Making 'Modernist' process cheeses at home

[jsmeeker]

Over in the Cooking with "Modernist Cuisine" topic, one of the most popular recipes for people to try out is the Mac and Cheese recipe. So far, it seems this has been a smash hit. What's the secret? It's taking real, good quality cheese and "processing" in such a way so that it will melt smooth and creamy like a commercial product that uses inferior cheese. But the cheese treatment doesn't stop there. "MC" also presents a method for making a cheese that can be sliced and put on a burger. I'm told this also makes an excellent grilled cheese sandwich.

So, what are the "tricks" that make this work? An ingredient to emulsify. And then an ingredient to thicken. But what different ingredients can be used here? And what makes you choose one over the other. Is sodium citrate the standard emulsifier? When it comes to thickening, what's the differene between kappa carrageenan and iota carrageenan? Do you even need this if your end result is the sauce for a mac and cheese?

I don't have "Modernist Cuisine". But I have become very interested in this subject. For me, I have two end products in mind. The first, is "queso". Anyone who spends any time in a Tex-Mex restaurant is familair with staple. It's cheese dip. Sometime thick. Sometimes thin. I'm not entirely sure how it's made in these resturants, but I speculate they are using velveeta or cheese whiz or something like that. In my mind, we can do better if we take GOOD cheese and apply some "modernist" methods to it. The second end product is grilled cheese sandwiches. I think this should be pretty straightforward by simply using the method for processing the cheese for the burger. But I'd like to understand that process a little better. See what issues there may be, what kinds of cheese would work, etc.

[mkayahara]

I strongly recommend checking out the cheese section in the Ideas in Food book. A lot of the ins and outs of the process are explained, and the barrier to entry is a lot lower than for Modernist Cuisine. Personally, I think their approach of using evaporated milk for their mac and cheese is sheer genius, for its wide accessibility. I bet you could apply the same approach to your queso fundido very easily.

[Andrew Hall]

I used the mac-n-cheese method w/ pure pecocrino romano to make a second sauce to layer on top of a ragu (which was served on eggplant fries instead of pasta.) I did have a problem with some coagulation which I solved by straining. Suspect I either added to fast or the acid level was too high for such a dry cheese. The result though was exactly what I wanted - the strong flavor of the cheese with a creamy texture distinct from the tomato/meat sauce. It also provided a persistence of flavor in the mouth more than just grating cheese on top.

A.

[avaserfi]

I am trying to tackle this topic as well. There is a discussion of cheese emulsification in Ideas in Food where they mention that both sodium citrate and sodium phosphate are commonly used melting salts in contemporary processed cheese - I believe they say that citric acid was used in the past. They recommend 1-2% of sodium citrate by weight of the cheese sauce.

I don't recall if their discussion directly speaks to gelling the newly made sauce as is done with the composed cheese slices or mac and cheese in Modernist Cuisine, but from my spotty online research I am still not sure if carrageenan is necessary unless freezer based storage is planned. Many seemingly successful recipes forgo the use of carrageenan, instead cooling the cheese mixture until it can be handled and using it right away (see Heston Blumenthal's processed cheese recipe or this recipe). I believe iota carrageenan stabilizes the emulsion at freezer temperatures - which probably makes the cheese easier to work with because of the gooey nature of processed cheese.

[jsmeeker]

I am trying to tackle this topic as well. There is a discussion of cheese emulsification in Ideas in Food where they mention that both sodium citrate and sodium phosphate are commonly used melting salts in contemporary processed cheese - I believe they say that citric acid was used in the past. They recommend 1-2% of sodium citrate by weight of the cheese sauce.

I don't recall if their discussion directly speaks to gelling the newly made sauce as is done with the composed cheese slices or mac and cheese in Modernist Cuisine, but from my spotty online research I am still not sure if carrageenan is necessary unless freezer based storage is planned. Many seemingly successful recipes forgo the use of carrageenan, instead cooling the cheese mixture until it can be handled and using it right away (see Heston Blumenthal's processed cheese recipe or this recipe). I believe iota carrageenan stabilizes the emulsion at freezer temperatures - which probably makes the cheese easier to work with because of the gooey nature of processed cheese.

For the mac and cheese, my impression was that the recipe for the process cheese makes more cheese than you really need to make the finished dish. I may be wrong, but it seems that once you have this "solid" block of cheese is that it becomces very easy to whip up a batch of mac and cheese. Is the carageenan doing anything else here? If you left it out and used all of the prcess cheese recipe to make the mac and cheese, would you get a different consistency to the cheese sauce?

