Garbage Disposal vs. Using Your Garbage Pail

[weinoo]

Fat Guy started a topic about how to use his new Franke garbage disposal or "food waste disposer" or whatever you call those things that sit underneath your sink and make a lot of noise, while ostensibly keeping your throwaway garbage bags light and clean.

I've lived in New York City for a long time, and you never really saw them in apartments here. Oh sure, people installed them, but it was usually surreptitiously; now it seems as though they're allowed but it's still up to individual buildings. When I lived in California, however, it was a different story, and I always seemed to have one. And we currently have one in our place in D.C.

But I never really use it; that is, I turn it on when I'm done doing the dishes to clear it out, but I don't throw large foodstuffs down there. My father used to use his religiously, and he wasn't a religious man; I think he just liked the sound it made as it ground up various bones and leaves and stems and whatever else he could shove down its maw.

But my question is simple: Is it better (environmentally) to grind stuff up and have it go down the pipe and probably flow into the East or Hudson River at some point, or is it better to throw it into a garbage bag and down the chute? And trust me, I know it's better to compost - it's just that composting in or around an NYC apartment tends to be frowned upon - both by neighbors and your super.

What's the scoop?

[Edward J]

Talk to any plumber or City water/sewer works people, and they'll tell you garbage disposals are BAAAAaaad, and many municipalities are banning them for household use. Commercial use has been banned in quite a few areas for some time now,(potato peelers are notoriously bad) with emphasis on a screen or baffle system to trap food particles before they hit the pipes so they can be disposed of in solid garbage.

Rotting produce, protein, and f.o.g.(fat, oil, and grease) down a 2 " pipe can't be good, and when it hits the mains, it's very bad, sticking on to pipe walls and constricting the flow.

It's just the wrong idea, and it gives many people a license to dump bacon or roast fat straight down the drain.

[heidih]

I am in California. My first two apartments were quaint and adorable and OLD and did not have them (Hermosa Beach and Redondo Beach) - there was a strainer in the sink, I was young, did not cook much - no biggie. When I married and we got a house there was the standard Insinkerator. I messed up on occasion Possibly the worst was when the giant rice cooker was pretty full and I did not want to save the rice. What made me put it down there I can only attribute to excessive alcohol consumption. It swelled up and created a huge stoggage. After that I stopped doing anything other than what Mitch mentions above. I turn it on as I finish up the dishes with lots of running water to make sure it flows properly. I do subscribe to the occasional half a lemon or other citrus just to jazz up the smell in the kitchen.

[JBailey]

They are "h...e...double match sticks" on septic systems. And they will do nothing good for your waste lines (the pipes, not around your middle).

[Pierogi]

Hrrrrrmmmm.....maybe I should've posted my answer to FG's post over here ...seem's more appropriate here. *MENTAL NOTE*...scan the entire first page of eG before you jump in and post...

Anywhooo, as I was saying OVER THERE, the plumbing is always going to be the weakest link in the set-up. If you've got new construction, hell, go for it. Run celery down there, it'll probably be OK. For a few years, at least. And for your plumbing, at least.

Ecologically, maybe not so much.

And, if you're like most of us, with, ummmmm, *vintage* pipes, there's already a huge build-up of crud in there for all those little bits and pieces to catch on and adhere to. And clog. Disposers do NOT liquify....they grind. You still get parts and pieces. I'm not so sure that's so great. And as noted, they're death to a septic system.

At least in a landfill, the stuff does eventually decompose. Not sure what happens to the sludge from the waste water.

Edited April 23, 2011 by Pierogi (log)

[Fat Guy]

This is pretty dense, but here's the report on the assessment New York City did ("NYC DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION The Impact of Food Waste Disposers in Combined Sewer Areas of New York City"). The conclusion seems to be that the impacts are minor and if anything save a little money on trash collection.

[Smithy]

This is pretty dense, but here's the report on the assessment New York City did ("NYC DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION The Impact of Food Waste Disposers in Combined Sewer Areas of New York City"). The conclusion seems to be that the impacts are minor and if anything save a little money on trash collection.

Interesting report. Did anything ever come of it? It was published in 1997.

A few things jumped out at me:

* The storm sewers and sanitary sewers are combined. Is this still true? The cost of disconnecting the systems is huge, but due to environmental-regulatory pressure the City of Duluth, MN has been doing just that.

