Capturing the essence of another cuisine

[Franci]

I already feel a little arrogant saying that I have a good knowledge of my own food: Italian.

Now, I'd like to have a better understanding of my husband cuisine: chinese. It doesn't help he favors mediterranean food over chinese but I guess as our children are learning to speak chinese, they shouldn't be ignorant in chinese food either.

I think Italians and Chinese have many things in common and I can see similarities also in food. When my parents in law visit I try to cook foods they also would like: tiny ravioli in capon stock, oxtail/coda alla vaccinara (they are shangainese so they have something similar), tomatoes and eggs, risottos, etc.

To cook chinese I need books. To cook Italian I don't need a recipe...I see non-italian people on the web or in the print/tv and cooking italian food, coming out maybe with good stuff, inventive, interesting but in my mind I know an Italian would never use that spice, that condiment or pairing with another ingredient. I know what is appropriate or not in a meal as variety of dishes and so on.

But for chinese...books are good place to start. But it takes much more than that. I see, for italian food, what Marcella Hazan has done in the US but it requires much more to say that one understands another cuisine. Internet is a very good place but also very dispersive, with a lot of people just posting recipes and with superficial knowledge.

There are people here with good knowledge of other cuisines. Do you have a way of approaching it, besides travelling and being a little obsessed about it ?

[CFT]

Read Fuchsia Dunlop's book: "Shark's Fin and Sichuan Pepper: A sweet-sour memoir of eating in China"

Best to sample the food culture for yourself in the native environment and form your own opinions.

[Will]

With Chinese food, having the right ingredients, and knowing some of the basic methods / techniques tends to be a big part of it... obviously, this is easier if you live in an area where the right types of produce and the right sauces, etc. are available. Eating good examples is also important, so that you know what you like, and what kind of flavors to look for. I would suggest starting small, and choosing one or two Chinese cuisines to focus on specifically. And, try to make one or two dishes often until you're comfortable with them. I used to be really intimidated to make Chinese food for my (now) wife when we were first dating, and even more so to cook for my in-laws, but now I'm more confident with it [i definitely do rely on recipes a lot, though].

I do agree that there are a lot of similarities between Italian and Chinese food... every area and every small town having its own specialty, very strict ideas about how certain things should (or shouldn't) be combined, a general cultural interest in food and eating, and so on. In my limited experience, Chinese people also seem to like eating Italian food more than a lot of other Western food, so perhaps your in-laws are just as happy to eat your home cooking.

Does your husband cook Chinese food at home? Do your in-laws cook when they visit? Since they probably don't cook from recipes either, learning from them might be a good way to learn how to cook some things. And, just having the right tools and ingredients around may inspire them to cook more. Using recipes will probably also help you get used to the ingredients and techniques, and will help you learn to balance a sauce correctly. Seconding Fuchsia Dunlop's books, both her memoir and her cookbooks (her upcoming one will probably be ideal, since it's a bit more general in focus than her first two). I think she does present some good general information about how to appreciate the food, different types of knife cuts, different sauces, etc.

Of course, tomato and eggs (which you mentioned above) is a perfect Chinese dish that doesn't really need a recipe. Same for some other homestyle recipes like potato strips. You need to know the method, but not really a recipe.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Will (log)

[Karri]

As from a 'basics' standpoint. As you delve in deeper you will notice that historically the people in Asia did not have as much to go on, so they dusted almost all bits of 'meat' with a type of flour (rice, tapioca, etc) to make them more palatable, and it has the additional effect of thickening the sauce one is preparing. The Maillard reaction is not so much in use in Chinese cuisine, at least the ones I have had the chance to try.

Secondly, as to the meagerness of the staple, the ratio of starch to meat is much higher. The best way to learn a cuisine is obviously a trip and complete immersion, you have the benefit that your in-laws are chinese, can you ask them to provide you with some recipes? And a list of ingredients that are needed?

But yes, to understand another cuisine is to understand your own basics, and make a comparison from there. How are things prepared, chopping has an enormous impact on the flavor profile of the final dish. Ask your husband how vegetables are prepared, is meat cut across, with, or slightly angular to the grain.

[liuzhou]

I've long thought about the connections between Italian and Chinese cuisine.

Here is a translation of an article I contributed to a Chinese food and wine magazine last year.

In Lombardy, Italy, in the town of Desenzano del Garda, on the banks of Lake Garda, Italy’s largest lake, it is a warm spring Sunday morning. The Gallo family are gathering together for lunch. Four generations will be present for the meal. A large table is set out in the garden and the noise of chopping, the banging of pans and the voice of Mama Gallo issuing instructions is emanating from the kitchen.

