of batter, and thoroughly mix that into the melted butter. Return this back into the main batter, and fold in gently. This will prevent the butter from sinking and forming that eggy, rubbery layer.

The recipe I use shifts together cornstarch and cake flour as well. I can dig that recipe out if you'd like.

I have heard about folding it in with a whisk; I just don't have one. (Except for an attachment for a stick blender that I've been using in a pinch, but that seems rather awkward in this situation.) I guess I should go out and buy one. By thoroughly mixing some batter into the butter, do you find that the batter deflates a lot as you mix? I tried that while the butter was warmish and I couldn't get the butter to incorporate well. If you could find the recipe that you use pretty easily, it'd be nice to compare, but if it's stashed away somewhere I can probably find more recipes online.

Also, I suspected that there might have been too much flour (and butter) but I didn't want to mess with the proportions in case removing the flour made the cake too eggy or removing the butter might make the cake too crunchy. I suppose I should find a different recipe.

Beating the eggs while cooling definitely seems like a good idea. I don't know why I didn't think of it. It would help the batter cool down faster as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I use 170g sugar, 140g AP flour, and 60g of fat to 5 eggs, so I agree that the flour looks a little too generous. I don't heat the eggs, just room temp. If the batter deflates quickly, the eggs may not be thick enough. Keep going! Here is my method: whip eggs and sugar until very thick in the kitchenaid with the whip attachment on high speed. Meanwhile, sift flour 3 times onto parchment and melt butter. When eggs are thick enough, turn the mixer to low and gradually add the flour then the melted butter (or I often use olive oil). Remove bowl from mixer and, using a spatula, scrape the sides and bottom of the bowl and fold in any unmixed ingredients. Pour into parchment lined pans and bake at 325F in convection oven until done.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@ pastrygirl. I love your recipe - I didn't think you could add the flour with the mixer going on low - I am definitely going to try it out. I particularly like the idea of substituting olive oil for butter. Another thing I must add is the size of the pans also makes a difference. If there is too much pan for too little batter, it will not raise as much as it should (assuming you want more of a cake than a product which can be layered).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@ pastrygirl. I love your recipe - I didn't think you could add the flour with the mixer going on low - I am definitely going to try it out.

Thanks! I find the 5 quart kitchenaid bowl such an awkward shape for trying to fold the flour in, and it seems like you need 3 hands for that anyway. I do it on speed 2 or 3 and use the parchment as a funnel to add the flour. You do want to watch and add it gradually, too much at once isn't good.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I keep it simple. 150 eggs, 100 flour, 100 sugar.

Crack eggs into bowl on scale. Add 2/3's the weight of the eggs in sugar. On a parchment, sift 2/3's of the weight of the eggs of flour. Mixing method is as others describe. I do like to warm up the eggs over a burner. I don't add fat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Alright, so I finally got the courage to try making another cake and this is the result. The outside is still crunchy. The inside, not so much.

I used six eggs, 50g butter, 100g cake flour and 50g corn starch. For the life of me I can not get the flour to fully incorporate. I sifted the flour and cornstarch together 3 times. I tried using my dinky little whisk but found that I was still deflating my batter rather quickly while trying to get the flour to incorporate into it well enough. Should I get a bigger whisk? Should I switch to all purpose flour? The recipe tells me to use all purpose and I think it may not stick together as much as cake flour. Cake flour seems to want to stick to itself even just being sifted into a bowl.

Oh, and I used warm butter. Should I perhaps be using room temperature melted butter?

Also, that's the entire recipe in one pan rather than in two pans, baked at 315° until a toothpick came out clean. The cake was originally domed when taken out of the oven but flattened to almost perfectly level after cooling. There is also no vanilla in this cake (I forgot!) so it tastes... off. Do you think a combination of almond extract and vanilla extract would be good or is pure vanilla the way to go? Do you think that's enough cake to split into two pans? The recipe is for two eight inch tins. The tin I am using is 8.25 inches at the bottom and flares up to 9.0 inches at the top. I buttered the sides halfway up and used buttered parchment to line the bottom. Should I lightly flour the sides? Should I butter up higher? Should I parchment the sides? The outside is crunchy and weird and I don't think I like the idea of cutting off the sides. The cake itself is pretty spongy (I'm guessing this is intentional) but there are like these little sorta hard lumps in it and I can't figure out what's causing that. Would a sugar syrup help with the texture?

