Sodium quackery

[BadRabbit]

There's an article by Harold McGee summarizing a scientific experiment which claims there are detectable, albeit minor differences.

McGee has a nice dig or two at Bittman in that article. I like that.

You mean Bitterman. He's the worse thing that ever happened to Mark Bittman.

[gfweb]

Oh. That's different.

Never mind.

[OliverB]

I have a whole bunch of salts, but use them as "finishing salts", i.e. sprinkling them over a finished dish or putting them on the table in a little bowl. For cooking I use Kosher salt only, bought in the big red box.

The difference is little and subtle (smoked and other flavored salts aside) but it's fun to sprinkle black salt on sliced steak or pink salt scattered around the plate etc. The color plays as much a role as the saltiness.

That aside, it's fun to have "millions of year old" salt from a cave, even if all other salt is quite likely just as old.

I'd never spend $40 on 500 gr, but I'd also never buy those salts in such large quality, I buy them in small boxes. Which may just cost way more than $40 for 500 gr. But I use them in such small quantities, it doesn't matter.

I ate at the French Laundry once, and for the foies gras they brought out a tray with 4 different salts, and I'd swear there was a difference. Texture for one, but also flavor. Of course, some (but not all) of this is probably psychological, but it's still fun :-)

I'd never use these salts to salt pasta water (though I've seen people do so) or even salt during cooking, I only use them for finishing on the plate or serving dish.

Maybe a bit silly, but many things in cooking are - if you really think about them. Foams, micro greens, etc. But where would the fun be, if you couldn't be a bit silly at the same time :-D

[andiesenji]

I have a fairly extensive collection of salts. With some I don't notice a lot of difference but with others there is a distinct difference because of the other minerals the "natural" salt contains.

These include the Fleur de Sel de Camargue, Velved de Guerande, French grey sea salt, Ile de Ré, Cyprus black sea salt flakes, the "Real salt" from Utah, the Peruvian pink salt and the Murray River pink salt flakes.

The list of salts I have is here.

Granted, I am sort of a "nut" when it comes to salt (and pepper) and while I haven't done a "blind" test with the salts dissolved in water, I have tasted various salts sprinkled on unsalted butter on plain bread and have been able to guess 8 out of 10. Not perfect, but I think I did pretty well.

At age 73 my taste is not quite as sensitive as it once was but I do fairly well.

[OliverB]

I might add that the "diluted in water" test is pretty silly, nobody would test different peppers, turmerics, dried basils, curries, or what ever else you have in the pantry that way. It seems to be more a thing that somebody that simply believes that "salt is salt is salt" came up with to prove their point. Of course the subtle differences will be lost if you dilute it with lots of water....

I'm sure a $100 bottle of Chardonnay diluted with a liter of water will taste pretty similar to a $4 bottle of Chardonnay....

that test proves or disproves nothing actually, as "diluting in lots of water" is not the purpose of those salts.

Kind of like testing different cars by not going faster than 25mph. I doubt you'd see much of a difference between some old rusty Ford and a new Mercedes :-D

[nickrey]

I don't have access to the original article but this is the one that McGee quoted that showed differences between salt taste in salt dissolved in liquids. Drake, S. & Drake, M. (2011). Comparison of salty taste and time intensity of sea and land salts from around the world. Journal of sensory Studies, 26, 1, 25-34.

This is the only published and peer reviewed study that I've seen referenced. Seems the old "salt is salt" quote may be as much of an old wive's tale as sealing steak to keep in the juices.

Edited to add: I use Sicilian Sea Salt because it tastes more like the ocean to me. This seems to be what the authors are saying in the article: some salts are saltier than others.

Edited April 27, 2012 by nickrey (log)

[Keith_W]

If we wanted to take texture out of the equation when comparing salts in a taste test, perhaps a better way would be to blitz all of them into a fine powder in a spice grinder.

[Shalmanese]

I don't have access to the original article but this is the one that McGee quoted that showed differences between salt taste in salt dissolved in liquids. Drake, S. & Drake, M. (2011). Comparison of salty taste and time intensity of sea and land salts from around the world. Journal of sensory Studies, 26, 1, 25-34.

