Food Policy

[StanSherman]

We had gotten way off topic in the price at the Farmers’ Market thread so I thought we’d start a separate discussion about food policy.

Let’s talk about policy and try not to get political. Let’s share information and ideas in a manner that we can all learn something. There has been much talk about the problems with out food system and what our future has in store for us. With a tractor manual in one hand and food manifesto of your choice in the other, let’s try and learn more.

[StanSherman]

Panaderia Canadiense:

“Food policy is what determines, by and large, our food prices and many of the attitudes towards growers/growing.”

I believe attitudes are made through personal interaction and/or marketing. Prices just generally piss people off.

EatNopales:

“industrialization needs cheap energy, cheap raw materials & subsidized infrastructure to make it economically feasible.”

I really disagree. It may change social structure but it’s inherent value is productivity. Other countries have cheap labor. Is that economically feasible?

“Less governed regions will become more the norm than the big government industrial welfare states of the 20th Century... in that environment farming will inevitably become less industrial more communal.”

Where is the “farm labor” going to come from? Our current economy doesn’t give the populace the chance for parents to spend time with their kids or have a day of Sabbath together. How are they supposed to now grow food and learn what to do with this stuff?

[Panaderia Canadiense]

Stan: OK, you've got a point for North America, but here in Ecuador food policy does directly affect the prices of staple goods. The government has fixed prices on milk, rice, potatoes, bananas, and a number of other crops to ensure that they don't rise or fall. 1L of milk is 75 cents and has been for about 5 years; it's unlikely to rise in the future.

There's also much less of a culture of growing your own anything here than there is NortAm - the attitude here, due to our progressive food policies as well as our enviroment, is that it's cheaper and easier to buy from the farmers at market than it is to grow your own tomatoes. I'm often viewed as odd for having removed the grass from my backyard to make space for my banana plants, tomatoes, lettuces and whatnots....

[StanSherman]

How far do most people have to travel to go to buy from a farmer? How far do they have to go to buy the fixed price goods?

Many people from the US on this forum live in cities, but we have to travel almost two hours to get to any city as big as Ambato. (or close to it)

Edited May 15, 2011 by StanSherman (log)

[Moopheus]

We had gotten way off topic in the price at the Farmers’ Market thread so I thought we’d start a separate discussion about food policy.

Let’s talk about policy and try not to get political.

It's kind of hard to do that since policy is intrinsically political. Subsidies for farmers are political. Environmental regulation is political. Import tariffs are political. School lunches are political. Land use issues are political. The use of immigrant, especially illegal immigrant labor in the US food system is a political hot potato. The health implications of the food system--obesity, other illnesses, and hunger--are political issues.

That said, I think it is reasonable to ask, what do you want food policy to do? Food policy, at some level, is always going to exist, as long as we have a political system.

It quickly becomes complicated because no one agrees, and there are always tradeoffs. We have built a system that can produce, for many people, an abundance of food at low price. One of the affects that system we see around us every day--increases in obesity, diabetes, heart disease, and so on. The costs of those illnesses are a drain on the public health system. Cheap food isn't necessarily cost effective.

You ask how far I have to go to buy from a farmer, and the answer is, it depends. Where I live, I can get to a farmers' market locally. There are farms I can go to that are maybe an hour away. These farms are probably pretty small by Iowan standards. The CSA farm I get a lot of my produce from is about an hour and a half away, but there's a local pickup (I have actually been out to the farm).

[Panaderia Canadiense]

Most people will travel up to the length of an Andean city (ie up to 100 km in Quito) to buy at farmer's markets - but the bus fare in urban centers is 25 cents regardless of if you're going 5 blocks or 500. Fixed price goods are available in all of the corner tiendas (little family-run stores), which in all cases are never further than 2-3 blocks from any given house (the one where I shop truly is the corner store; it's about 30 steps away on the corner). At the farmer's market, I routinely meet people who caught an interprovincial bus from 80 km up the road (which means they spent 75 cents on bus fare) to buy and sell at this particular market, because there are fixed-price goods available in permanent shops within the market area, in both small and bulk quantities and often a bit below the government-regulated price. I'll see if I can dredge up a photo of the market, because it's about 16 square blocks in size with permanent roofed areas and permanent shops and it buzzes with people on Mondays. Yes, here it is. This is one of 16 roofed areas, specifically the one that deals with local apples, peaches, pears, and stonefruits. Taken on a Monday.