All in all, this cake is a huge improvement over my previous attempts but it isn't anywhere near as nice as a grocery store's spongecake. Thanks for any suggestions that may come this way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Phillip, génoise is tricky to make. Take a look at this link from Real Baking with Rose for more trouble-shooting. I'm pretty sure those hard lumps are from the flour not incorporating properly into the mix. Have you tried pastrygirl or TinCook's recipes and techniques?. When you say 'dinky little whisk' what are we talking? I don't know what the others think, but I would say the biggest balloon whisk is the way to go. I don't think a sugar syrup would help - if you beat the sugar and eggs together long enough, the sugar should dissolve. Also I prefer vanilla by itself. And remember the grocery store is probably making their sponge from a packaged génoise/sponge mix with loads of chemicals and stabilizers.

A traditional Victoria Sandwich sponge is a lot easier - let me know if you want a recipe. But keep going with the génoise - don't let it beat you. I made them perfectly for years, then suddenly they went horribly wrong. You have to get back in the saddle. Keep us updated!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The crumb doesn't looks so bad. If the batter deflates too quickly when folding in flour, I think your eggs may not be whipped until thick enough. Those babies have to be THICK!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When you say 'dinky little whisk' what are we talking? I don't know what the others think, but I would say the biggest balloon whisk is the way to go.

It's the whisk that came as an attachment to my stick blender. Oh, I have the Kitchenaid stand mixer whisk attachment too. That's certainly large and balloon shaped. I will give that a try as well, once with cake flour and once with all-purpose, just to see which incorporates better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is the recipe I use for genoise - 275g eggs (about 4-5 large eggs), 150g fine sugar, 140g flour (sifted), 30g butter (melted and hot) and a pinch of salt.

Oven at 180C. 7-inch (3 inch height) round cake tin, lined and greased. Whisk eggs with sugar and salt till very thick (the batter falls into thick ribbons).Over 2 or 3 portions, sift flour over batter and fold in with whisk (I use the balloon whisk of my Kenwood stand mixer) - I whisk the batter gently but briskly at the top first where the flour lands, and then fold deep into the batter now and then. Remove a portion (about a third) to another bowl. Melt the butter and heat till bubbling, and beat the hot butter gently into this portion. It will deflate, but that's ok. Pour into the other batter and fold in. Turn into cake tin and bake till done.

This can also be baked into an 8-inch tin, and gives a finished product with good height. I can slice this cake into 3 layers. You can add vanilla extract if you like. I used both plain/all-purpose or cake flour, and the result is more or less the same.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you'll find the balloon whisk makes a huge difference, Phillip - I see LT also uses one. LT - I see your recipe can slice into three layers - the most I've ever been able to get from a génoise is two, so I must try it sometime. Also interesting that you use the butter hot. I think we learn more from each other than from a dozen recipe books. I can't stop thinking about pastrygirl's ingenious substitution of olive oil for the butter.

*I see a lot of génoise in my immediate future* :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, given my egullet name, I guess I'd better throw in my 2 cents :)

Genoise is an advanced skill, so don't feel bad that you haven't mastered it yet. It is not a simple cake.

A few thoughts:

Cakes generally need precise forumulas, and genoise is no different than any other cake. Get a reliable cookbook from the library or bookstore and follow the directions to a T. I like The Cake Bible's genoise, and the author, RLB, is very good at giving all the details that contribute to success.

Genoise requires one to switch gears- first you whip the living daylights out of the eggs and sugar- at least five minutes on high in a powerful stand mixer, double that with a hand mixer. Then, you gently and delicately fold the flour into the mixture, being careful to fold just enough to prevent flour pellets but no more- even one or two extra passes with a whisk will result in lower volume.

If you'd like a beginner-friendly genoise, consider replacing one of the whites with a couple of yolks, which contribute stability. And omit the butter. Once you have mastered that version, consider adding back the butter, and then if you like you can finally move to a whole egg version. Be sure to syrup the cake and let it sit for a day, or it will not be flavorful and moist.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pierre Herme's recipe in Larousse is 4 eggs, 40g butter, 140g flour, 140g sugar. He doesn't say what pan, but I've found

this works for 8 inch rings or pans. Scaled 1.5, that is 6 eggs, 60g butter, 210g flour, 210g sugar. My quick thoughts

- agree with Marie-ora, who suggests beating until eggs are cool

- agree with lovesgenoise, who mentions beating the heck out of the eggs and his suggested times to beat.

It's hard to beat it too much. This may be one of your problems. The less it's "inflated" the less margin you have for deflation.

- splitting that recipe into two pans seems like not enough batter . You can always cut off the top or bottom.

PH's recipe recipe for 6 eggs (in Greenspan's "Desserts by PH") is for a single 9 inch pan with at least 2 inch sides.

- the batter definitely deflates when you put in the butter. Agree with suggestions above that you take some out (I take out 1C)

and mix it separately with the butter and then mix it back in.

- if you pour the flour through a strainer with medium holes into the dough, you can get rid of a lot of the lumps.