Eventually, all the family arrive and take their places around the table, which by now is covered with food. A short prayer of thanks is said and everyone begins to eat. This meal will last for hours. The excited talking and laughing dies down as the Gallo family start to eat, eagerly tasting every mouthful. Mama apologises for the plainness of the food and everyone assures her it is delicious, which it certainly is. After a while, people start to slow down, but continue to nibble and sip at their wine until, finally they begin to feel sleepy. All over Italy, many families are doing the same

Thousands of kilometres away, in a small town in central China, the Li family are gathering together for dinner. Four generations will be present for the meal. A large table is set out in the sitting room and the noise of chopping, the banging of pans and the voice of Mama Li issuing instructions is emanating from the kitchen.

Eventually all the family arrive and take their places around the table, which by now is covered with food. A short welcome is said and everyone begins to eat. The excited talking and laughing dies down as the Li family start to eat, eagerly tasting every mouthful. Mama apologises for the plainness of the food and everyone assures her it is delicious, which it certainly is. After a while, people start to slow down, but continue to nibble and sip at their wine until, finally they begin to feel sleepy. All over China, many families are doing the same

Yes, despite the distance between the two countries, the description of these meals is almost the same.More than any other European country, Italy holds food dear to its heart. They live to eat, not eat to live. Food and eating together is central to the culture. To not offer guests at least a snack or, better still, invite them to join the family meal is almost unthinkable – just as in China.

But the similarities do not end there. Let’s look at what they are eating.

On the Gallo family table are several dishes featuring pork such as a spicy pork stew called Lo Stufato Dell'Adriana, On the Li family table there may also be a spicy pork stew such as Chairman Mao’s favourite, Red-Braised Pork.

The Gallo family will be enjoying several types of sausages and hams. Italy’s Parma ham is enjoyed all over Europe and the Americas. Chinese sausages are also world famous and Xuanwei ham from China’s Yunnan Province is enjoyed all over China and beyond.

Both countries are known for using every part of the pig from the nose to the tail. Parts of the animal which are thrown away or used only to feed pets in some countries are loved by both Italians and the Chinese people.

The Gallo family are also enjoying fresh carp which, earlier this morning, was still swimming in Lake Garda, the beautiful lake they can see as they eat. The Li family are enjoying fresh carp from their nearby river. Mama Li bought it, still live, in the market earlier in the day. On both tables is a wide selection of beautiful, freshly picked and carefully cooked vegetables and a wide variety of mushrooms is used in both countries.

Of course on the Gallo family’s table, there will be pasta. And the Li family are also eating noodles. Who can imagine Italy without pasta – or China without noodles? Italians like to say that noodles were introduced to China by Marco Polo, while the Chinese people like to say that Marco Polo took them from China to Italy! Actually, neither story is true. There are certainly records of noodles being eaten in China long before Polo was even born. The truth is noodles probably evolved separately in each place.

A plate of ravioli lies on the Gallo family table while a plate of jiaozi is on the Li family table. The shapes and flavours are a little different, but they are essentially the same thing. Tortellini look so much like wontons ) that they are known in Chinese as “Italian Wontons”. And like wontons, they are often served in soup.

Due to the pressures of modern life, the large, four hour long dinner which was once a daily event in Italy, is now usually confined to the weekends and holidays. Similarly, the Chinese large dinner is usually only held for special events and festivals.

But the busy worker in Rome and the busy worker in Beijing may eat a remarkably similar lunch. In Rome, a quick bowl of tasty pasta al pomodoro (pasta in tomato sauce); in Beijing a quick bowl of tasty zhajiang mian. Almost the same thing.

While China is the world’s top rice growing nation, Italy is top in Europe. Whereas in China rice is mainly grown in the south, in Italy it is the opposite. And while Chinese stir-fried rice is known the world over, Italy is also renowned for its classic rice dish, risotto.

Italian food and Chinese food are the top two international cuisines. There are Chinese restaurants in almost every country of the world; just as there are Italian restaurants.

Of course, not everything is similar. Ingredients and flavourings are sometimes very different. Italy relies heavily on dairy products such as cheese and cream in its cooking; something many Chinese people cannot accept. And, of course, there are many Chinese foods and tastes which would be unacceptable or unfamiliar to most Italians.