Ecuador has the advantage of being quite a bit smaller than the US - we'd fit comfortably inside Texas with room left over. This means that even if you live far away from a major center like Ambato, you're always close to a small town (within 30 minutes), and small towns have tiendas and generally also farmer's markets at least one day a week. The other thing that differs greatly here from North America is the excellent, inexpensive, and widely available public bus system. Even if I lived way out in the sticks, I'd still be able to walk out to the main road and catch a bus to my closest town or city very easily, since they run every half hour.

Also, how big do you think Ambato is? By our standards, it's more of a small city, only 300,000 people within the metro boundaries. The only thing that makes it appear large is that it's spread along a pair of valley systems and doesn't extend much up the walls of its valleys. The true behemoths are Quito, Cuenca, and Guayaquil - cities of over 2 million with immense sprawls. What we've got that other large centers don't is central location and altitude (2,500 meters up in the central square, closer to 3,000 meters where I live).

This said, if I lived off in Valle Hermoso, my nearest town would likely be Pelileo, a burg of 20,000 with a bustling market and all services. It's not like in the US and Canada, where if you live in the sticks and go 2 hours to your nearest town, you're lucky if it has 3 stores. That's just not the culture here. Even the tiniest hamlets will have fresh markets, stores, phone booths (these are shops filled with phone booths), and all other services.

[Panaderia Canadiense]

We have built a system that can produce, for many people, an abundance of food at low price. One of the affects that system we see around us every day--increases in obesity, diabetes, heart disease, and so on. The costs of those illnesses are a drain on the public health system. Cheap food isn't necessarily cost effective.

I think the way you define "food" is also important here. I'd argue that the schmook sold by "fast food" chains doesn't qualify, and that there's a great difference nutritionally for the end consumer between paying $1 for a cheeseburger and $1 for a nice mess of greens at the market (those are my local prices).....

[StanSherman]

I've pondered the food system for many years. Personally, I don't think obesity is solely a food problem. Kids play with some electronic device almost constantly.

Food surely play a big part in it, but in US households there is rarely someone available to prepare wholesome healthy meals. You could drop a CSA box on their doorstep and most of it would rot.

It is a political subject. Better wording would be to try and keep the partisanship out. Actually with biofuels we've added energy policy into the debate.

[Jaymes]

We have built a system that can produce, for many people, an abundance of food at low price. One of the affects that system we see around us every day--increases in obesity, diabetes, heart disease, and so on. The costs of those illnesses are a drain on the public health system. Cheap food isn't necessarily cost effective.

Perhaps it's just me, and perhaps I'm wrong, but personally, I don't think that our system that produces "an abundance of food at low price" has anything whatsoever to do with our problems of "obesity, diabetes, heart disease and so on."

Just because we have a wide variety of affordable food from which to choose doesn't mean that we are somehow forced to choose stuff that's bad for us.

In fact, quite the opposite.

Healthy choices are there. They're everywhere. They're easily and readily available.

Even the smallest of grocery stores sell apples. And they also sell Twinkies. That a certain segment of the populace never chooses apples has more to do with education and individual accountability than it does the happy fact that there's a lot to choose from.

I'm sure each of us has, at one time or another, been in the grocery check-out line behind someone using food stamps. Our system insures that anyone that would like to buy that apple can.

But do they? That's the issue. Not the availability of both apples and Twinkies, but the choice.

[StanSherman]

Most people will travel up to the length of an Andean city (ie up to 100 km in Quito) to buy at farmer's markets - but the bus fare in urban centers is 25 cents regardless of if you're going 5 blocks or 500. Fixed price goods are available in all of the corner tiendas (little family-run stores), which in all cases are never further than 2-3 blocks from any given house (the one where I shop truly is the corner store; it's about 30 steps away on the corner).

How often do they visit the market? Does that person work a job also?

Are the producers of fixed priced goods large and well compensated?

[Moopheus]

I think the way you define "food" is also important here. I'd argue that the schmook sold by "fast food" chains doesn't qualify, and that there's a great difference nutritionally for the end consumer between paying $1 for a cheeseburger and $1 for a nice mess of greens at the market (those are my local prices).....