I'm not looking to make mac and cheese. I want to make "queso". I think the recipe for the "mac and cheese" process cheese yields a sauce that is too thick. I would have to thin this out with something. (more on that later). But the idea of making a "large" batch of process cheese and store it so I can easily and quickly whip up a small serving is appealing. I'm just now wondering what issues I would run into if I eliminated cargeenan.

[avaserfi]

For the mac and cheese, my impression was that the recipe for the process cheese makes more cheese than you really need to make the finished dish. I may be wrong, but it seems that once you have this "solid" block of cheese is that it becomces very easy to whip up a batch of mac and cheese. Is the carageenan doing anything else here? If you left it out and used all of the prcess cheese recipe to make the mac and cheese, would you get a different consistency to the cheese sauce?

I'm not sure. Hopefully someone who has MC can answer this question?

I'm not looking to make mac and cheese. I want to make "queso". I think the recipe for the "mac and cheese" process cheese yields a sauce that is too thick. I would have to thin this out with something. (more on that later). But the idea of making a "large" batch of process cheese and store it so I can easily and quickly whip up a small serving is appealing. I'm just now wondering what issues I would run into if I eliminated cargeenan.

I believe the fondu recipe in Ideas would be a good starting point. I think they use slightly more liquid to cheese for the recipe than the MC mac and cheese recipe so it might be less thick. They also use no carrageenan, but don't talk about storage.

[bobag87]

We had great success making Queso Blanco using the MC basic recipe with white Mexican cheeses (Asadero and Chihuahua). We did not add any Karageenan as we made the queso in a sauce pan and trasferred it to a crock pot to remain heated, thus no need to gel it. We simply added the cheeses to the liquid and sodium citrate mixture and then added a large amount of roasted New Mexico green chile. Everyone loved it. I will note that the burning point of the queso is much lower than that made with milk and Velveeta and so we had to turn the crockpot way down to keep it from scorching.

[jsmeeker]

We had great success making Queso Blanco using the MC basic recipe with white Mexican cheeses (Asadero and Chihuahua). We did not add any Karageenan as we made the queso in a sauce pan and trasferred it to a crock pot to remain heated, thus no need to gel it. We simply added the cheeses to the liquid and sodium citrate mixture and then added a large amount of roasted New Mexico green chile. Everyone loved it. I will note that the burning point of the queso is much lower than that made with milk and Velveeta and so we had to turn the crockpot way down to keep it from scorching.

Great!

When you say the "MC basic recipe", I don't know what that means. Do they have a recipe for queso? I don't have the book.

[Phaz]

I'm really interested in this topic as well. I'm cooking for a friend's bachelor party who happens to be a mac 'n cheese nut. I thought I'd do a lot of different varieties. So far I have a list of some of the classics (lobster mac 'n cheese) and some non-traditional ones, like bleu cheese & bacon, cream cheese & lox, a mexican version with a mexican cheese blend topped with guac, sour cream and salsa, and a mediterranean version with shrimp, olives, feta, etc. Too pull this off I"m going to need to use lots of different cheeses and I would assume some different techniques, such as for the bleu cheese & cream cheese. I'm curious how I can keep the bleu cheese flavor and make it creamy without making it over powering (maybe mixing it with another cheese).

[jsmeeker]

For refernce, I think this is a tweaked version of the "mac and cheese" cheese recipe. I got it from this post

Whisk & simmer

• 100g water
  
• 75g (wheat) beer
  
• 10g sodium citrate
  
• 4.5g salt
  
• 1.25g iota carrageenan
  

Grate and combine over low heat:

• 140g aged gouda (was 200g)
  
• 145g aged cheddar (was 80g)
  

Stir until melted/emulsified. Pour into container; bring to room temp; freeze. Just before serving, pull it from the freezer and grate/shred 160g.

Boil over high heat:

• 300g water
  
• 100g macaroni
  
• 1g salt [down from 24.g]
  

Don't drain it. When pasta is al dente, add cheese and heat through until smooth and combined.

Clearly, for the queso, we skip the pasta part. I am guessing you can go straight from the "melted and emulsified" step and proceed directly to adding in the flavors you want for the queso. But the question is, at this point, how thick is the sauce? Is it too thick? If I wanted to thin it out, what would I use? More beer? Water? Milk?