Also, the wines and other drinks accompanying the meal will probably be somewhat different. The Gallo family will be drinking a locally produced wine, possibly a very local Bardolino or a Valpolicella from nearby Verona. Papa Gallo and the older men may finish the meal with a drop of Grappa, the strong liquor made from the skins, stems and seeds used in winemaking.

The Li family will more probably celebrate with a rice or grain based wine, but red grape wines, both imported and domestically produced, are becoming more fashionable. And Papa Li would probably appreciate a small glass of that rappa while Papa Gallo toasts him back with a glass of aijiu!

Overall, the Gallo and Li families could change places and be familiar with much of the food they find and perhaps surprised to find that the two cultures aren’t as different as they imagined.

Buon appetito! 好吃!

[rotuts]

In the past one relied on books or personal instruction. Now day, both are combined in quality videos.

Consider Ken Hom, and Ching He Huang. the later has two excellent series on the BBC:

Ching's Kitchen (older) and Chinese Food made Easy, an excellent series. I cant say how you will find them but some rooting around might reveal the.

as for books, ive had a few, and many earlier ones were simply lists of permutations and combinations.

Consider this book: Breath of a Wok by Grace Young.

good luck!

and you wont get far without a decent Chinese Emporium.

Edited January 26, 2012 by rotuts (log)

[Franci]

Thanks everybody.

I have a modest collection of chinese books: Irene Kuo, Barbara Tropp, Grace Young, Eileen Yin-Fei Lo, Hsiang Ju Lin. I do need Fuchsia Dunlop and I've been wanting to buy her books for long time.

I didn't mention it but I lived on my own, without my husband (yes!), with my in laws for a year. And that was a good experience for me. I certanly learnt a lot at that time, although my mother in law food is limited to shanghainese food.

I've also been to China a couple times.

Techniques are not a big deal to me. Once you know the basic of cooking doesn't matter what cuisine you cook that's what I've learnt in cooking school. But do I really get it? I don't feel confident enough.

I do cook on regular basis things like: scallion pancakes, steamed breads, noodles soups, some dumplings, stews.

My parents in law live in NY now and we are basically in the South of France, with limited access to Chinese ingredients. And no...my husband doesn't cook any chinese food. My son's nanny is taiwanese and she often tries my food and tells me if something is off.

I'm just saying that is very difficult to get the essence of another cuisine without knowing the language and being totally immersed into it.

Nice article liuzhou. You know, I never met an italian family who would pray before meals? I'm wondering if a lot of people think that we say a grace. And a lot of Italians despise the use of cream, at least the food snobs. Well, many Americans would be surprised to hear that many Italians don't like garlic or onions which are use sparingly, in fact you can buy pesto with no garlic in supermarkets.

All this talking made me realize that I need to train better my sense of taste. Being able to understand and balance a sauce. If a can do it for an italian or a french sauce, why the use of different seasonings: a little bit of soy sauce, some rice wine and bit of salt and sugar seams so foreign and difficult to understand?

[nickrey]

Franci, it is interesting that you say you "know" Italian food when there are so many regional variations and so many different variants of what does and doesn't go into things. If I might venture an interpretation of what you are saying, it would be that you have an internalised template of what your regional and family version of Italian food is. This is based on knowledge, development of skills through observation and practice, and long-term application of the skills. You also have had feedback on what Italian food is from the time you started eating.

So if we apply that to learning a different cuisine to a higher level (think Fuchsia Dunlop for Szechuan cuisine, David Thompson for Thai food, Diana Kennedy for Mexican food), what you will need to do is acquire knowledge and skills and apply these frequently until they become automatic. There is a view in some quarters, popularised by Malcolm Gladwell, that to gain expertise in an area you need to have at least 10,000 hours of practice. The expertise literature would also suggest that you need more than basic ability as well as a structured evolution in complexity of what you are doing to achieve this, but the basic point is probably one that needs emphasising: You need heaps of practice and constructive feedback to learn.

People have different learning preferences: some like to read about concepts, think about them, and then apply them; others can only learn through doing; still others benefit from lectures, etc. My suggestion would be to work out how you best learn and then apply that to Chinese cooking. Do it all the time and immerse yourself in it. At some stage learning a foreign language if they are immersed in the culture, people start naturally to think in the language and require effort to move back into their native tongue. Think of your journey to cooking in these terms and you will know how to get there and what it will look like when you arrive.

