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Why home-oven technology has failed to keep pace


Fat Guy

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One also has to remember that most people don't really "cook" - they just follow recipes. And if the recipe isn't written for one of the new appliances, they won't use it because they don't know how to adapt it.

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I think it's pretty obvious that, while it may be true as a generality that people are putting fancier stoves in their homes, it's also true as a generality that people are doing less and less cooking and their expertise and experience in cooking is becoming less and less. Yes, there may be an increase in people who have a great interest in food and cooking. And some of them account for some of the money being spent on Viking stoves and stainless steel refrigerators. But I don't think it's new news that the great majority of those Viking stove owners are still buying already-roasted chickens at the local megamarket, etc. I recall being flabbergasted to see that a company was doing a brisk business in packaged envelopes of "salad add-ins" you could unzip and dump onto a pile of lettuce, like it was too hard to dice up some chicken breast and tomatoes.

That products like these are flying off the shelves, and that roasted chickens and other fully prepared foods are commonplace in supermarkets whereas they were virtually unknown in that context 20 years ago are a sure indication that most people just aren't doing much real cooking these days. Honestly, even I am doing a lot less cooking than I used to do, and I'm trying to figure out ways to cut down on my time in the kitchen. At some point, I realized that if I was getting home at 7:30, spending 90 minutes getting dinner on the table, eating dinner and then cleaning up... well, I didn't have much time left in my average day to have a family life. And so I bought a chest freezer and started looking for ways that I could make my own reheatable prepared foods for dinner so I could have food I liked on the table in 30 minutes with minimal mess and cleanup. And I'm someone who lives cooking and has a dedication to cooking and cuisine. Someone else is just going to load up the freezer with stuff from Trader Joe's that they can bung in the oven to reheat. You don't need a combi-oven for that -- not that any of these people would have the slightest idea how to use one anyway.

To get back to the topic of ovens, this is all compounded by the fact that the oven is the least-used cooking apparatus in the American kitchen. Many of the things one cooks in the oven are the foods that are often considered the most mysterious and challenging to cook well: baked goods, roasts, etc. (casseroles having fallen out of favor, at least in the demographic likely to have an expensive stove).

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I'm sure there have been studies, so maybe I'll go do some research, but my impression is that we're seeing two trends: one in the direction of less cooking overall one in the direction of very advanced cooking that nobody was doing 20 years ago. There are so many things we can point to, e.g., the arrival of the Sous-Vide Supreme, that are counter to what is probably the general trend. The audience for premium kitchen appliances is, I imagine, a mix of people who are serious and people who are not -- that's the same across many consumer categories.

I wonder which way the cookbook argument cuts. You'd think that the lack of, say, consumer CVap cookbooks would represent opportunity. Then again the equipment manufacturers aren't really in the publishing business. So I don't know.

Steven A. Shaw aka "Fat Guy"
Co-founder, Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, sshaw@egstaff.org
Proud signatory to the eG Ethics code
Director, New Media Studies, International Culinary Center (take my food-blogging course)

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To get back to the topic of ovens, this is all compounded by the fact that the oven is the least-used cooking apparatus in the American kitchen. Many of the things one cooks in the oven are the foods that are often considered the most mysterious and challenging to cook well: baked goods, roasts, etc. (casseroles having fallen out of favor, at least in the demographic likely to have an expensive stove).

The unused oven is a fact.

I know several appliance repairpersons who have told me that their busiest time of year begins with panic phone calls a few days before Thanksgiving -- when the owners realize their ovens do not work!

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I don't know about rural buyers, but I can say from first-hand experience that plenty of suburban buyers purchase premium European appliances.

I'd love to learn more about these next-generation European appliances. A lot of US kitchens are wired for 220, so with a little effort it may be possible to use some of them here.

Yes, but you're talking about the suburbs of a major metro area. Try 15-20 miles outside a second tier Sunbelt city (which is a huge swath of the US population these days), and Euro appliance servicing is nonexistent. Many people I know can't get a decent Viking service guy, much less Miele.

Good service guys are few and far between. We have an old Vulcan that is just wonderful. 6 burners, convection and conventional oven, flattop, broiler...a big black monster. When the regulator broke on the oven it took three visits from three different service companies to figure it out. Sheesh.