This is the only published and peer reviewed study that I've seen referenced. Seems the old "salt is salt" quote may be as much of an old wive's tale as sealing steak to keep in the juices.

Edited to add: I use Sicilian Sea Salt because it tastes more like the ocean to me. This seems to be what the authors are saying in the article: some salts are saltier than others.

It should be noted that they tested at an 8% salt concentration and tested black, green, grey & pink salts as well, many of which are acknowledged to have drastically different flavors. It's an open question whether these same differences are distinguishable at a more typical 1 - 2% level and especially with other competing flavors and most less scientific tests seem to bear out that the answer is probably no.

In any case, it's an easy enough experiment for anyone to do at home and everybody's palate is different so why not try and find out for yourself?

[Jenni]

Surely we can say one thing - iodised table salt DOES taste different from rock and sea salt. For me, even the smell of the iodised stuff is off-putting. Other than that, I am not sure if I would be able to taste fine differences between lots of different kinds of salt, mostly because I have not yet tried many. Certainly sendha namak, which is the natural rock salt sold in India that people use on fasting days (and that I use 100% of the time because I cannot get sea salt in this town - though I do have a small stash my Mum brought over - and as mentioned I hate the iodised stuff) tastes less salty to me than sea salt does.

[BadRabbit]

If we wanted to take texture out of the equation when comparing salts in a taste test, perhaps a better way would be to blitz all of them into a fine powder in a spice grinder.

That would be a good test too but I don't think the salt in solution is as worthless a test as other have claimed. 95% of cooking applications are going to dissolve the salt. If you can't tell the difference in a pure glass of water, you certainly won't be able to tell the difference in a braise or even in a chicken breast that has been salted well ahead of time.

The exceptions would probably be very strong smelling salts like the aforementioned black salt or smoked salts as our sense of smell is so strongly tied to taste.

As for anecdotes of cooks being able to tell the difference in seasoned dishes, that sounds to me like a case of biases and egos. If one guy says he can tell the difference (and this could easily be caused by bias), there is no way the other guys on the line are going to say they don't perceive a difference. I've run kitchens and I've seen guys claim they can tell the difference in egg that has an expiration less than a week different from another. I'm not sure one guy's opinion is any more helpful in that situation than 10.

Edited April 27, 2012 by BadRabbit (log)

[BadRabbit]

Surely we can say one thing - iodised table salt DOES taste different from rock and sea salt. For me, even the smell of the iodised stuff is off-putting.

I'm certainly don't agree with that. I just picked up a salt shaker full of iodized and I can't smell anything much less something that is offputting.

Table salt contains 40 to 60 ppm of iodine and the rest is almost pure NaCl. There is no way that the tiny bit of iodine is perceptible in taste or smell.

Edited to add: I vitually never use iodized salt except for baking but it's because I learned to salt using my hand and kosher salt and I have no feel for iodized. I am certainly not convinced that there is a difference in flavor.

Edited April 27, 2012 by BadRabbit (log)

[gfweb]

I agree that iodized salt doesn't smell different to me. But 60 ppm is enough to smell though. Chlorine is a swimming pool is around 3 ppm and often smellable. Bromine, another halide, in that range is odorless.

[BadRabbit]

I agree that iodized salt doesn't smell different to me. But 60 ppm is enough to smell though. Chlorine is a swimming pool is around 3 ppm and often smellable. Bromine, another halide, in that range is odorless.

The iodine in salt is nowhere near as volatile as chlorine. It's intentionally in a form that isn't very volatile. They are not comparable based strictly on concentration as you point out with bromine. I was saying that iodine in its form in salt is not perceptible at the concentrations listed.

Even if they were equivalently volatile and perceptible to the human sense of smell, the comparison doesn't work since those ppm measurements are in different mediums (water vs NaCl) and once salt is added to liquid it would be in much smaller concentrations than 3ppm unless you are making a sauce with > 5% salt (yuk).

To further separate those things, you are not actually smelling the chlorine at that concentration. That is the concentration in water. You are smelling at the concentration of chlorine to air where the chlorine have been volatalized and is sitting in a somewhat dense cloud on top of the water.