Unfortunately, the stuff sold by fast food chains does count. It may not be very good food, but people still buy it and eat it. The fast food chains use a fairly significant portion of the output of the food production system, and their desire to be able to produce and profitably sell a $1 cheeseburger pressures the whole production system. You can't ignore it.

Sure, people have a "choice" but it is in many cases a fairly limited choice. Food processors and fast food outlets spend enormous sums of money to promote their products, ensure their ubiquitous availability, and sell the message that the convenience and cheapness of it is better than any alternative. Against that there is what, the USDA food pyramid? It surprisingly difficult for that apple to compete against the $1 cheeseburger. It's not an even playing field.

And I'm not saying that food alone causes health problems--it is certainly true that we are more sedentary, at least in the US, than in the past. But it also appears to be the case that average caloric consumption is rising too. I myself would be much fatter than I am now if it weren't for my bicycle.

[Jaymes]

Food processors and fast food outlets spend enormous sums of money to promote their products, ensure their ubiquitous availability, and sell the message that the convenience and cheapness of it is better than any alternative. Against that there is what, the USDA food pyramid? It surprisingly difficult for that apple to compete against the $1 cheeseburger. It's not an even playing field.

Okay, I think I've got it now.

If I'm fat and continue to make food and lifestyle choices that keep me fat, it's not my fault. Thank goodness for that.

I just need someone else (in the form of the government) to pass (and enforce, of course) a bunch of laws that will protect me from myself.

O happy day.

______________________________

Edited May 15, 2011 by Jaymes (log)

[Darienne]

Unfortunately, the stuff sold by fast food chains does count. It may not be very good food, but people still buy it and eat it. The fast food chains use a fairly significant portion of the output of the food production system, and their desire to be able to produce and profitably sell a $1 cheeseburger pressures the whole production system. You can't ignore it.

Sure, people have a "choice" but it is in many cases a fairly limited choice. Food processors and fast food outlets spend enormous sums of money to promote their products, ensure their ubiquitous availability, and sell the message that the convenience and cheapness of it is better than any alternative. Against that there is what, the USDA food pyramid? It surprisingly difficult for that apple to compete against the $1 cheeseburger. It's not an even playing field.

The convenience angle is huge. We used to stay at the same motel in Moab every year and got to know the house staff fairly well. At lunch two of the housekeepers' young children were brought to lunch at the motel ramada by one young woman...probably a 'sitter' of some sort...with Taco Bell stuff or McDonald's or whatever. These women were undereducated, single Mothers, poor, overworked, underpaid, harried...you name it. Their children had a life which I would not have willingly given to mine. Lauding this motel, I'll add that it was one of the only ones in Moab which provided benefits.

We, on the other hand, could afford to travel, stay at a motel and we ate at the ramada also. Our lunch was a nutritious salad which I prepared from scratch with homemade dressing in the motel kitchenette. I had all of what they were missing. And I had not worked all the time my own children were growing up. I didn't have to. What a difference in our lives. How lucky we were and still are.

No wonder those Moms didn't know how to shop properly and relied on fast food joints to feed their kids.

BTW, I don't 'know' the USDA food pyramid, but I sure as heck don't think too much of the Canadian one. It has sold out to the food industry pressures.

[Panaderia Canadiense]

Most people will travel up to the length of an Andean city (ie up to 100 km in Quito) to buy at farmer's markets - but the bus fare in urban centers is 25 cents regardless of if you're going 5 blocks or 500. Fixed price goods are available in all of the corner tiendas (little family-run stores), which in all cases are never further than 2-3 blocks from any given house (the one where I shop truly is the corner store; it's about 30 steps away on the corner).

How often do they visit the market? Does that person work a job also?

Are the producers of fixed priced goods large and well compensated?

People visit the market once a week, on whichever day is market day. They're generally also employed at jobs, but employers here recognize the importance of market day and will normally give employees time off to do their shopping. The great bulk of people who shop at the market where I buy my food are women, some of whom will be domestic employees who are actually being paid to do the shopping for their employers along with their own weekly shop! In cities there is also a Municipal Market system with vendors in attendance all week; produce there is a bit more expensive (stall rental is passed on, and many of the stallholders are middlemen) but if you've run out of critical ingredients or get unexpected visitors, they're incredibly convenient places to shop.