[LoftyNotions]

For refernce, I think this is a tweaked version of the "mac and cheese" cheese recipe. I got it from this post

Whisk & simmer

• 100g water
  
• 75g (wheat) beer
  
• 10g sodium citrate
  
• 4.5g salt
  
• 1.25g iota carrageenan
  

Grate and combine over low heat:

• 140g aged gouda (was 200g)
  
• 145g aged cheddar (was 80g)
  

Stir until melted/emulsified. Pour into container; bring to room temp; freeze. Just before serving, pull it from the freezer and grate/shred 160g.

Boil over high heat:

• 300g water
  
• 100g macaroni
  
• 1g salt [down from 24.g]
  

Don't drain it. When pasta is al dente, add cheese and heat through until smooth and combined.

Clearly, for the queso, we skip the pasta part. I am guessing you can go straight from the "melted and emulsified" step and proceed directly to adding in the flavors you want for the queso. But the question is, at this point, how thick is the sauce? Is it too thick? If I wanted to thin it out, what would I use? More beer? Water? Milk?

I think that sauce thickness is going to depend totally on the serving temperature. Using proportions similar to those listed above, at room temperature I've achieved a consistency that I'd guess to be slightly too thick for queso. It's still too liquid to grate, but solid enough that you'd have problems breaking chips. I'd either use slightly less carrageenan or add more liquid. As far as what to use, go by your tastes. Make up a batch, take a little bit out and let it cool to serving temperature. If it's too thick, titrate the remainder with some liquid (I'd go for the beer )

I'd probably try cutting the carrageenan by one third or one half as a starting point otherwise.

HTH,

Larry

Edited for spelling

Edited April 20, 2011 by LoftyNotions (log)

[jsmeeker]

Thanks larry. That helps. At this point, I think I need to get a small scale that can measure down to .1 or .01 grams. And a "kit" of these moderinist ingrendients and just fool around with it.

I'm still curious about the role of the crageenan. Maybe it's not needed if I always make a full batch 'from scratch'. But I know I would like to be able to whip up a large batch of the cheese part so I can save that (fridge? freezer?) so it actually stays stable. Being a single guy, this is actually pretty important. I would be nice to be able to quickly whip up a small batch for a snack.

[bobag87]

By basic recipe I mean the Mac and Cheese recipe above. We just did not add the Carrageenan. I also second the comment above that thickness is dependent on temperature. For our queso we served it warm and it was not too thick. I definitely thickens as it cools so if you are looking for a thinner texture at room temp, you may need more liquid.

[Norm Matthews]

I have a question. If you want a cheese sauce why not just do a variation on a Mornay sauce?

[emannths]

Two potential reasons for including iota carrageenan: 1) it helps the stability of milk proteins, esp in cold storage, and 2) it has a dramatic effect on mouthfeel, combining with start to give the sensation of body that is "four times that of using starch alone." (source, p9)

Why not mornay? So that you can minimize the amount of starch and maximize the amount of cheese to intensify the cheese flavor.

Edit to add: One more advantage to using iota carrageenan: it forms a thixotropic gel. This means that it flows under shear (it acts like a liquid when you stir it), but thickens considerably when the shear load is removed (doesn't flow off the noodles while it's sitting on the plate). The benefit, of course, is that your cheese sauce sticks more tenaciously to the pasta without actually "feeling" thicker.

Edited April 20, 2011 by emannths (log)

[LoftyNotions]

Thanks larry. That helps. At this point, I think I need to get a small scale that can measure down to .1 or .01 grams. And a "kit" of these moderinist ingrendients and just fool around with it.

I'm still curious about the role of the crageenan. Maybe it's not needed if I always make a full batch 'from scratch'. But I know I would like to be able to whip up a large batch of the cheese part so I can save that (fridge? freezer?) so it actually stays stable. Being a single guy, this is actually pretty important. I would be nice to be able to quickly whip up a small batch for a snack.

I'm not sure how much stabilization is from the carrageenan and how much is from the sodium citrate. My guess is that a lot of the stabilization is from the citrate and the carrageenan is mostly for thickening.

It might be worth an experiment with some cheap cheese. Worst case, you get some gritty thawed cheese you have to suffer through alone.

I bought a portable scale that reads to 100ths of a gram. It has been satisfactory for my purposes. I think it was about $25.00 US with shipping.

I've been using a much higher proportion of Cheddar than listed above. It doesn't seem to have much effect on the final product other than flavor.