- you can butter/flour the sides, but you don't have to. You can just detach it with an offset spatula at the end.

- AP flour is fine.


Edited by ejw50 (log)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've a question for the genoise experts.

I get good lift and volume when I make a simple genoise, but when I do a chocolate version (with cocoa powder substituting for some of the flour), there is considerably less height. I noticed during the folding of the flour-cocoa mixture that the egg batter deflates a lot more than when I just fold in flour.

Is this your experience too? Or do you have some insight into this? Thanks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Similar Content

    • By Porthos
      @Smithy Your request gave me the imputes to finally word-process the recipe. My DW use Excel, which drives me to distraction.
       
       
      Mom's Apple Raisin Walnut Cranberry Pie
       
      4 baking apples, peeled, cored, and sliced
      1 cup golden raisins
      1 cup walnuts
      1 cup fresh cranberries
      1/4 cup flour
      1 cup sugar
      2 tablespoons margarine or butter
      2 pie crusts to fit a 9- or 10-inch pie pan
       
      Heat oven to 425F.
      In a large bowl, mix the first four ingredients.  In a small bowl, mix the flour and sugar together.  Sprinkle the flour/sugar mixture over the large bowl, mixing lightly with fingers.  Place first pie crust
      into pie pan, pricking with a fork.  Pour the fruit mixture into the pie shell.  Dot with the margarine or butter, then cover with second pie crust, crimping
      edges together and making sure top crust is vented.
       
      Bake at 425F for 15 minutes, then turn down oven to 350F for about 45 minutes.
       
      *** I use Braeburn apples ***
    • By Mullinix18
      I dont believe that any English translation of Carêmes works exist. An incomplete version was published in 1842 (I think) but even the that version seems lackluster for the few recipes it does cover. I think it's time the world looks to its past, but I don't speak great French and it's a huge task to undertake. I hopefully plan on publishing this work and anyone who helps me will get a very fair cut, and if we decide not to publish it, I'll put it out on the internet for free. I'm working in Google docs so we can collaborate. I'm first cataloging the index to cross reference the pre-existing incomplete English version to give us a reference of what yet needs to be done, and from there we will go down the list of recipies and Translate them one by one. Simple google translate goes only so far, as it is 1700s French culinary terms and phrases being used. I'd like to preserve as much of Carêmes beautiful and flowery language as possible. Who's with me? 
    • By fanny_the_fairy
      So I'm not sure whether you remember it or not but a few month ago I posted a new thread here because I was slightly scared with an upcoming internship.
       
      Now I am actually an intern at Pierre Hermé and I thought you'd like to have some update.
       
       
      Thanks for all the amazing feedback you guys provided!!!
       
       
      Love
       
       
      - fanny
       
       
      First week: Ispahan, Emotions, Sensations & baked treats
       
       
      Just one week after I arrived from New Zealand I'm already off to Paris for the long awaited internship at Pierre Hermé.
       
       
      After waking up at 4.30, I head towards the 15° arrondissement shop, enter the apparently empty shop sur la pointe des pieds. Where is everyone? Luckily I quickly stumble onto Sebastien, the morning team head chef, who gives me the locker keys. I can finally go downstairs and get changed.
       
       
      Hmmmmm the pâtissier outfit! While I was over-excited when I bought it because it represented the first step towards my dream, this outfit is anything but dreamy. Think oversized jacket, high-waist pied-de-poule pants and Pierre Hermé baseball cap; the most fashionable item being the shoes – white sabots.
       
       
      Honestly, who could look good wearing that? Well ok, some girls do but I don’t. And just in case I still had some hopes, one of the guys said 'oh mais fanny vous etes beaucoup plus belle comme ca, vraiment' [fanny you look way better with these clothes on] when he saw me leaving the building wearing my normal everyday clothes. He looked shocked, trust me!
       
       
      Once this first step is checked and I've understood how pointless it is to look at myself in the mirror, I can actually go upstairs and meet the chefs. Before that, I have to put an apron – well two actually: a cotton one and a plastic one; but this is only an anticipatory action as I know I tend to get quite dirty (and this is a total euphemism) when I cook.
       
       
      Then I arrive in the laboratoire, wash my hands and shake everyone's hands. At this point, I am completely lost. Who is who? Hmmm names, so many different names. Luckily, I'm quite good with names so after a few minutes I am familiar with everyone just like we've known each others for years. That's totally not true though, and the use of vous is here to remind it.
       
       
      Indeed saying vous instead of tu is like the first basic rule in the pastry shop survival guide.
       