The fixed-price goods producers are generally farm cooperatives - one board negotiates for dozens or even hundreds of small farmers. Because of the political system down here, the coops have considerable leverage with the government (it would take only a one-week coordinated strike by the growers cooperatives to oust the president) and such they're fairly well compensated. This is a food-policy win-win, actually. The farmers who produce fixed-price foods aren't subject to market volatility (which can be a real killer in Latin America) and it also ensures that even the poorest people in the country have access to affordable staples, which means that malnutrition is unheard of here.

[StanSherman]

I'm not a particularly religious person and I wish to keep religion from any more political influence, but there is a huge part of me that would rather see Mormons administer food stamps rather than the USDA.

The USDA employes more people than the totality of agriculture. If you point that out to a farmer they'll point out the food stamps. If you point it out to a poor person they will talk about millionaire farmers getting subsidies.

[Jaymes]

At lunch two of the housekeepers' young children were brought to lunch at the motel ramada by one young woman...probably a 'sitter' of some sort...with Taco Bell stuff or McDonald's or whatever. These women were undereducated, single Mothers, poor, overworked, underpaid, harried...you name it.

If part of the problem was, as you suggest and you're probably right, that the women were "undereducated," then it seems to me that the solution is to educate them. We do have a public school system in this country, so we have a vehicle to do that, if we collectively agree it needs doing.

And although I don't disagree with your overall premise, I'm someone that fed my children very nutritiously (they'd tell you to a fault), but even I might let them stop in at Taco Bell and pick up lunch if it were a special occasion such visiting Daddy at work. What you saw might not be indicative of the way they usually ate.

However, even if it is, I still say that the solution is education, and not to ban Taco Bell (which, by the way, since we're using it as an example, does actually have some very nutritious choices).

[Darienne]

If part of the problem was, as you suggest and you're probably right, that the women were "undereducated," then it seems to me that the solution is to educate them. We do have a public school system in this country, so we have a vehicle to do that, if we collectively agree it needs doing.

And although I don't disagree with your overall premise, I'm someone that fed my children very nutritiously (they'd tell you to a fault), but even I might let them stop in at Taco Bell and pick up lunch if it were a special occasion such visiting Daddy at work. What you saw might not be indicative of the way they usually ate.

However, even if it is, I still say that the solution is education, and not to ban Taco Bell (which, by the way, since we're using it as an example, does actually have some very nutritious choices).

Hi Jaymes, How I wish you were correct about the possibility that the fast food thing was a treat. Nope, we were there a few years in a row and this was not summer but October/November.

And I am not in the least suggesting banning Taco Bell. We have eaten more than our share of "Fiesta Salads" while on the road. Try to pick up stuff at grocery stores...but sometimes the spirit is simply too tired. It's a four day drive and that's a lot more than 4 times a one day drive as you may imagine. Subway is our latest go to for lunch.

We have a public school system in Canada too but what healthful stuff did you ever learn in school? What they taught was government mandated...Canada's Food Rules here. I'd no more live by them than eat at Taco Bell everyday. Plus school teaching is not too conducive to real education a lot of the time. Let the school system try to teach you something and it's like a death sentence to learning for many teenagers.

These Moms (and there's plenty of them who are not systemically "undereducated") are often chronically exhausted and at the bottom of the financial (and power) heap. I have no solutions...and this is not my place to do so, had I any. When we walk the dogs at night, even late, and see all the kids still up and the little girls wearing plastic wedge shoes, etc...my heart aches. (But then I am old and everyone knows the elderly get crabby. , yadda, yadda)

[Jaymes]

If part of the problem was, as you suggest and you're probably right, that the women were "undereducated," then it seems to me that the solution is to educate them. We do have a public school system in this country, so we have a vehicle to do that, if we collectively agree it needs doing.

And although I don't disagree with your overall premise, I'm someone that fed my children very nutritiously (they'd tell you to a fault), but even I might let them stop in at Taco Bell and pick up lunch if it were a special occasion such visiting Daddy at work. What you saw might not be indicative of the way they usually ate.

However, even if it is, I still say that the solution is education, and not to ban Taco Bell (which, by the way, since we're using it as an example, does actually have some very nutritious choices).

Hi Jaymes, How I wish you were correct about the possibility that the fast food thing was a treat. Nope, we were there a few years in a row and this was not summer but October/November.

And I am not in the least suggesting banning Taco Bell. We have eaten more than our share of "Fiesta Salads" while on the road. Try to pick up stuff at grocery stores...but sometimes the spirit is simply too tired. It's a four day drive and that's a lot more than 4 times a one day drive as you may imagine. Subway is our latest go to for lunch.