* They projected a "minimal" change to water quality. However, the water in Flushing Bay failed to meet the summer water quality standards for dissolved oxygen 50% of the summer (when the standard applies) at the time the study was published, and the addition of garbage grinders was anticipated to lower the dissolved oxygen content slightly more. (Pages 11 and 12, for anyone interested.) In the Lake Superior basin that would be a probable kiss of death to any proposal with even a small degradation to water quality. It may be different in New York where the population density is so much greater.

*Looking at the project capital outlay for modifications to treatment plants, I'm guessing that it would be a tougher sell now than in 1997.

So...what happened? And thanks for posting the study. My questions notwithstanding, it puts garbage grinders in a better light than I'd have expected.

[Smithy]

Looks like I should have looked at the other topic more before asking my questions about whether the ban was lifted...sorry!

[technophile50]

Which one is better depends on the details of where you live.

Food waste going to the landfill generates methane by anaerobic decomposition: methane is more potent than CO2 (~25 times, depending on how its measured) as a greenhouse gas. It breaks down in the atmosphere to CO2 in a couple of decades, and the C source is vegetation, not fossil fuels, so over the long haul, its carbon neutral. If your local landfill captures the methane and uses it to replace fossil fuel (natural gas, diesel for generators), that's a win. Most landfills don't, but that's changing.

If it goes to a waste water treatment plant that uses anaerobic digestion and methane capture for energy generation, that's also a win.

If the WWTP uses settling tanks followed by activated sludge, some of it settles out in the tanks, and some goes into the aerated activated sludge process, increasing the Biological Oxygen Demand and requiring more air to be pumped into the process; the electricity used to aerate("activate") the sewage is a major cost for WWTPs, and usually generated by fossil fuels. They may truck the primary and excess activated sludge* to the landfill, where it generates methane, and uses fossil fuel to transport it (bad, especially if the methane isn't captured at the landfill). They may compost it and sell it as soil amendment (Milorganite; good), or use it directly as a (regulated; class A, B, etc) soil amendment on farms, where it decomposes aerobically in the soil(good - Hillsborough, NC, where I live, does this. Raleigh NC is experimenting using sludge on land to grow sunflowers for seed which is converted to biodiesel. I have ~1.5 acres, and a compost pile).

* Activated sludge systems recycle most of the sludge from the aeration basins back to the beginning, to seed the influent with beneficial bacteria, which capture the nutrients from the waste stream, and oxidize most - ammonia to N2, carbohydrates to CO2 - like using a sourdough starter.

[RobertCollins]

My link from FG's Query thread about Disposals

I like this subject a lot. I have told, in the link above what I do and what I have been told. I guess I really have no need of the things [disposer] but I do wonder if they may not have a place in some communities.

New York comes to mind. Having been there in the summer and smelled the streets as one walks by the piles of garbage bags, I'm surprised the health department doesn't shut down the whole city. If the ancient bldg. plumbing in some of those bldgs can't support the grinders, maybe it is time to update the systems. Other things I read do indicate that available quantities of fresh water used by the grinder systems may soon be more a concern than any other disposal issues.

Edited April 24, 2011 by RobertCollins (log)

[azurite]

I have some concerns about use of sludge on fields--heavy metals, antibiotics, etc. All of that is ending up in rivers, no reason to believe a certain percentage of the same compounds aren't ending up in the sludge.

I've never understood why landfill methane was regarded as a bad thing when it can be used as a source of energy. As far back as 1981, I remember reading an article stating that NYC was going to be building tertiary treatment sewage plants and that they'd be powered by landfill/sludge methane and no more worries about summer brown-outs & blackouts when the sewage plant gates open and let sewage flow into the LI Sound, etc. because of the lack of electricity. Guess that hasn't happened, not a surprise I suppose. The local landfill where I live now (small town) was closed several years ago and has pipes to release the methane. What a waste. There's still a recycling and drop off center there, so any electricity generated could be used.

[Moopheus]

My link from FG's Query thread about Disposals

I like this subject a lot. I have told, in the link above what I do and what I have been told. I guess I really have no need of the things [disposer] but I do wonder if they may not have a place in some communities.

Similarly, here Cambridge has been promoting composting pretty heavily--you can drop your food waste at the DPW if you don't have your own composter, and they sell below-cost composters. We'll probably get one this year; we're going to be converting some of our (tiny) yard space to more garden space.