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Pierogi - I doubt that the average home cook has the slightest idea that non-standard tools, equipment and techniques exist, let alone that they might offer benefits. I've seen how technology averse most people are whenever they are dealing with the unfamiliar. Math and science frighten and bore people here. The only way microwave ovens ever sold was through dumbed down simplicity and convenience. I hope you're right about the kitchen of the future, but note that in the US the best cell phones we have would be tossed out as garbage in much of the rest of the world.

slkinsey - I don't think people are putting in fancier stoves. I think people are putting in fancier looking stoves. The actual functions are largely unchanged. Maybe they offer more automation, programs in the interface, but actual improvements in temperature control, steam, real broiling capacity, how they cook are rare. But, maybe there's hope to be seen in the widening adoption of convection ovens?

Fat Guy - I think the demographic for people who really like to cook and who actively seek out new information, tools and techniques might be some very small percent like 1 or two persons in 10,000. Over the whole population in the US that's 30,000 to 60,000. If those folks totally replace every kitchen item every ten years, that's a market for three to six thousand high performance ovens (or whatever) a year for a few dozen makers to fight over. My guess is that the size of the market is too small for most companies to take a run at. I hope I'm wrong.

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On another thread, I mentioned an Electrolux Mini Combi Oven. This is a counter top machine, but does require plugging into a NEMA 5-20 outlet. This is one step down from some of the machines such as a CVAP or a Rational. As I noted, this is an expensive bit of equipment, but it does seem to do many of the things discussed here. It is not connected to a water line, but instead has a built-in tank.

"A cloud o' dust! Could be most anything. Even a whirling dervish.

That, gentlemen, is the whirlingest dervish of them all." - The Professionals by Richard Brooks

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I totally want one of those. How do you get a NEMA 5-20 outlet?

Steven A. Shaw aka "Fat Guy"
Co-founder, Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, sshaw@egstaff.org
Proud signatory to the eG Ethics code
Director, New Media Studies, International Culinary Center (take my food-blogging course)

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From what I understand, your regular grounded plug is a Nema 5-15. I think the Nema 5-20 is a step up on grounding and can draw 20 amps. Look at this Nema 5 explanation. I think you can plug a regular plug and a Nema 5-20 in the same socket, but what I think they want you to do is have a dedicated 20 amp service from your breaker box to the outlet. As Mike said, have an electrician look over your service and see if it is possible at your home.

"A cloud o' dust! Could be most anything. Even a whirling dervish.

That, gentlemen, is the whirlingest dervish of them all." - The Professionals by Richard Brooks

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I wonder which way the cookbook argument cuts. You'd think that the lack of, say, consumer CVap cookbooks would represent opportunity.

More likely it represents the lack of a market? Is there any consumer CVap market?

If you want to develop a mass market for new appliances, you've got to get it on Martha Stewart and HGTV.

What do these things really offer for Joe McMansionite? Convenience? Less cost? Aspirational consumerism?

"I think it's a matter of principle that one should always try to avoid eating one's friends."--Doctor Dolittle

blog: The Institute for Impure Science

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Back when I was looking at stoves, I noticed a few combination microwave/conventional ovens, including the GE Advantium line that used microwave+halogen lamps. Whirlpool also has their SpeedCook model that combines halogen/microwave/steam. Haven't seen these discussed much online or elsewhere. It looks like these vendors were trying to position these as the next big thing in oven technology, but then it never really caught on. Perhaps they are a bit gun-shy now in promoting another next big thing in oven technology...

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I am currently looking for a 30" gas range to replace the one I have which was in our house when we bought it and has to be from the 70's I imagine. I cook more than the average person and even use the oven. I just can't in any way imagine a $4,500 Wolf range will serve me better than a $900 one from Sears. Would it increase the resale value of my home? Without a full kitchem remodel I'm not sure it would. I just don't need a $4,500 range. I just cannot imagine that it would mean the food I cook would taste better. I just can't

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Depending on the range, there are a LOT of things you can do with a Wolf-type over a Sears-type. First of all, and mainly, the Wolf stove is going to be able to crank out way more BTUs than the Sears stove and have a larger burner radius. This means that you can use a larger pan, get it hotter, throw in more food and have way better recovery. Many of the Wolf-type stoves have an option where you can get a center burner that's "extra high heat" for wok cooking, something that frankly just isn't possible on a Sears-type stove. In addition, many of the Wolf-type stoves have things like ceramic infrared broilers that make the broilers on regular residential stoves look like a joke.