       
      The second one being to say chaud [litteraly: hot] whenever you're carrying something (usually really heavy) and not necessarily hot, as the term suggests, and you don't want anyone to get in the way. Basically, chefs say chaud not to be gross and say 'dégage' although the meanings of both words are really close. Once this rule is mastered, you have to start applying it. And believe me it feels quite weird to yell chaud every other minute. Though, it appears to be quite useful because you don't want to spill 118°C sugar syrup on your boss, do you? Well some of you might - sometimes, but please before doing so you should strongly consider a career change and/or an escape from your country, a face makeover and a name change.
       
       
      By now it's just after 6am and I am awake (holly jetlag). Like not just awake – I am widely concentrated on everyone's moves and there are many many moves. In the morning team, everyone is here to produce all the cakes, entremets, emotions, yeasty treats... with the most dedicated passion.
       
       
      The variety of tasks makes for the most interesting job. While every member of the team is responsible of a specific area, I wander from poste to poste to help the chef do the tasks they can't do because of their super-extra-busy schedules.
       
       
      Thus in one week I got to do many different things: from sorting almonds to prepare candied lemon peels.
       
       
      I started by weighing the ingredients for the crème onctueuse au chocolat. This was straightforward and was the perfect task to give me confidence on the first day.
       
       
      However, I was quite – and happily – surprised when the manager told me to go with Simon to decorate the Ispahan entremets.
       
       
      The Ispahan entremets are definitely one of the it-pastries at Pierre Hermé, so I was really excited to know that I was about to decorate them.
       
       
      This part was overwhelming – first I had to arrange raspberries on the rose-flavoured buttercream, fill with chopped and fragrant litchis, and then decorate the top macaron by piping a drop of glucose on rose petals and then sticking them, along with some raspberries, on the macaron.
       
       
      Assembling the Emotions was also a great job. Emotions are Pierre Hermé's signature desserts presented in glasses and eaten with a spoon - well unless you like to lick your fingers!
       
       
      I had the chance to make both Emotions Mosaic (griotte jelly, pistachio jelly, pistachio mascarpone cream) and Celeste (rhubarb compote, fresh strawberries, passion fruit and mascarpone mousse, passion fruit marshmallows).
       
       

       
       
      These are entertaining to make (basically I piped a fixed quantity of jelly with a piston into glasses - see Sensations below for more details) and are really yummy. I must say I have a weak spot for the passion fruit guimauves, even though it was a really-teeny (don't want to sound like I'm complaining because I am not) pain when I had to separate hundreds of them and roll them in icing sugar.
       
       
      As you might imagine I was happy to get to make so many different things and I was really proud when they actually let me make a whole batch of Sensation Celeste. Sensations are glasses filled with different jellies and generally topped with a macaron.
       
       
      First, I had to make the rhubarb compote: gelatine, rhubarb purée, lemon juice and sugar, pour a fixed quantity of it into small glasses with a piston, and allow to set before doing the same with both strawberry and passion fruit jellies.
       
       
      On the same note, I also piped some banana and strawberry jelly into small round shapes for the entremet Désiré, which is totally delicious by the say.
       
       

       
       
      However, I couldn't do just what I had to and couldn't restrain myself from peeking here and there. Anna, who I didn't really get to work with, is responsible for all the treats that have to go through the oven step. Hence, she makes all the brioches, croissants and other yeasty treats. But she also makes the cannelés and millefeuilles.
       
       
      The cannelés are probably the best ones I've ever had: fresh, soft and fragrant.
       
       

       
       
      As for the millefeuille I picked a Mosaic millefeuille because I love the pistachio-cherry combination. This was a real winner: the slight tanginess of the griottes nicely balances the creaminess of the pistachio cream. I can't wait to work in the dough team because their feuilletage is excellent! Hopefully in two weeks...
       
       

       
       
      Next week: c'est la folie des macarons [it's all about macarons].
       
    • By pastrygirl
      Something I wonder about but have yet to attempt ...
       
      i usually make Swiss or Italian meringue buttercream with egg whites. Occasionally I make egg yolk buttercream if I have excess yolks. 
       
      Is there any reason why one couldn’t make whole egg buttercream?  Whole eggs whip up plenty fluffy for genoise, what if you added hot syrup and cool butter? 🤔
    • By ChrisZ
      Hoping for some help.  I accidentally melted an old mould that is very important to us and I've had no luck searching around for a replacement.  
      If anyone knows where I could buy one - or even has one to spare they would be willing to sell - please send me a message.
      The mould (label attached below) was originally labelled as "Easy as ABC gelatin mould", although we just call it the alphabet mould.  Yes there are lots of alphabet moulds around, including new silicone ones, but we need the specific designs on this one to replace the one I damaged.  Depending on the cost, I would consider paying for postage internationally (to Australia).
      Thanks in advance!

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×