Edited January 27, 2012 by nickrey (log)

[jrshaul]

An Italian learning to cook Chinese isn't much different from an American learning to cook Italian. Most of us try and use familiar ingredients to produce familiar results, and then label it as something else. I'm not brilliant with any asian food, but here's a few observations:

1. Cooking techniques really are genuinely different between Asian and American food - despite the "quick-n-easy" interpretations of many cookbook authors, there's really no direct comparison. The best example is high-temperature stir frying, which can be done in a wok at up to 1,000 degrees fahrenheit. Some of your cookware will actually start to delaminate at that temperature. It's hot enough to melt pewter.

I can't cook stir-fry particularly well, but I can guarantee that the less you substitute, the better. If the recipe calls for lard and a wok, it won't work with olive oil in a saucepan. Ground meat, in particular, is often processed to a fine paste, and substituting western-style ground beef or pork won't work properly.

2. Getting flavorings entirely correct is borderline impossible, but the general combinations can be mimicked. The best explanation I've heard is that Chinese food frequently features contrast in flavors, while western food features complimentary flavors. Sweet glazes on meat are a good example.

Once again, substitution is to be avoided whenever possible. Szechuan food, for example, uses the szechuan peppercorn, and nothing else tastes quite like it. However, if you can get some and the end result is explosively spicy, you're likely on the right track. Sometimes, little things can make a big difference - I probably couldn't identify sushi rice from jasmine rice if you showed them to me dry, but you certainly can't substitute the two.

3. No one ever cooks as well as their mother-in-law. Even if their mother-in-law is a Bisquick fanatic. This is a universal rule of human psychology.

Edited January 29, 2012 by jrshaul (log)

[Prawncrackers]

Franci, i'd say that you were half way there in that you at least realise the essence of another cuisine is an elusive thing. A lot people will learn a couple dishes, recreate them proficiently and proclaim themselves an expert. (Look ma I can make a paella and a creme catalana, let's go on Masterchef TV and say I'm deeply influenced by Spanish cuisine!) In your case, you want that deep understanding of Chinese cuisine so that you can cook Chinese food for you family. I say just keep at it and it will come to you, be open to criticism and feedback. Sometimes it difficult for non-Chinese speaker to appreciate the different words we have for the textures in Chinese foods and by extension it can be hard to appreciate the different textures themselves. But maybe your husband can help in this respect?

Consider Ken Hom, and Ching He Huang. the later has two excellent series on the BBC:

Ching's Kitchen (older) and Chinese Food made Easy, an excellent series. I cant say how you will find them but some rooting around might reveal the.

I must protest vehemently about anyone associating "excellent" with Ching He Huang. With Chinese New Year just gone, she's been on UK cable stations with her pretty face and perky personality representing the whole of Chinese cuisine. I'm embarrassed that after so many decades of Ken Hom that's she been thrust forward as some sort of bastion of Chinese food. She's a giant step back from even Ken Hom's beginner level of cooking. It would be like having Rachael Ray represent all of American food on Chinese TV.

Edited January 29, 2012 by Prawncrackers (log)

[rotuts]

i agree Ching He Huang has turned the commercial corner.

Why not cash in, its in vogue now. however, if one has never SEEN chinese cooking, some of the shows she made about two years ago show it reasonably well for a beginner.

i do agree with you that Ken Hom is still the master.

then there's Yan Can Cook ....

[Franci]

People have different learning preferences: some like to read about concepts, think about them, and then apply them; others can only learn through doing; still others benefit from lectures, etc. My suggestion would be to work out how you best learn and then apply that to Chinese cooking. Do it all the time and immerse yourself in it. At some stage learning a foreign language if they are immersed in the culture, people start naturally to think in the language and require effort to move back into their native tongue. Think of your journey to cooking in these terms and you will know how to get there and what it will look like when you arrive.

Thanks, that sounds like my English at the moment. I mix English and Italian in my head whichever comes to mind first (I've been outside the Country for the last 12 years). I guess I need to spend more time reading now, since ingredients here are less available.

Franci, i'd say that you were half way there in that you at least realise the essence of another cuisine is an elusive thing.

...

Sometimes it difficult for non-Chinese speaker to appreciate the different words we have for the textures in Chinese foods and by extension it can be hard to appreciate the different textures themselves. But maybe your husband can help in this respect?

Thanks Prawncrakers. I read a bit on textures on Chinese Gastronomy. This could be a fun and interesting exercise. Useful not just for understanding better Chinese cuisine.

Maybe I could open a post on the Chinese forum to ask people whenever I'm trying something new

however, if one has never SEEN chinese cooking, some of the shows she made about two years ago show it reasonably well for a beginner.

Between trying to really understand another cuisine and NEVER seen it there is a lot in between