We have a public school system in Canada too but what healthful stuff did you ever learn in school? What they taught was government mandated...Canada's Food Rules here. I'd no more live by them than eat at Taco Bell everyday. Plus school teaching is not too conducive to real education a lot of the time. Let the school system try to teach you something and it's like a death sentence to learning for many teenagers.

These Moms (and there's plenty of them who are not systemically "undereducated") are often chronically exhausted and at the bottom of the financial (and power) heap. I have no solutions...and this is not my place to do so, had I any. When we walk the dogs at night, even late, and see all the kids still up and the little girls wearing plastic wedge shoes, etc...my heart aches. (But then I am old and everyone knows the elderly get crabby. , yadda, yadda)

Well, I certainly share your dismay (as I think you know, I'm old and crabby, too), but I don't agree with Stan's original assertion that the problem is that the US has created a system of affordable abundance. Because, if true, then the solution would be to...what...limit choices? And the only way to do that would be through the power of the law? How? Banning fast food? Governing what can and what cannot be sold to a free populace? Prohibiting fast food joints and companies that produce fat- and sugar-laden treats from advertising?

I do think that perhaps limiting choices in our school lunch programs might be a good place to start. I remember my school lunches back in the 50's. They're a far cry from what kids today are eating. So if finding a solution were up to me, I'd start by bringing back the lunchroom ladies, the ones that cooked actual meals. And I'd get rid of the Coke and candy and snack machines. As for education, most schools do have health classes - usually affiliated with the PE department. Or at least they did when I went to school. I'd try to put more emphasis on healthy choices. I know some elementary schools even have gardens that the kids tend and harvest.

I don't know. I suppose that I think, like most folks, that the problem is obvious.

The solution, not so much.

________

Edited May 15, 2011 by Jaymes (log)

[Moopheus]

Well, I certainly share your dismay (as I think you know, I'm old and crabby, too), but I don't agree with Stan's original assertion that the problem is that the US has created a system of affordable abundance. Because, if true, then the solution would be to...what...limit choices? And the only way to do that would be through the power of the law? How? Banning fast food? Governing what can and what cannot be sold to a free populace? Prohibiting fast food joints and companies that produce fat- and sugar-laden treats from advertising?

________

No, I'm not suggesting banning foods or even types of food service. Choice is good. But it does presume a certain ability to make choice. Education is indeed an issue. One item that's been discussed here from time to time is the virtual disappearance from our schools, for various reasons, of what used to be call "home economics" courses. Teaching kids things like rudimentary cooking skills and thinking about how to evaluate products, skills that would help them fend for themselves out in the world.

But on the policy level, the system tends to be skewed more to the benefit of the large food processors. The bulk of our farm subsidies go to corn, wheat and soybean growers, which means cheap inputs for feedlots and the producers of refined products like HFCS and vegetable oils used in factory foods. Vegetables and fruits are way, way, down on the list. Tobacco growers get more money from subsidy programs than fruits do.

[StanSherman]

I don't agree with Stan's original assertion that the problem is that the US has created a system of affordable abundance.

Not my assertion at all.

We were visiting some Amish yesterday. They eat a whole bunch of crap. Tons of sugar, lots of butter and fat, but the kids are not overweight. I really think physical activity has a huge play in this.

[Jaymes]

I don't agree with Stan's original assertion that the problem is that the US has created a system of affordable abundance.

Not my assertion at all.

You're right. My apologies. I was referring to this quote:

We have built a system that can produce, for many people, an abundance of food at low price. One of the affects that system we see around us every day--increases in obesity, diabetes, heart disease, and so on.

Upon closer inspection, I see that you were not the one that made that assertion.

Sorry.

Edited May 15, 2011 by Jaymes (log)

[Panaderia Canadiense]

OK, way back up there somewhere we've been talking about fast foods and their effects on the populace. I'd like to put in a kind word for the Andean notion of fast food.

Most US and Canadian small towns have at least one burger joint, whether it's a mom and pop organization or a chain, which is responsible for "food on the run" for that town. In the Andes, we have what are called "comedores" the best of which are simply holes in the wall with a couple of tables. What do they serve? Three course, home-cooking style meals (soup, main, dessert, fresh juice, all of it made fresh that day), in 5 minutes or less. When you say "fast food" to an Ecuadorian, they'll immediately think of their favourite comedor, not the burger chains (which are only in larger centers, and which are often more expensive.)