Edited for clarity

Edited April 27, 2012 by BadRabbit (log)

[Keith_W]

That would be a good test too but I don't think the salt in solution is as worthless a test as other have claimed. 95% of cooking applications are going to dissolve the salt. If you can't tell the difference in a pure glass of water, you certainly won't be able to tell the difference in a braise or even in a chicken breast that has been salted well ahead of time.

Actually I do have some sympathy with that point of view. Very few of us would use our boutique salts in any situation that calls for the salt to be dissolved. My "nice" salts are only used to finish a dish. If I want to season, I use cheap salt. Furthermore, some of the "contaminants" in boutique salts might be volatile - such as truffle salt or smoked salt. Dissolve it into water at 15C and you probably won't taste the truffle. But "activate" the salt by throwing it on some hot food and the truffle aroma will be released.

[BadRabbit]

That would be a good test too but I don't think the salt in solution is as worthless a test as other have claimed. 95% of cooking applications are going to dissolve the salt. If you can't tell the difference in a pure glass of water, you certainly won't be able to tell the difference in a braise or even in a chicken breast that has been salted well ahead of time.

Actually I do have some sympathy with that point of view. Very few of us would use our boutique salts in any situation that calls for the salt to be dissolved. My "nice" salts are only used to finish a dish. If I want to season, I use cheap salt. Furthermore, some of the "contaminants" in boutique salts might be volatile - such as truffle salt or smoked salt. Dissolve it into water at 15C and you probably won't taste the truffle. But "activate" the salt by throwing it on some hot food and the truffle aroma will be released.

I certainly believe that finishing salts can make a difference in the experience of food even it it's just from texture and the rate it dissolves in your mouth. It's also not inconceivable to me that you could perceive some of the minerals in these salts when used in that type of application.

I just think that anyone who uses Pink Himalayan to salt their chicken stock is fooling themselves and is essentially throwing money away.

[Jenni]

I suppose it could easily be me and not the salt!

Just to provide all the information, in the UK we always bought crystal form sea salt or rock salt. Nothing posh, but always nice natural crystals, not iodised and finely ground table salt mixed with substances to keep it free-flowing.

But here in India the most common salt in the shop is something like Tata iodised salt. For a while I bought that, until I realised how stupid I had been and started buying sendha namak (as I mentioned above it is pure rock salt used on fasting days). The first time I opened a bag of the Tata salt, I thought something was wrong. It smelt...metal-y. But in food it was fine, unless I sprinkled some on top and forgot to mix, and then I got a little bit of a very subtle tang when I tasted it, that seemed different to me.

More than one packet (from different shops and at different times) all had that strange metal-y smell so I stopped worrying that there was something wrong with it and assumed it was just how iodised salt is. Clearly I am wrong! Anyway, I'm happy with the salt I have now, and sorry if I am incorrect that there is actually a different smell - its just seems that way to me!

[OliverB]

human noses work on different levels :-)

There are people that supposedly can taste a glass of wine and tell you what it is, where it was grown, what year it is, and so on.

I could try to do that for a hundred years with no avail. And I'd think that most of that detective work is done with the nose, since the tongue isn't really all that sophisticated in tasting these fine nuances.

[nickrey]

To put some context into this argument on taste and smell, the threshold for taste can be as small as a teaspoon of sugar dissolved in two gallons (7.57 liters) of water and our smell threshold can be as low as a single drop of perfume dispersed in a volume equal to that of a small house.

Where we tend to differ is in our confidence in stating that we detect a difference. Professional tasters, such as those used in the article referred to above, are selected for their ability to detect fine differences and trained to be confident in stating whether there is a difference. In signal detection terms, it is where the person places their beta level. Scientific studies know and take all this into account. People in their kitchens, perhaps less so. It doesn't make the actual differences any less real at a sensory level.

Edited April 28, 2012 by nickrey (log)

[qrn]

I use Morton canning and pickling salt,it it very fine and has nothing added to it, itsjust salt,nothing else...

Bud