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I am currently looking for a 30" gas range to replace the one I have which was in our house when we bought it and has to be from the 70's I imagine. I cook more than the average person and even use the oven. I just can't in any way imagine a $4,500 Wolf range will serve me better than a $900 one from Sears. Would it increase the resale value of my home? Without a full kitchem remodel I'm not sure it would. I just don't need a $4,500 range. I just cannot imagine that it would mean the food I cook would taste better. I just can't

There must be an array of units priced between $900 and $4500. Get full spec. sheets, look at the warranty and service information, talk to people, read reviews, look at and handle the units in the showrooms. You can certainly get something that works for you without going into the four-figure range, but research is a must.

Michaela, aka "Mjx"
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mscioscia@egstaff.org

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It's possible to cook amazing food on a $400 stove that puts out 9,000 BTU/hr per burner. (It's also possible to find $800 stoves with at least one burner that pushes up into the 16,000 BTU/hr range that every Wolf burner produces.) But it's more pleasurable to cook on a heavy-duty range. Such a unit is also more pleasurable to look at. Depending on one's resources and hierarchy of values, those things can matter more or less.

Steven A. Shaw aka "Fat Guy"
Co-founder, Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, sshaw@egstaff.org
Proud signatory to the eG Ethics code
Director, New Media Studies, International Culinary Center (take my food-blogging course)

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Depending on the range, there are a LOT of things you can do with a Wolf-type over a Sears-type. First of all, and mainly, the Wolf stove is going to be able to crank out way more BTUs than the Sears stove and have a larger burner radius. This means that you can use a larger pan, get it hotter, throw in more food and have way better recovery. Many of the Wolf-type stoves have an option where you can get a center burner that's "extra high heat" for wok cooking, something that frankly just isn't possible on a Sears-type stove. In addition, many of the Wolf-type stoves have things like ceramic infrared broilers that make the broilers on regular residential stoves look like a joke.

I understand what a wolf range has. But in my house with the cooking I do I cannot justify the expense. The issue to me is one of value. Lots of people drive Mercedes and Lexus. I am lucky enough that i could afford both a Wolf range and a Mercedes if I want them. But I don't see the value in either one of them.

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Depending on the range, there are a LOT of things you can do with a Wolf-type over a Sears-type. First of all, and mainly, the Wolf stove is going to be able to crank out way more BTUs than the Sears stove and have a larger burner radius. This means that you can use a larger pan, get it hotter, throw in more food and have way better recovery. Many of the Wolf-type stoves have an option where you can get a center burner that's "extra high heat" for wok cooking, something that frankly just isn't possible on a Sears-type stove. In addition, many of the Wolf-type stoves have things like ceramic infrared broilers that make the broilers on regular residential stoves look like a joke.

I understand what a wolf range has. But in my house with the cooking I do I cannot justify the expense. The issue to me is one of value. Lots of people drive Mercedes and Lexus. I am lucky enough that i could afford both a Wolf range and a Mercedes if I want them. But I don't see the value in either one of them.

Well, that of course is another story entirely. I can think of a great many things I'd like to do on a pro-style stove that I can't do on my Crapmaster 9000 NYC apartment stove. If I were able to get one, I'd do it without hesitation. But these things of course come down to preference, priorities, practices, etc. As a generality, it's true that as one gets into higher quality "things" that you start spending a lot more money on increasingly small improvements. The upgrade from a $1,000 stove to a $4,000 stove is not as much as from a $250 stove to a $1,000 stove.

Different people spend money on different things that are important to them. I'd much rather, for example, have a $5,000 stove than spend $5,000 on a fancy vacation. But there are plenty of people who feel exactly the opposite. Neither of us is wrong.