The mom and pop burger joint and the comedor have about the same overheads, but the food coming out of the comedor is head and shoulders above the burger joint in terms of balanced nutrition. I'd pay $1.50 for just the burger at the mom and pop (if I was very lucky - I'm Canadian and food prices up there are absolutely loco, as Darienne will attest), but for the same amount at the comedor I'd get a nice vegetable and potato soup, often with some kind of dumpling or a chunk of meat in it, followed by a plate of stewed or quick-grilled meat with rice, potatoes, and salad, and a nutritious dessert normally including large chunks of fresh fruit. This is washed down with fresh fruit juice that was made when you sat down and asked the restauranteer to feed you.

Granted, at the comedor I have absolutely no choice - I eat what they're making that day. However, the quality more than makes up for it, and even in the smallest towns there are three or four of these places, all of which will be offering something different. It's just a matter of asking the proprietor what's for lunch or dinner.

[annabelle]

I do think that perhaps limiting choices in our school lunch programs might be a good place to start. I remember my school lunches back in the 50's. They're a far cry from what kids today are eating. So if finding a solution were up to me, I'd start by bringing back the lunchroom ladies, the ones that cooked actual meals. And I'd get rid of the Coke and candy and snack machines. As for education, most schools do have health classes - usually affiliated with the PE department. Or at least they did when I went to school. I'd try to put more emphasis on healthy choices. I know some elementary schools even have gardens that the kids tend and harvest.

@ Jaymes

While I went to elementary school in the 1960's in California, I don't recall eating a school prepared lunch more than once or twice and they were okay. It was more the novelty than the food which I don't remember much about. I know that when we lived briefly in Bakersfield, the hot lunch kids were allowed to eat seconds if they wished to. Many of these children received the only hot meal of their day at school and, sadly, even today, that is still the case in some locales. I would further agree with you that the lack of recess periods and mandatory PE classes is a problem. I don't think that gardening is something that kids need to do at school. (My father-in-law owned an insurance concern and I shudder at the liability issues of kids with gardening tools.) We lag so far behind scholastically as it is, that I don't personally want to see anymore classroom time used for anything other than academics. Give the kiddos a summer project to grow a window box or something similar and report on it in the fall.

[heidih]

I would ask how much anything has really gone further south since the push for us to purchase canned goods and frozen TV dinners in the 60's? The marketers can throw the silly stuff at us - but we allocate our precious money as we see fit. We are also now armed with the internet as a quick information source.

I get more irritated by the constant barrage of antibacterial products and odor eating products than than the silly food ads. The Motts Medleys do send me through the roof. Giving your kid dissolved fiber in a fruit juice versus eating an apple? Fueled by an attractive actress and her kids??? Really how dumb are we?- I think we are smarter than that.

The politics of food subsidies and distribution are areas so complex that I would not even participate in a conversation about them. I imagine the worst and it is probably close to that.

I do know from personal observation in this large and very culturally diverse city (Los Angeles) that people seek out the good stuff at a reasonable cost. I have often posted about my joy at seeing people scramble for the fresh produce at the 99 cent store. My son and his young adult friends have been exposed to a diversity of food - at times they run into a McD but they also seek out the better Korean all you can eat Q's and hang out at the Mitsua food court or the local taco truck - not because we told them to, but because it tastes better

I also recently read One Big Table and Edible They give me hope.

[hathor]

Good morning.

I need a night to sleep on everyone's thoughtful comments.

Here's my issue: what on earth does food policy mean? It's become a catchall term for who knows what. Any agenda can be sheltered under the food policy umbrella.

Do you want kids to eat healthy lunches? What about dinner at home?

Do you want real vegetables subsidized instead of corn and soy?

How do you change a culture to want roast cauliflower instead of potato chips?

How do you get affordable protein on everyone's table?

How do consumers get protected from claims that pomegranate juice cures erectile dysfunction?

How do you keep consumers from eating too much sugar? too much salt?

Where is that study that says low salt is bad?

I could go and on, but you get the point. There can't be a meaningful 'food policy' dialogue. There can be a food movement, a food mission as general term. But it's tilting at windmills to talk about an over arching, utopian, food policy.