[ScoopKW]

I've been reading this thread with great interest.

I bury all my organic waste in the garden -- I dig a deep hole, fill 2/3rds with waste, then cover.

I repeat this all year long, burying compostable stuff all over the garden. This method works so well, I wonder why people bother with buying a composter. Am I missing something? It just seems like an extra step to me.

(Again, I live in a very hot area of the planet. Maybe my climate lends itself to this method of "composting" while other areas do not.)

[heidih]

I've been reading this thread with great interest.

I bury all my organic waste in the garden -- I dig a deep hole, fill 2/3rds with waste, then cover.

I repeat this all year long, burying compostable stuff all over the garden. This method works so well, I wonder why people bother with buying a composter. Am I missing something? It just seems like an extra step to me.

(Again, I live in a very hot area of the planet. Maybe my climate lends itself to this method of "composting" while other areas do not.)

I thought it was a bit more complex than that to get a good compost. I think we want to have it accessible to dig into the garden where needed. Do you did it up and turn it in at other locations, or is it just decomposing?

[ScoopKW]

I thought it was a bit more complex than that to get a good compost. I think we want to have it accessible to dig into the garden where needed. Do you did it up and turn it in at other locations, or is it just decomposing?

I just bury it and forget it.

My garden is 10' x 30' -- I dig the holes in a haphazard checkerboard pattern. By the time I revisit a hole, the contents are black, loamy and surprisingly pleasant-smelling.

[heidih]

In my area the old closed landfill is still producing methane gas and it is sold to the power company. The land itself has been planted and is used as a horse and walking trail area.

In addition the Sanitation District that processes the waste water is completely "off the grid" due to their use of the resulting biogas and biosolids and they sell their excess energy to the power company. The biosolids are composted off-site and bagged to be sold to consumers as soil amendment (ex Kelloggs fertilizer company) and commercial farmers have some sort of arrangement to take it as well.

Makes me feel a bit better about it going down the drain or the pail, but the pail takes longer to break down and takes up a lot of space as landfill. Ideally I would compost the vegetal matter.

[Moopheus]

I repeat this all year long, burying compostable stuff all over the garden. This method works so well, I wonder why people bother with buying a composter. Am I missing something? It just seems like an extra step to me.

Composters are not absolutely necessary. At another place we had with a bigger yard, we just piled up stuff in a corner, mixed in some dry yard waste, and let it sit. But there is a certain convenience/management aspect to the composter. If I end up with more than I need, I know people who could use the excess.

[Kouign Aman]

My method is similar to ScoopKW.

I pick a small area of yard (~ 5'x5') that I wont plant that year. I make a small hole every day and put in the kitchen scraps, then cover. It takes about a year to completely do that space. I have to water it every so often or it mummifies instead of rotting. No problem w odor. One year, a raccoon kept digging stuff up, and we had a bit of a fly problem as a result, so I bury it a bit deeper now (~ 4" down). I get surprise volunteer plants the next spring, since its not a hot compost (the seeds arent killed), and that is always fun.

[sparrowgrass]

Chickens work. I rarely have smelly trash--the girls and the dogs take care of most everything.

My uncle always called the disposal the 'electric pig'.

[JHeald]

I'll admit, I didn't follow this post, but I saw this article in the news and immediately thought of this post.

Apparently, garbage disposers are more eco-friendly...

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/new-study-will-make-people-think-twice-about-how-they-discard-food-waste-2011-08-11?reflink=MW_news_stmp

[Joe Blowe]

I'll admit, I didn't follow this post, but I saw this article in the news and immediately thought of this post.

Apparently, garbage disposers are more eco-friendly...

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/new-study-will-make-people-think-twice-about-how-they-discard-food-waste-2011-08-11?reflink=MW_news_stmp

This "study" (*cough* press release *cough*) has been brought to you by InSinkErator®, the world's leading manufacturer of food waste disposers.

[heidih]

It costs a lot of money either way - process waste water or haul off trash and maintain a landfill and then deal with it when it is "full". Here in So Cal the waste water treaters are even considering how we can possibly re-use most of the treated water rather than releasing it into the ocean as we have no real water of our own. Very very complex subject.

Of course I favor composting and using it to grow your own or nourish your garden as the least intrusive individual way to deal with organic and compostable output.