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Another thought is to visit various commercial kitchen equipment stores to learn if they have any gently used stoves. I have seen many that don't look like they were abused and ancient. Maybe an interim step like this would be a decent compromise.

"A cloud o' dust! Could be most anything. Even a whirling dervish.

That, gentlemen, is the whirlingest dervish of them all." - The Professionals by Richard Brooks

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In my experience the "luxury" trade is always there but they do not always select ranges because of newer technology, but because of so-called "status" or whatever you want to call it,

For consumers who can't justify spending a lot of money on a range or ovens and cooktops, they have to settle for what they can afford.

When these new things come onto the market they are often priced out of the reach of most consumers.

I got my first microwave - the Amana Radarange - in 1967 and it cost $500. and at that time you could buy a new car for $3000.

For several years I had a commercial gas convection oven (Blodgett).

However I had also made a provision for electric ovens if needed. When I had the kitchen addition done, I had a new electric panel and separate circuits dedicated so if I ever wanted to add electric ovens I could. It's cheaper to do it ahead of time instead of having to add on and re-wire later.

Not all people want the newest technology, some want the more traditional cooking methods, which can be much more expensive. A friend who lives in Mammoth has an AGA that is also an auxiliary heating unit for part of the house.

Another friend who lives in Malibu recently did a kitchen reno and now has an enormous La Cornue range that has two ovens, one gas and one electric. Its also got regular gas burners, a "French" top a gas grill and electric burners. I saw it only a month ago but can't recall the exact configuration.

She doesn't cook, she has a live-in housekeeper/cook but loves to show off the new kitchen and talks as if she were in there all the time.

You can buy a luxury car for what that range cost. But it sure is pretty. She calls it "Bahama Blue" because it is the color of the ocean around the Bahamas. Frankly, to me it looks like the aqua that was popular in the 50s and early 60s.

Incidentally, her cook is not all that thrilled with the new range. She was perfectly happy with the "old" (6 years) Viking range and knew how it worked. A technician had to spend several days showing her how to use the La Cornue range - it is not intuitive.

I like new technology but I seldom buy the newest thing to appear. I wait for the bugs to be worked out and get the second or third generation.

With the Radarange, I had wanted one for a couple of years but the first ones were huge and cost close to 3K and I couldn't see spending that much. The Amana seemed like a bargain, plus they sent a woman out to teach me how to use it.

Edited by andiesenji (log)

"There are, it has been said, two types of people in the world. There are those who say: this glass is half full. And then there are those who say: this glass is half empty. The world belongs, however, to those who can look at the glass and say: What's up with this glass? Excuse me? Excuse me? This is my glass? I don't think so. My glass was full! And it was a bigger glass!" Terry Pratchett

 

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I've been shopping them for a while. And around a grand is what I would like to spend. I do want at least one high output burner. Five burners would be nice but not necessary. I'm sort of undecided on a convection oven. So, in my price range one of the standard commercial brands, sears, ge. etc are more what I am looking at than a wolf. Last year one of my local stores had a bertozzi leftover on sale for a very resonable price. I would have gotten it except for the oven being very small.

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Until a couple of days ago, I had never even heard of a CVAP. When I did, I thought they were talking about that machine people use to sleep at night to prevent sleep apnea. I've heard of "Combi" ovens, but only have a vauge idea of what it is. I think they use steam in some way? I dunno. To me, "fancy" would be convenction. Really fancy oven would be one where I could press a button and inject steam into the oven (for baking bread)

This topic is pretty nice, though. I really need to follow through on all of these links and understan what all this stuff is.

Jeff Meeker, aka "jsmeeker"

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This oven does everythingI want top/bottom, fan, gril,low temp, temp probe, steam (although not as well as a dedicated and a few others. Combined with a combination microwave/convection and a Sous Vide Supreme I'm sorted.

I'm amazed that this item exists. It sort of changes the premise of my inquiry.

Steven A. Shaw aka "Fat Guy"
Co-founder, Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, sshaw@egstaff.org
Proud signatory to the eG Ethics code
Director, New Media Studies, International Culinary Center (take my food-blogging course)

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