Larry

Edit to fix transposed letters

Edited April 20, 2011 by LoftyNotions (log)

[emannths]

Has anyone tried using some store-bought processed cheese as a source of "additives?" Maybe you could throw in one kraft single along with your good cheddar and it would supply all the emulsifying and thickening power you'd need...?

[jsmeeker]

By basic recipe I mean the Mac and Cheese recipe above. We just did not add the Carrageenan. I also second the comment above that thickness is dependent on temperature. For our queso we served it warm and it was not too thick. I definitely thickens as it cools so if you are looking for a thinner texture at room temp, you may need more liquid.

It would most certainly be served warm, jsut like a traditional quseo. They get too thick when they cool, too.

Why not mornay? So that you can minimize the amount of starch and maximize the amount of cheese to intensify the cheese flavor.

exactly. The "modernist" way addreses issues with the traditional way. It's why the "modernist" mac and cheese is so successful. There isn't a lot of stuff that ISN'T cheese to get in the way,

[bobag87]

I didn't want to offend anyone by noting that serving cold queso can get one shot down here in Texas.

[jsmeeker]

The challenge is how to keep queso warm while on the table.

[Tri2Cook]

I'm not sure how much stabilization is from the carrageenan and how much is from the sodium citrate. My guess is that a lot of the stabilization is from the citrate and the carrageenan is mostly for thickening.

Sounds reasonable, especially when you consider Heston Blumenthal's version he made for his "perfect burger" in his second In Search of Perfection book didn't contain carrageenan at all. His recipe consisted of manzanilla sherry infused with garlic, peppercorns and fresh thyme, sodium citrate and comte cheese. Linda from the Playing with Fire and Water blog also did a version a couple years ago with sake, sodium citrate and parmesan. Both work fine as a "processed cheese slice" for sandwiches, melting on burgers, etc. without the addition of carrageenan. I'm wondering if the primary role of the carrageenan comes into play after the cheese is melted into the hot water and pasta.

[LoftyNotions]

I'm not sure how much stabilization is from the carrageenan and how much is from the sodium citrate. My guess is that a lot of the stabilization is from the citrate and the carrageenan is mostly for thickening.

Sounds reasonable, especially when you consider Heston Blumenthal's version he made for his "perfect burger" in his second In Search of Perfection book didn't contain carrageenan at all. His recipe consisted of manzanilla sherry infused with garlic, peppercorns and fresh thyme, sodium citrate and comte cheese. Linda from the Playing with Fire and Water blog also did a version a couple years ago with sake, sodium citrate and parmesan. Both work fine as a "processed cheese slice" for sandwiches, melting on burgers, etc. without the addition of carrageenan. I'm wondering if the primary role of the carrageenan comes into play after the cheese is melted into the hot water and pasta.

I haven't seen Heston's recipe, but I'd guess that the fluid quantity as a percentage of the cheese in his recipe is lower than in the mac & cheese recipe above, which is close to 60 percent of the cheese weight. If so, that could account for not using carrageenan.

The unanswered question for me at this point is what happens if you freeze it without carrageenan.

Larry

[Tri2Cook]

Heston's recipe would use* 250g sherry, 8g sodium citrate and 425g comte. Linda's would use* 280g sake, 8g sodium citrate and 400g parmesan. Without doing any actual math, that's pretty close to the MC proportions.

*Neither are the actual numbers given but both are the exact same proportions as the original recipes.

[Phaz]

Heston's recipe would use* 250g sherry, 8g sodium citrate and 425g comte. Linda's would use* 280g sake, 8g sodium citrate and 400g parmesan. Without doing any actual math, that's pretty close to the MC proportions.

*Neither are the actual numbers given but both are the exact same proportions as the original recipes.

All the recipes seem to use some kind of alcohol. Does anyone know definitively if that's just for taste or some other important part to the process?

[LoftyNotions]

Heston's recipe would use* 250g sherry, 8g sodium citrate and 425g comte. Linda's would use* 280g sake, 8g sodium citrate and 400g parmesan. Without doing any actual math, that's pretty close to the MC proportions.

*Neither are the actual numbers given but both are the exact same proportions as the original recipes.

So roughly 60 percent liquid for Heston and 70 percent liquid for Linda. The only difference in the bulk ingredients (liquid-wise) seems to be the drier cheeses used. It'd be interesting to see if those recipes produce a sliceable cheese product. These two recipes use about half of the sodium citrate of the mac & cheese recipe also.

I might have to sacrifice a chunk o' cheese tomorrow to at least answer the freeze / thaw question.

Larry